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by Mallorea and Riva » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:17 pm
by KaelThas Quilor » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:20 pm
The Bruce wrote:I sometimes suspect that Cerian Quilor is here to harvest the tears of young, ambitious nations.
Cormac Stark wrote:my opinion of me, as usual, is the only one that matters. :p
by Blackbird » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:23 pm
KaelThas Quilor wrote:Raiders even at their worst cannot destroy a 'community'. Only a community can destroy a community, in NS. All they can do, at their worst, is destroy a region.
by Unibot III » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:29 pm
Blackbird wrote:Cormac Stark wrote:I'm fairly sure Sector ZYX did face consequences, but his act of forum destruction was six years ago and I believe the consequences occurred then. I'm not entirely sure.
Regardless, this resolution was proposed primarily because I saw the way invaders were treating the forum destroyers in their midst -- literally as if nothing even happened -- and I thought it unjust for ASE to continue to be stigmatized. The reaction to this proposal has confirmed for me that gameplay is every bit the toxic, poisonous, hypocritical environment I know it to be, and that most gameplayers don't actually care about forum destruction unless they can score political points. I'll remember that next time the same people still invading with Syl and Shadoke call for the heads of a forum destroyer they don't like, and I will no longer support any worse consequences for a forum destroyer than for a region destroyer.
You are quite correct, Cormac.
Back in the days in which these events took place, invaders were than happy to invade founderless regions, expel and grief all the natives, and refound it to prevent the community from existing again. Defenders united to fight against these invader scum.
When members of the Red Liberty Alliance, none of whom were members of the Allied States of Euroislanders, committed forum destruction, the Executive Committee of the Red Liberty Alliance, of which Eurosoviets was the head, and the Supreme Soviet of the Red Liberty Alliance, the highest legislative body of the Red Liberty Alliance, roundly and emphatically condemned the forum destruction, punished the offenders, and expelled them.
The only reason the Allied States of Euroislanders was targeted is that some people don't like its founder, and it's very easy to play with the politics of forum destruction. Invaders had no qualms about destroying communities back then, and though I do not pretend to be a follower of current events, as I understand it their regions and alliances continue to harbor those who have committed these acts.
It is simply rank hypocrisy, rank not because of its transparent self-serving nature, but rank because it is old and stale: it is part and parcel of the trends of invaders to try to make themselves "respectable" by playing a game of politics that could never win.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
by KaelThas Quilor » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:37 pm
Blackbird wrote:KaelThas Quilor wrote:Raiders even at their worst cannot destroy a 'community'. Only a community can destroy a community, in NS. All they can do, at their worst, is destroy a region.
Clearly, you weren't around when I was. Twelve and odd years ago, back when griefing rules were less developed and enforced, invaders routinely invaded and occupied regions, expelling the natives. Even once founders came about, invaders would routinley target founderless regions, many of whom did not have offsite forums, expel the natives, and refound it. Those natives had to remember who was in the region in order to reconnect and start again. This destroyed many communities, and I have no qualms describing it thusly.
Of course, this again is a side-track from my point about the politics at play here.
The Bruce wrote:I sometimes suspect that Cerian Quilor is here to harvest the tears of young, ambitious nations.
Cormac Stark wrote:my opinion of me, as usual, is the only one that matters. :p
by Solorni » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:38 pm
by Blackbird » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:39 pm
KaelThas Quilor wrote:Blackbird wrote:
Clearly, you weren't around when I was. Twelve and odd years ago, back when griefing rules were less developed and enforced, invaders routinely invaded and occupied regions, expelling the natives. Even once founders came about, invaders would routinley target founderless regions, many of whom did not have offsite forums, expel the natives, and refound it. Those natives had to remember who was in the region in order to reconnect and start again. This destroyed many communities, and I have no qualms describing it thusly.
Of course, this again is a side-track from my point about the politics at play here.
