No, what they're saying is that if you remove WRM you'd end up killing them, but if you keep them attached they'd live.
Would you pry them off and kill them off?
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by Soldati Senza Confini » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:33 pm
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.
by MERIZoC » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:33 pm
Arcturus Novus wrote:I would share my opinions, but being an individual who is incapable of carrying and birthing a child, I don't think my opinion is really valid. It is a pregnant person's choice whether or not they wish to develop a fetus inside of their body for nine months; let them decide.
by Russels Orbiting Teapot » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:33 pm
Luminesa wrote:
So if I can't talk, I have little-to-no experience at...something, and I have trouble expressing myself, does that make me not a person?
by Soldati Senza Confini » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:36 pm
Merizoc wrote:Arcturus Novus wrote:I would share my opinions, but being an individual who is incapable of carrying and birthing a child, I don't think my opinion is really valid. It is a pregnant person's choice whether or not they wish to develop a fetus inside of their body for nine months; let them decide.
Bollox. Anyone's opinion is relevant. Your gender doesn't matter. I really dislike the "Males have no right to decide on something that they never go through" line of thought, because it implies that other females have the right to decide that, which, in my opinion, they do not.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.
by Arcturus Novus » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:38 pm
Merizoc wrote:Arcturus Novus wrote:I would share my opinions, but being an individual who is incapable of carrying and birthing a child, I don't think my opinion is really valid. It is a pregnant person's choice whether or not they wish to develop a fetus inside of their body for nine months; let them decide.
Bollox. Anyone's opinion is relevant. Your gender doesn't matter. I really dislike the "Males have no right to decide on something that they never go through" line of thought, because it implies that other females have the right to decide that, which, in my opinion, they do not.
Nilokeras wrote:there is of course an interesting thread to pull on [...]
Unfortunately we're all forced to participate in whatever baroque humiliation kink the OP has going on instead.
by MERIZoC » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:39 pm
Soldati senza confini wrote:Merizoc wrote:Bollox. Anyone's opinion is relevant. Your gender doesn't matter. I really dislike the "Males have no right to decide on something that they never go through" line of thought, because it implies that other females have the right to decide that, which, in my opinion, they do not.
As we can witness at times in the news, some women can truly pack a punch when it comes to punishing other women.
But no, the choice should be the woman's only. No other woman and no man have any rights to decide on something that doesn't affect them.
It's the same as my case with circumcision, you can't tell me how to live as a guy with a penis and I can definitely ignore your opinion as to why should I circumcise.
by Luminesa » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:40 pm
Mavorpen wrote:Luminesa wrote:If we were comparing this to abortion, then abortion in this case would be like taking out a pistol and shooting you in the head for attaching yourself to me. Which would be inhumane and unreasonable, when, again, I can just pry you off and go along my merry way. Meanwhile, you are still living and capable of going on with your life.
No it wouldn't. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. If you could, for example, remove a fetus from the mother before viability and place it into an incubator of some kind without it dying, that would still be an abortion. The analogy to an abortion applies if you just pry them off of you.
by Mavorpen » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:41 pm
Luminesa wrote:Well, what is the pregnancy? And as far as I knew, abortion involved someone's death.
by Soldati Senza Confini » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:41 pm
Arcturus Novus wrote:Merizoc wrote:Bollox. Anyone's opinion is relevant. Your gender doesn't matter. I really dislike the "Males have no right to decide on something that they never go through" line of thought, because it implies that other females have the right to decide that, which, in my opinion, they do not.
Valid point. But still, I don't really think anybody but child-bearing individuals should get to make decisions about this kind of thing. Let's assume for a moment that I am a legislator. I don't think it would be right for me, being an individual who can't get pregnant, to make laws specifically about people who can get pregnant. I just think that isn't right.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.
by East Catalina » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:43 pm
Luminesa wrote:Mavorpen wrote:No it wouldn't. Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. If you could, for example, remove a fetus from the mother before viability and place it into an incubator of some kind without it dying, that would still be an abortion. The analogy to an abortion applies if you just pry them off of you.
Hi, Mav! See you changed your flag.
Well, what is the pregnancy? And as far as I knew, abortion involved someone's death.
All in all, it's kind of a weird analogy. So, in this analogy, has the person in question lost all capacity for independent thought and function? I'm really kinda confused...
by Luminesa » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:43 pm
Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:Luminesa wrote:
So if I can't talk, I have little-to-no experience at...something, and I have trouble expressing myself, does that make me not a person?
The capability to experience things is what I'm talking about.
And we're discussing the presence or absence of a thing, not scale. A person experiences, a rock does not.
by Soldati Senza Confini » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:44 pm
Merizoc wrote:Soldati senza confini wrote:
As we can witness at times in the news, some women can truly pack a punch when it comes to punishing other women.
