Confucian Philosophy Discussion Thread

[Garsai]

Confucian Philosophy Discussion Thread
:: by Garsai ::

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Welcome one and all to the Confucian Philosophy Discussion Thread, where we discuss everything being pertinent to Confucian philosophy and ethic.

The ethical system of Confucianism has much to commend it because virtue is always something highly desirable, both in an individual and a society. This includes emphasis on family values, such as devotion and obedience to and reverence of the elders of the family by the younger members of kin. Confucianism deals primarily with moral conduct and ethical living and is often categorized as an ethical system, rather than a religion. It has had a monumental impact upon the life, social structure, and political philosophy of China.

More about Confucianism can be found here.

Some subjects that would pertain to the discussion include:

- The political philosophy of Confucianism and how it can serve as a framework for governments across the globe

- The ethics and the common human behavior that are emphasized in Confucian philosophy and how society should implement the system for the betterment of mankind.

[Farnhamia]

Propose some points for discussion, why don't you? Maybe give you considered opinion or examples or why you like this philosophy.

[Garsai]

Propose some points for discussion, why don't you? Maybe give you considered opinion or examples or why you like this philosophy.

That has been effectuated, thank you for your input.

[USS Monitor]

Confucianism works in the sense that you can build a stable society on it, but that doesn't mean you should. The social obligations can be painful for people to deal with if the role they're assigned is incompatible with their nature.

[Venerable Bede]

Confucianism works in the sense that you can build a stable society on it, but that doesn't mean you should. The social obligations can be painful for people to deal with if the role they're assigned is incompatible with their nature.

Yes, my nature is to be the king, of course. It is very painful that I'm not a king, because not being the king is incompatible with my nature.

[USS Monitor]

Confucianism works in the sense that you can build a stable society on it, but that doesn't mean you should. The social obligations can be painful for people to deal with if the role they're assigned is incompatible with their nature.

Yes, my nature is to be the king, of course. It is very painful that I'm not a king, because not being the king is incompatible with my nature.

You're going to have some issues with that under most social systems, not only Confucianism. But some people have more reasonable wishes, like just not wanting to let their parents control their life.

[Venerable Bede]

Yes, my nature is to be the king, of course. It is very painful that I'm not a king, because not being the king is incompatible with my nature.

You're going to have some issues with that under most social systems, not only Confucianism. But some people have more reasonable wishes, like just not wanting to let their parents control their life.

It's not about my "wishes," damn it! How dare you! It's about my nature!

[Imperium Centralium]

A great social control method.

[USS Monitor]

You're going to have some issues with that under most social systems, not only Confucianism. But some people have more reasonable wishes, like just not wanting to let their parents control their life.

It's not about my "wishes," damn it! How dare you! It's about my nature!

Well, then you'll just have to find somebody to rule over, someone whose nature is to submit to kings. I'm afraid such people are becoming increasingly rare due to the spread of democratic ideals.

[Venerable Bede]

It's not about my "wishes," damn it! How dare you! It's about my nature!

Well, then you'll just have to find somebody to rule over, someone whose nature is to submit to kings. I'm afraid such people are becoming increasingly rare due to the spread of democratic ideals.

Ideals are changing their natures?

[Garsai]

Regardless, the system serves as a framework for how society as we know it should function, a system to which I hold high respect to.

[Tuthina]

Yes, my nature is to be the king, of course. It is very painful that I'm not a king, because not being the king is incompatible with my nature.

You're going to have some issues with that under most social systems, not only Confucianism. But some people have more reasonable wishes, like just not wanting to let their parents control their life.

That depends a lot of how one interprets the idea of filial piety in the context of Confucianism. In this particular example, the Classic of Filial Piety, supposedly one of the records of Confucius' own words, states that if parents are to impose what is unjust upon the children, the moral action for the children would be to dissuade the parents - after all, the greatest immorality in the context of filial piety is to let one's parents to act immoral. In such case, while filial piety still require the children to be polite and caring towards the parents, it also say that if the parents in question persist in forcing children to act against morality and justice despite protest and dissuasion, then the parents themselves have forfeited the parent-child relations first, and thus the children would not have a moral duty to follow their guide - in fact, it would be immoral not to oppose their injustice.

Obvious, the concept of filial piety is twisted into imposing blind obedience probably since its inception, particularly reinforced by the analogy of monarchs being parents and subjects being children. Nevertheless, if we go by Confucius himself, his response is allegedly proclaiming "what kind of talk is this?" (or, in modern vernacular, "what kind of bullcrap is this?"). While he has been dead for two millennia, and his idea on many things turn out to be incorrect, perhaps this is something that we can still learn from him.

[Ashmoria]

seems to me that Confucianism is great for stability but terrible for innovation. innovation is essential in the modern world.