A community that is made up of strong connections and real relationships will survive a region's destruction, offsite forums or no offsite forums.
by Blackbird » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:40 pm
Solorni wrote:I am simply amazed that a well known defender supporter of forum destruction would oppose this measure. While Blackbird might not give a crap about forum destruction except when his region of TPC was forced to apologize for its crimes and say that we weren't around back then. Many other players from the time period Blackbird states despise forum destruction and don't share in his whitewashing of history.
by Shizensky » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:57 pm
KaelThas Quilor wrote:A community that is made up of strong connections and real relationships will survive a region's destruction, offsite forums or no offsite forums.
by Consular » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:01 pm
Shizensky wrote:KaelThas Quilor wrote:A community that is made up of strong connections and real relationships will survive a region's destruction, offsite forums or no offsite forums.
This has always been a weak argument. Do you remember what it took to build the community you're a part of, or what it took for you to feel like you're a part of it? If you really think about it, you probably don't. Real communities don't have a formula that leads to their creation, they just happen. Relationships grow organically, people aren't just the best of friends after a few minutes. Tight friendships will last a region or forum destruction, yes, but a community is more than just a few friends among the larger population. More relationships are forming and strengthening, and acts of destruction interfere with that growth.
Some of the friends might keep in contact, but the overall community is destroyed.
by Solorni » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:18 pm
Shizensky wrote:KaelThas Quilor wrote:A community that is made up of strong connections and real relationships will survive a region's destruction, offsite forums or no offsite forums.
This has always been a weak argument. Do you remember what it took to build the community you're a part of, or what it took for you to feel like you're a part of it? If you really think about it, you probably don't. Real communities don't have a formula that leads to their creation, they just happen. Relationships grow organically, people aren't just the best of friends after a few minutes. Tight friendships will last a region or forum destruction, yes, but a community is more than just a few friends among the larger population. More relationships are forming and strengthening, and acts of destruction interfere with that growth.
Some of the friends might keep in contact, but the overall community is destroyed.
by KaelThas Quilor » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:20 pm
Shizensky wrote:KaelThas Quilor wrote:A community that is made up of strong connections and real relationships will survive a region's destruction, offsite forums or no offsite forums.
This has always been a weak argument. Do you remember what it took to build the community you're a part of, or what it took for you to feel like you're a part of it? If you really think about it, you probably don't. Real communities don't have a formula that leads to their creation, they just happen. Relationships grow organically, people aren't just the best of friends after a few minutes. Tight friendships will last a region or forum destruction, yes, but a community is more than just a few friends among the larger population. More relationships are forming and strengthening, and acts of destruction interfere with that growth.
Some of the friends might keep in contact, but the overall community is destroyed.
The Bruce wrote:I sometimes suspect that Cerian Quilor is here to harvest the tears of young, ambitious nations.
Cormac Stark wrote:my opinion of me, as usual, is the only one that matters. :p
by Evil Wolf » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:23 pm
Blackbird wrote:I was opposed to forum destruction when it first happened to DEN, and I remain opposed to it.
Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
Crazy Girl wrote:Invading was never illegal
[violet] wrote:There is supposed to be an invasion game.
by Blackbird » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:27 pm
Evil Wolf wrote:Blackbird wrote:I was opposed to forum destruction when it first happened to DEN, and I remain opposed to it.
Shenanigans. You praised Grips, AKA TRF, as being one of your best spies and an amazing agent. You even did so in a public interview. Go ahead and dispute it so I can find the interview you yourself gave, Blackbird, and prove you a total liar not only then, but now as well.
by Evil Wolf » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:33 pm
Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
Crazy Girl wrote:Invading was never illegal
[violet] wrote:There is supposed to be an invasion game.
by Blackbird » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:42 pm
Evil Wolf wrote:Oh, so I guess you only opposed TRF when he destroyed the Invaders forum, ignoring the fact that you edited the original announcement claiming credit for the Forum Destruction.
If you opposed the Forum Destruction so much, BB, why did you allow your name to be publicly attached to the article? I would like to think that if you really opposed the Forum Destruction you would have avoided having your name plastered all over the article that proudly announced the deed.
by Onderkelkia » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:27 pm
I have no opinion. Om is not an RLA member and thus he can't be tried for this crime (we do view it as a crime) within the RLA. That said, I've witnessed the destruction by defenders of plenty of invader forums. It's a scorched earth tactic that is pretty effective in driving them out of the game. Anything that beats invaders is fine by me.
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