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Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Do you approve of the new act?

Yes
67
30%
No
160
70%
 
Total votes : 227

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The High Lords
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Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act

Postby The High Lords » Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:35 am

Simply put, here is a "digest":
Religious freedom restoration act. Provides that a state or local government action may not substantially burden a person's right to the exercise of religion unless it is demonstrated that applying the burden to the person's exercise of religion is: (1) essential to further a compelling governmental interest; and (2) the least restrictive means of furthering the compelling governmental interest. Provides that a person whose exercise of religion has been substantially burdened, or is likely to be substantially burdened, by a state or local government action may assert the burden as a claim or defense in a judicial proceeding, regardless of whether the state or a political subdivision of the state is a party to the judicial proceeding. Allows a person who asserts a burden as a claim or defense to obtain appropriate relief, including: (1) injunctive relief; (2) declaratory relief; (3) compensatory damages; and (4) recovery of court costs and reasonable attorney's fees.

The whole thing can be seen here.

And a small excerpt from the Indy Star:
The nation's latest legislative battle over religious freedom and gay rights came to a close Thursday when Indiana Gov. Mike Pence signed a controversial "religious freedom" bill into law.

His action followed two days of intense pressure from opponents — including technology company executives and convention organizers — who fear the measure could allow discrimination, particularly against gays and lesbians.

Pence and leaders of the Republican-controlled General Assembly called those concerns a "misunderstanding."

"This bill is not about discrimination," Pence said, "and if I thought it legalized discrimination I would have vetoed it."

Senate Bill 101 prohibits state or local governments from substantially burdening a person's ability to exercise their religion — unless the government can show that it has a compelling interest and that the action is the least-restrictive means of achieving it. It takes effect July 1.

Although the bill does not mention sexual orientation, opponents fear it could allow business owners to deny services to gays and lesbians for religious reasons.


There's been a lot of commotion about it, which is nicely summed up in an NCAA statement:
"The NCAA national office and our members are deeply committed to providing an inclusive environment for all our events. We are especially concerned about how this legislation could affect our student-athletes and employees. We will work diligently to assure student-athletes competing in, and visitors attending, next week's Men's Final Four in Indianapolis are not impacted negatively by this bill. Moving forward, we intend to closely examine the implications of this bill and how it might affect future events as well as our workforce."


And some opinions from 2016 frontrunner Hillary Clinton, and Apple's CEO Tim Cook. Tons of other people are making an uproar about it across the interweb - something to not be ignored. So, it's curious that it isn't in NS forums yet...

Here's your source from NPR,
and this is from CNN,
Need your MSNBC?
And the glorious NYT.

There is an interesting counter-argument out there, though, only from FOX.

What say you, NSG?
Last edited by The High Lords on Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sarigen
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Postby Sarigen » Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:58 am

I can't support this act. It's ridiculous, we now have a state where gay people can be turned away from businesses. Has the US learned nothing from when they did this to black people? It's completely disgusting.

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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:58 am

Well, this raises a number of interesting legal questions, for sure. Is state inaction the same as state action, for example? Can a state be sued on the basis of inaction because of this law? If this is so, can a religious group force the state to build religious buildings to accommodate them? This will give rise to a number of very interesting cases not unlike those seen in the first half of the twentieth century in Europe.

I do not fear, however, for the safety of the gay community. As said, the law gives the state the right to curtail the freedom of religion if that is required for the functioning of the state. Ending discrimination could be seen as one of the primary workings of a state, thus allowing them to pass certain laws. The sentence regarding "laws and policy of general applicability" however, raises my concern. That would give religious institutions rights above any other secular organisation, something that goes against religious freedom.
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Murkwood
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Postby Murkwood » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:01 am

God Bless Mike Pence.
Degenerate Heart of HetRio wrote:Murkwood, I'm surprised you're not an anti-Semite and don't mind most LGBT rights because boy, aren't you a constellation of the worst opinions to have about everything? o_o

Benuty wrote:I suppose Ken Ham, and the league of Republican-Neocolonialist-Zionist Catholics will not be pleased.

Soldati senza confini wrote:Did I just try to rationalize Murkwood's logic? Please shoot me.

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Postby Fartsniffage » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:29 am


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United Russian Soviet States
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Postby United Russian Soviet States » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:31 am

I approve of the act. It is not about discrimination.
This nation does not represent my views.
I stand with Rand.
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Saint Kitten
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Postby Saint Kitten » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:33 am

Kinda reminds me of Jim Crow
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United Russian Soviet States
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Postby United Russian Soviet States » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:39 am

Saint Kitten wrote:Kinda reminds me of Jim Crow

It is not like Jim Crow.
This nation does not represent my views.
I stand with Rand.
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Saint Kitten
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Postby Saint Kitten » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:43 am

United Russian Soviet States wrote:
Saint Kitten wrote:Kinda reminds me of Jim Crow

It is not like Jim Crow.