[Tuthina]

seems to me that Confucianism is great for stability but terrible for innovation. innovation is essential in the modern world.

Not necessarily. What Confucianism upholds, at least ideally, is moderation and a care of human elements. Granted, that does mean that the implementation of innovation will occasionally be limited, but considering the increasing impact and irreversibility of modern technology and what seems to lie ahead, is that really that bad a thing? It might be better to think of it not as, say, a total ban on genetic engineering and biotechnology in the name of love for nature, but more that safety precautions and care need to complement innovation and technology themselves in order for us not to become victim of what we have created.

Another relevant aspects is the Confucian focus on tradition, which is by definition a conservative stance. What that ultimately entails, though, is the sense of harmony and solidarity. While it can be considered a conformist thought, I do not think the only way to interpret it is to hold onto the ways of our ancestors despite impracticality. Perhaps a way to think of it is like modern festivals with religious roots. Confucius would probably argue that these festivals, like Christmas and Easter, should still be observed as it serve as a binding force for your family and maybe friends. However, that does not mean you have to go to church or celebrate them in a very pious manner - as long as it brings your family and/or friends together in a harmonious way, the details does not exactly matter.

[Old Tyrannia]

An appreciation for the philosophy of Confucianism underlies much of my fondness for Far Eastern cultures. I have read the Analects, and they were quite significant in shaping my ethical and political beliefs. I strive to fulfil the ideal of the Confucian "gentleman" or jūnzǐ (君子).

I think Confucianism is often misconstrued in the West as fundamentally authoritarian and anti-innovation, as a consequence of the way it was wielded by successive East Asian governments as a way of bolstering their authority, emphasising filial piety and absolute loyalty to the ruler. In reality beneath the Confucian ideology of various Chinese dynasties and their sinicised neighbours there was a strong legalist influence, which was a more authoritarian and pragmatic ideology. Actually reading the Analects shows that Confucius' ideal was for reciprocal relationships between the "superior" (parents, teachers, elder siblings and rulers) and "subordinate" (children, students, younger siblings and officials). Confucian officials through history have been praised for speaking up and pointing out what they saw as mistakes on the part of their leaders, this being seen as a form of great loyalty; furthermore, Confucius believed that the bes government was the one that focused on cultivating morality in the populace, not imposing order through strict laws and punishment. Confucius was not afraid to criticise or protest against leaders who acted immorally or incorrectly in his view.

[Ashmoria]

seems to me that Confucianism is great for stability but terrible for innovation. innovation is essential in the modern world.

Not necessarily. What Confucianism upholds, at least ideally, is moderation and a care of human elements. Granted, that does mean that the implementation of innovation will occasionally be limited, but considering the increasing impact and irreversibility of modern technology and what seems to lie ahead, is that really that bad a thing? It might be better to think of it not as, say, a total ban on genetic engineering and biotechnology in the name of love for nature, but more that safety precautions and care need to complement innovation and technology themselves in order for us not to become victim of what we have created.

Another relevant aspects is the Confucian focus on tradition, which is by definition a conservative stance. What that ultimately entails, though, is the sense of harmony and solidarity. While it can be considered a conformist thought, I do not think the only way to interpret it is to hold onto the ways of our ancestors despite impracticality. Perhaps a way to think of it is like modern festivals with religious roots. Confucius would probably argue that these festivals, like Christmas and Easter, should still be observed as it serve as a binding force for your family and maybe friends. However, that does not mean you have to go to church or celebrate them in a very pious manner - as long as it brings your family and/or friends together in a harmonious way, the details does not exactly matter.

as you make my case

Confucians decide from the top. that stifles innovation.

[Tuthina]

Not necessarily. What Confucianism upholds, at least ideally, is moderation and a care of human elements. Granted, that does mean that the implementation of innovation will occasionally be limited, but considering the increasing impact and irreversibility of modern technology and what seems to lie ahead, is that really that bad a thing? It might be better to think of it not as, say, a total ban on genetic engineering and biotechnology in the name of love for nature, but more that safety precautions and care need to complement innovation and technology themselves in order for us not to become victim of what we have created.

Another relevant aspects is the Confucian focus on tradition, which is by definition a conservative stance. What that ultimately entails, though, is the sense of harmony and solidarity. While it can be considered a conformist thought, I do not think the only way to interpret it is to hold onto the ways of our ancestors despite impracticality. Perhaps a way to think of it is like modern festivals with religious roots. Confucius would probably argue that these festivals, like Christmas and Easter, should still be observed as it serve as a binding force for your family and maybe friends. However, that does not mean you have to go to church or celebrate them in a very pious manner - as long as it brings your family and/or friends together in a harmonious way, the details does not exactly matter.

as you make my case

Confucians decide from the top. that stifles innovation.