But no, the choice should be the woman's only. No other woman and no man have any rights to decide on something that doesn't affect them.
It's the same as my case with circumcision, you can't tell me how to live as a guy with a penis and I can definitely ignore your opinion as to why should I circumcise.
Well, yes, obviously it's up to the individual. But I think that the notion that "Female X's opinion on whether or not Female A should get an abortion is more important than Male Y" is absolutely ridiculous.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.
by Soldati Senza Confini » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:45 pm
Luminesa wrote:Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:The capability to experience things is what I'm talking about.
And we're discussing the presence or absence of a thing, not scale. A person experiences, a rock does not.
A fetus can experience things. It has a heartbeat pretty early, it can dream, it can suck its thumb, it can swim around in the womb, it can hear its mother's voice (to some degree), it can eat, and it can experience contentment or fear. Of course, I'm putting all these things down in random order, rather than in the order in which the fetus develops all these abilities, but you get the picture. A fetus can experience things. Thus, it is not a rock, which...as we both know...just sits there.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.
by Luminesa » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:46 pm
by Arcturus Novus » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:46 pm
Soldati senza confini wrote:Arcturus Novus wrote:Valid point. But still, I don't really think anybody but child-bearing individuals should get to make decisions about this kind of thing. Let's assume for a moment that I am a legislator. I don't think it would be right for me, being an individual who can't get pregnant, to make laws specifically about people who can get pregnant. I just think that isn't right.
See, the problem with your line of thought is that you are comparing "it is the woman's choice and she can ignore your opinion" to "only women can make policy affecting other women".
One is true, the other isn't. Legislators and policy makers are not strictly separated by gender. Usually though, a man or a woman can have an idea that benefits the opposite sex by virtue of being educated about the issue at hand and talking to the opposite sex rather than just assuming what the opposite sex thinks.
Nilokeras wrote:there is of course an interesting thread to pull on [...]
Unfortunately we're all forced to participate in whatever baroque humiliation kink the OP has going on instead.
by East Catalina » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:47 pm
Luminesa wrote:Mavorpen wrote:No, not really. It's just that we have no way of having fetuses live when they're removed before viability. "Killing" isn't a necessary part of abortion.
So are you talking about, like, when a woman has a miscarriage?
As far as the procedure itself goes, abortion usually involves the ending of a pregnancy by killing a human baby. But if you're talking about a miscarriage, that's different, because the baby is already dead.
by Soldati Senza Confini » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:48 pm
Luminesa wrote:Mavorpen wrote:No, not really. It's just that we have no way of having fetuses live when they're removed before viability. "Killing" isn't a necessary part of abortion.
So are you talking about, like, when a woman has a miscarriage?
As far as the procedure itself goes, abortion usually involves the ending of a pregnancy by killing a human baby. But if you're talking about a miscarriage, that's different, because the baby is already dead.
Tekania wrote:Welcome to NSG, where informed opinions get to bump-heads with ignorant ideology under the pretense of an equal footing.
by Neutraligon » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:48 pm
Luminesa wrote:Russels Orbiting Teapot wrote:The capability to experience things is what I'm talking about.
And we're discussing the presence or absence of a thing, not scale. A person experiences, a rock does not.
A fetus can experience things. It has a heartbeat pretty early, it can dream, it can suck its thumb, it can swim around in the womb, it can hear its mother's voice (to some degree), it can eat, and it can experience contentment or fear. Of course, I'm putting all these things down in random order, rather than in the order in which the fetus develops all these abilities, but you get the picture. A fetus can experience things. Thus, it is not a rock, which...as we both know...just sits there.
by The Confederacy of Nationalism » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:49 pm
Harrisvile wrote:I'm pro-choice. It's the woman's body, she is a autonomous human being, she can do whatever the hell she want's to do with her body.
"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - Voltaire / "If you want to shine like the sun, first you have to burn like it!" - Adolf Hitler
Resident Social Darwinist
by East Catalina » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:49 pm
Vatragii wrote:Killing a human being...eh, no. But we do that anyway.
Killing something that will be a human being...eh, no. But we still do that anyway.
What is it with people and killing?
by Mavorpen » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:50 pm
Luminesa wrote:Mavorpen wrote:No, not really. It's just that we have no way of having fetuses live when they're removed before viability. "Killing" isn't a necessary part of abortion.
So are you talking about, like, when a woman has a miscarriage?
As far as the procedure itself goes, abortion usually involves the ending of a pregnancy by killing a human baby. But if you're talking about a miscarriage, that's different, because the baby is already dead.
by Neutraligon » Wed Jan 28, 2015 6:50 pm
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