Rejecting people from service based solely on their sexual orientation is in no way like rejecting someone based off the color of their skin, using religion as a shield to protect their bigoted beliefs?
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Postby United Russian Soviet States » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:44 am

Saint Kitten wrote:
United Russian Soviet States wrote:It is not like Jim Crow.

Rejecting people from service based solely on their sexual orientation is in no way like rejecting someone based off the color of their skin, using religion as a shield to protect their bigoted beliefs?

The act does not condone discrimination.
This nation does not represent my views.
I stand with Rand.
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Greed and Death
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Postby Greed and Death » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:44 am

It is extremely unlikely that the RFRA allows discrimination against LGBT people. Th Indiana RFRA follows the federal RFRA almost verbatim and introduces the same legal standard. The supreme court addressed discrimination laws and that legal standard in Bob Jones University v. United States, 461 U.S. 574 (1983). Yes in theory the Indiana supreme court could interpret its RFRA differently but as the legislative history and the governor's signing statement made clear the law is not designed to allow discrimination, so the Indiana supreme court will find the US Supreme court's rule in Bob Jones University very persuasive.
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Mavorpen
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Postby Mavorpen » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:48 am

I don't see this actually permitting discrimination based on already existing precedents.

It is an unnecessary and stupid law though.
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Postby Ashmoria » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:54 am

greed and death wrote:It is extremely unlikely that the RFRA allows discrimination against LGBT people. Th Indiana RFRA follows the federal RFRA almost verbatim and introduces the same legal standard. The supreme court addressed discrimination laws and that legal standard in Bob Jones University v. United States, 461 U.S. 574 (1983). Yes in theory the Indiana supreme court could interpret its RFRA differently but as the legislative history and the governor's signing statement made clear the law is not designed to allow discrimination, so the Indiana supreme court will find the US Supreme court's rule in Bob Jones University very persuasive.

then why bother passing their own?
whatever

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Greed and Death
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Postby Greed and Death » Sat Mar 28, 2015 10:59 am

Ashmoria wrote:
greed and death wrote:It is extremely unlikely that the RFRA allows discrimination against LGBT people. Th Indiana RFRA follows the federal RFRA almost verbatim and introduces the same legal standard. The supreme court addressed discrimination laws and that legal standard in Bob Jones University v. United States, 461 U.S. 574 (1983). Yes in theory the Indiana supreme court could interpret its RFRA differently but as the legislative history and the governor's signing statement made clear the law is not designed to allow discrimination, so the Indiana supreme court will find the US Supreme court's rule in Bob Jones University very persuasive.

then why bother passing their own?

The Federal RFRA does not apply to the states, so if states want a general rule on religious exemptions and they do not already have the same rule from the state constitution then states will have to pass their own RFRA.
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Postby Atlanticatia » Sat Mar 28, 2015 11:06 am

Disgusting...an attack on the civil rights of LGBT people. Everyone should have the right to participate in society and feel included in their community. Remember that racial segregation was justified by religion - and people claimed 'religious liberty' when they defended it.

I hope other progressive cities/states follow San Francisco's lead and boycott Indiana by banning taxpayer-funded travel there.

I am also pleased to see that some businesses and organisations are expressing discontent and may be considering relocating or divesting.
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Postby Herskerstad » Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:22 pm

Atlanticatia wrote:I hope other progressive cities/states follow San Francisco's lead and boycott Indiana by banning taxpayer-funded travel there.


Well, that's at least one definite good thing in regards to this whole situation.

For Indiana that is. :p
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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Sat Mar 28, 2015 12:25 pm

Atlanticatia wrote:Disgusting...an attack on the civil rights of LGBT people. Everyone should have the right to participate in society and feel included in their community. Remember that racial segregation was justified by religion - and people claimed 'religious liberty' when they defended it.

I hope other progressive cities/states follow San Francisco's lead and boycott Indiana by banning taxpayer-funded travel there.

I am also pleased to see that some businesses and organisations are expressing discontent and may be considering relocating or divesting.

Listen, this law does not make second class citizens out of gays. It just mentions that the state of Indiana cannot make specials laws putting back religious institutions unfairly. Nowhere does it say that it allows religious people to deny gays from getting married, or that gays will be denied from certain jobs. That's discrimination, that's illegal and this law does not allow that. It is a large stretch to say that this bill suddenly allows discrimination.
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Postby The Rich Port » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:31 pm

You know...

There's a thing in our constitution...

About laws like this.
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Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:34 pm

The Rich Port wrote:You know...

There's a thing in our constitution...

About laws like this.

Where, exactly? Are we talking about that religious amendment? What was it... The first one, I believe. here's the text:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Now, look at the law. See what it does. It's actually a very basic law, it only has one real article, which is actually quite a good one. Actually read the legal document, it will tell you everything you need to know.
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Postby Atlanticatia » Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:56 pm

Great Confederacy Of Commonwealth States wrote:
Atlanticatia wrote:Disgusting...an attack on the civil rights of LGBT people. Everyone should have the right to participate in society and feel included in their community. Remember that racial segregation was justified by religion - and people claimed 'religious liberty' when they defended it.