Not necessarily, think of the relationships more as social contracts, which seem not to have stifled innovation in the West, but with human elements.

[Ashmoria]

as you make my case

Confucians decide from the top. that stifles innovation.

Not necessarily, think of the relationships more as social contracts, which seem not to have stifled innovation in the West, but with human elements.

it doesn't HAVE to be but it is the rare grandpa who sees the genius in grandson#3's idea for a great iPhone app.

[Liriena]

I've always been fascinated by Confucianism and other Chinese philosophies, if only because they are very significant yet seldom get any attention in Western academic circles.

Not sure I'd like to live in a Confucian society, though.

[Tuthina]

Not necessarily, think of the relationships more as social contracts, which seem not to have stifled innovation in the West, but with human elements.

it doesn't HAVE to be but it is the rare grandpa who sees the genius in grandson#3's idea for a great iPhone app.

Probably depends on what kind of grandpa you have, I suppose.

[Pope Joan]

Master K'ung reminds me of Solomon or those who wrote the Hebrew Proverbs in his name. The audience is young men who are being trained for positions of responsibility. In a way the writings resemble avuncular advice. "If you are eating at the King's table and he offers you seconds, praise the food but politely decline, you 'cannot eat another bite'." This is prudent! Be an exemplary citizen, take care of your family and community. Practice some self care (learn music or poetry) but do not seek for wealth.

If the intended audience were those who were entering the government bureaucracy, they had at least better not be too overt about seeking wealth.

[Lhagatse]

seems to me that Confucianism is great for stability but terrible for innovation. innovation is essential in the modern world.

Confucian cultures have managed to accomplish a tremendous deal of innovayion. Gunpowder, paper, compasses, and type set presses are pretty innovative if you ask me. But I digress, as one could make the argument that these innovations were made in spite of, and not innately because of or neutral to the influences, Confucian philosophy, which isn't an unfair assesment.

Though you are correct in the sense that uncertainty avoidance has been a major deciding factor of technological innovation, and that Chinese companies and organisations have been found to be marginally more predisposed to uncertainty avoidance, and are thus slightly less innovative. But the difference is marginal at best, and effectively makes little to no overall economic impact.

Confucian-influenced firms and employees are still innovative, despite claims otherwise, and have been shown to be empirically. And while their ability to innovate is somewhat diminished, it hardly supports your assertion that Confucianism is "great for stability but terrible for innovation." The study above does take place in the modern world, though, so you might make the argument that the Chinese firm is also a product of modern-capitalist ideals. But modern-day China is still heavily Confucian dominated, and it stands to reason that business/work-place culture should not deviate considerably from the most fundamental Confucian tenets (except, perhaps, the vilification of merchants).

[Arumdaum]

I'd wanted to post in this thread but I hope it's not too late... was on vacation when this went up.

In general, adopting a religion or a philosophy does not mean that such a society is going to be wholly defined by and act according to what constitutes the beliefs and values of such (which are generally not agreed upon). People are forgetting that contradictions always exist in how humans think and interact - just because society deems something positive does not mean that society is going to accept something and view as also positive which contradicts it (note many evangelical Republicans in the US; the same people who preach of the love and forgiveness of God and consider themselves "pro-life" are also often people who strongly support the military, capital punishment, and "kickin' some ass," often Muslim or Arab ass). Similarly, supporters of capitalism praise it for its individuality and freedom, despite the fact that most people live as wage slaves working for a business that they do not control the operations of.

Confucianism places a strong emphasis on precedent and the past, but this does not mean that societies heavily influenced by Confucianism uniquely look toward history for examples of how to govern. Having a common law system has not prevented the nations of the Anglosphere from being innovative. The constant worship of the Founding Fathers and how "they would have interpreted the Constitution" by Americans has not prevented the United States from being innovative. Western nations heavily influenced by Christianity have not been prevented from being innovative through churchgoers being told ancient stories from the Bible.

I don't see why Confucianism would prevent societies from being innovative - Confucian societies developed and provided incentives for the evolution of gunpowder weaponry from a creative variety of the earliest styles, such as attaching gunpowder to birds, to the first fully developed gun. The evolution of gunpowder weaponry in China is pretty interesting as it's here where you see the slow process of early gunpowder weapons actually eventually turning into guns, which you don't see anywhere else as other societies just adopted guns after they were invented.

Confucian societies also invented the printing press, the compass, paper, and much, much more. According to the Bloomberg Innovation Index, the ROK, arguably the world's most Confucian society, is by far the most innovative economy in the world, and has been so for a while. Japan, culturally Confucian and philosophically dominated by Neo-Confucianism during the Edo period, ranked as 4th most innovative economy in 2016, while Singapore has been ranking as 6th most innovative economy. In the 2009 International Innovation Index, produced together by the Boston Consulting Group and the National Association of Manufacturers, the ROK ranked as the most innovative large economy, while Japan ranked third. When small countries were included, Singapore ranked first.

The way Confucianism has been interpreted within East Asia has also changed, in the same the way that early Christian disdain for merchants did not prevent the eventual synthesis of material success and religiosity among Protestants in the United States (Protestant work ethic?..). Confucianism, like many belief systems originating in agrarian societies, did not value merchants, them being seen as greedy intermediaries who obtain wealth without actually producing anything of value. However, the introduction of capitalism has greatly changed Confucianism in East Asia. In Korea, it is now seen as filial to do well in school and obtain a high-ranking job, whether in law, medicine, business, or government. People dream of being able to work at giant conglomerates such as LG and Samsung. The truth is that any belief system changes to fit the times and local environment.

There are certainly hierarchies which exist in Confucian societies, but this does not mean that other societies do not have hierarchies as well. Hierarchies exist in pretty much all businesses with any employees, in schools, in governments, and so on. Any capitalist or feudal society would not be able to exist without hierarchy. Furthermore, the strong collective mentality and the rigid command structure of modern militaries has not prevented the military from being innovative. Technological innovations spurred on by the military have helped to advance many technologies, such as that for satellites and the Internet.

[Arumdaum]

As an ethnic Korean (Korean-American born & raised in US by pretty unconventional Korean family lol), I've definitely been influenced by Confucianism. I would certainly like to be a good son to my parents and I want to succeed in education. I try to be nice to the elderly. I try to give up my seats to the elderly on buses and trains, and I helped out some older folks at fill out forms at immigration when I visited Taiwan from Korea, then returned to the US from Korea.

There are many little things I do which I guess may be influenced by Confucianism. When I visited friends' houses when I was younger and their parents would just tell me to refer to them by their first name, I couldn't do it because of awkward and uncomfortable it felt. I still won't do it for teachers or professors who say that they don't mind just being called say "Eric" or whatever. Just feels really weird, haha.

When I speak to people in Korean, I speak to strangers and people who are older than me politely, while I speak to those who aren't adults yet casually. Then again, if you spoke to elders informally in Korea, you'd just be seen as really rude and people wouldn't like you, haha. I myself didn't like it when some shop vendor was speaking to my grandma informally. The guy really came off as a dick. I also bow when greeting Koreans who are older than me, apart from like cousins and my parents.

I don't particularly know too many specifics regarding Confucianism but I'm sure I thoroughly disagree with much of it. An ancient belief system originating in feudal China I don't think is perfectly applicable to the 21st century, haha. Like other belief systems originating in agrarian societies, Confucianism does not view women particularly fondly, which I do not like. The introduction of Confucianism and Sinic culture to Korea, Japan, and Southeast Asia led to a heavy downgrade of women's rights.

I think Confucianism also places too much emphasis on individual people being clean and virtuous, while I would prefer more of an emphasis on structures and laws which prevent things like say, corruption.

[Arumdaum]

seems to me that Confucianism is great for stability but terrible for innovation. innovation is essential in the modern world.

Confucian cultures have managed to accomplish a tremendous deal of innovayion. Gunpowder, paper, compasses, and type set presses are pretty innovative if you ask me. But I digress, as one could make the argument that these innovations were made in spite of, and not innately because of or neutral to the influences, Confucian philosophy, which isn't an unfair assesment.

Though you are correct in the sense that uncertainty avoidance has been a major deciding factor of technological innovation, and that Chinese companies and organisations have been found to be marginally more predisposed to uncertainty avoidance, and are thus slightly less innovative. But the difference is marginal at best, and effectively makes little to no overall economic impact.

Confucian-influenced firms and employees are still innovative, despite claims otherwise, and have been shown to be empirically. And while their ability to innovate is somewhat diminished, it hardly supports your assertion that Confucianism is "great for stability but terrible for innovation." The study above does take place in the modern world, though, so you might make the argument that the Chinese firm is also a product of modern-capitalist ideals. But modern-day China is still heavily Confucian dominated, and it stands to reason that business/work-place culture should not deviate considerably from the most fundamental Confucian tenets (except, perhaps, the vilification of merchants).

You can certainly correct me on this one, but I don't think uncertainty avoidance is too important.

http://www.clearlycultural.com/geert-ho ... nce-index/

China actually has lower uncertainty avoidance than most Western nations, including the United States. Japan actually has very high uncertainty avoidance, while Singapore has the lowest uncertainty avoidance of any country on the list, which brings into question just how much Confucianism is related to uncertainty avoidance...

Places influenced by Confucianism (1 - 120):
Japan: 92; Korea 85; Taiwan 69; Mainland China 40; Hong Kong 29; Singapore 8