I hope other progressive cities/states follow San Francisco's lead and boycott Indiana by banning taxpayer-funded travel there.

I am also pleased to see that some businesses and organisations are expressing discontent and may be considering relocating or divesting.

Listen, this law does not make second class citizens out of gays. It just mentions that the state of Indiana cannot make specials laws putting back religious institutions unfairly. Nowhere does it say that it allows religious people to deny gays from getting married, or that gays will be denied from certain jobs. That's discrimination, that's illegal and this law does not allow that. It is a large stretch to say that this bill suddenly allows discrimination.


It means that people can use their so-called 'religious liberty' as justification for not serving LGBT people because it is against their religion, for example. That is not okay. I don't care about your religious views, they can not and should not be used to exclude someone from a public establishment.
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Idzequitch
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Postby Idzequitch » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:01 pm

Religious freedom =/= right to discriminate.
I support religious freedom, but this bill does not address religious freedom in any way.
If Indiana was the General Assembly, this would be a category violation.
Last edited by Idzequitch on Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Rich Port » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:01 pm

Great Confederacy Of Commonwealth States wrote:
The Rich Port wrote:You know...

There's a thing in our constitution...

About laws like this.

Where, exactly? Are we talking about that religious amendment? What was it... The first one, I believe. here's the text:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Now, look at the law. See what it does. It's actually a very basic law, it only has one real article, which is actually quite a good one. Actually read the legal document, it will tell you everything you need to know.


I read the law.

Just because the state government infringes on the rights of citizens as opposed to the federal government doesn't make it right.

You're only thinking of the religious liberty of the Christians to be prejudiced towards the homosexual population. What about the religious liberty of the homosexual population? What if they disagree with the Christian interpretation that they are dead in the eyes of God?
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Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States
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Postby Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:03 pm

Atlanticatia wrote:
Great Confederacy Of Commonwealth States wrote:Listen, this law does not make second class citizens out of gays. It just mentions that the state of Indiana cannot make specials laws putting back religious institutions unfairly. Nowhere does it say that it allows religious people to deny gays from getting married, or that gays will be denied from certain jobs. That's discrimination, that's illegal and this law does not allow that. It is a large stretch to say that this bill suddenly allows discrimination.


It means that people can use their so-called 'religious liberty' as justification for not serving LGBT people because it is against their religion, for example. That is not okay. I don't care about your religious views, they can not and should not be used to exclude someone from a public establishment.

It does not say that anywhere in the bill. Here, I shall try and find the actual legal document... Ah, here it is.

Sec. 6. A state action, or an action taken by an individual based on state action, may not substantially burden a person's right to the exercise of religion, even if the burden results from a law or policy of general applicability, unless the state or political subdivision of the state demonstrates that applying the burden to the person's exercise of religion is:
(1) essential to further a compelling governmental interest;
and
(2) the least restrictive means of furthering the compelling governmental interest.

Sec. 7. (a) A person whose exercise of religion:
(1) has been substantially burdened; or
(2) is likely to be substantially burdened;
by a violation of section 6 of this chapter may assert the violation, or impending violation, as a claim or defense in a judicial proceeding, regardless of whether the state or a political subdivision of the state is a party to the judicial proceeding.
(b) A person who asserts a claim or defense under subsection (a) may obtain appropriate relief from a violation, or an impending violation, of section 6 of this chapter, including relief against the state or a political subdivision of the state.

As you can see in Section 6, the state is prohibited from imposing any burden on the exercise of religious freedom. Only if the state interest is directly attacked (public order, duty to the constitution, and so forth) a law can be passed to curtail religious freedom. Discrimination is illegal. Therefore, no-one can deny anyone a job based on this law. Religious freedom does not give someone the right to discriminate. If you can tell me how this law makes discrimination possible, please do
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:04 pm

Christians have such weak faith. It's funny sometimes; most of the time sad.

Bad people for whatever reason need these kind of laws.

Oh well. I canceled Gencon and wrote them the reason why. A couple buds did the same.

Salesforce.com has now made an edict that no employees will travel or do business there due to the possibility of discrimination.
Last edited by The Black Forrest on Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Sheltopolis » Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:06 pm

Atlanticatia wrote:
Great Confederacy Of Commonwealth States wrote:Listen, this law does not make second class citizens out of gays. It just mentions that the state of Indiana cannot make specials laws putting back religious institutions unfairly. Nowhere does it say that it allows religious people to deny gays from getting married, or that gays will be denied from certain jobs. That's discrimination, that's illegal and this law does not allow that. It is a large stretch to say that this bill suddenly allows discrimination.


It means that people can use their so-called 'religious liberty' as justification for not serving LGBT people because it is against their religion, for example. That is not okay. I don't care about your religious views, they can not and should not be used to exclude someone from a public establishment.


But businesses are not public establishments, they are private. Private business owners should be able to do whatever they please.
Last edited by Sheltopolis on Sat Mar 28, 2015 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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