Concern about actions undertaken by Moderator

[Vetok]

I will ask again; is he allowed to lie and present no evidence to back up his proposal? If so, we are released from the burden of proving him wrong in return and we can declare him wrong.

I thought we already answered this. It's a political game... When are you ever NOT allowed to lie in politics?

Seriously, deceit, stretching truths, fibbing, that's all part of it. Now, we are NOT ruling on Mall's statements. We don't care, for the SC, we have NEVER cared, as long as the debate doesn't go into endless repetitions of Nu-uh! Uh-huh! back and forth, you guys can spin your statements for all its worth.

It is endless repetitions of 'Nu-uh! Uh-huh!'. We ask he provide evidence, he refuses. Hot-tempered members of the RP community are already showing the signs of tension from it, and it sounds like he is, again I must iterate, attempting to troll or bait those members into flaming him.

[New Azura]

I must respectfully disagree; the mechanics of the game are such that regions have passwords, as much to protect them from raiding as it is to 'opt out' of that aspect of gameplay, since defending and raiding by definition is an auxiliary form of gameplay not originally conceptualized in the development of the forums, per numerous admonitions in the past. Hence, by arguing from an in-character / gameplay context to fundamentally change the mechanics of the game, for the stated purpose of retribution on a region for activities that aren't even clearly specified or proven, he's demonstrating undue bias in a fashion that changes the game's paradigm. If this draft goes through, it fundamentally defeats the very mechanism of passwords, because there would no longer be any distinction between occupied regions and 'we want to discuss our favorite TV Show!' regions. I would consider that a fundamental abuse of authority, considering said moderator, for personal reasons, is trying to alter the physical game mechanics to achieve an in-game purpose.

Liberations, the removal of passwords, has been around for years no. This. Is. Not. New. This is something [violet] herself has addressed. It is not changing game mechanics at all. It's using the current tools.

That is a distressing viewpoint, considering the months of lolspats and revenge trolling that will result from the demise of the safety of passwords. Even so, I'm a fly in the ointment on the sticky glue the special needs person left on your sandbox; if you consider it closed, then I'll leave it be. Just... be prepared for the butthurt to come from all sides.

[NERVUN]

Liberations, the removal of passwords, has been around for years no. This. Is. Not. New. This is something [violet] herself has addressed. It is not changing game mechanics at all. It's using the current tools.

That is a distressing viewpoint, considering the months of lolspats and revenge trolling that will result from the demise of the safety of passwords. Even so, I'm a fly in the ointment on the sticky glue the special needs person left on your sandbox; if you consider it closed, then I'll leave it be. Just... be prepared for the butthurt to come from all sides.

You are quite a bit late to this argument. This was hashed out, and rehashed, and triple hashed, and beaten to death, buried, resurrected, re-killed, reanimated, staked, and a dance hall built above it just for those who wanted a memorial jigg.

Passwords in and of themselves are not safe. Founders however have more protections.

[NERVUN]

I thought we already answered this. It's a political game... When are you ever NOT allowed to lie in politics?

Seriously, deceit, stretching truths, fibbing, that's all part of it. Now, we are NOT ruling on Mall's statements. We don't care, for the SC, we have NEVER cared, as long as the debate doesn't go into endless repetitions of Nu-uh! Uh-huh! back and forth, you guys can spin your statements for all its worth.

It is endless repetitions of 'Nu-uh! Uh-huh!'. We ask he provide evidence, he refuses. Hot-tempered members of the RP community are already showing the signs of tension from it, and it sounds like he is, again I must iterate, attempting to troll or bait those members into flaming him.

In looking at the thread, I can see those who are actually debating have been on him about it. That's pretty well in line. The indent is not trolling as currently defined.

[Kubrastahni]

He may be posting in a political part of the forums, but all of the responses he will ever get out of that proposal will be OOC even for that forum, because he was deliberately attempting to get an OOC response, that response being, of course, anger, outrage, and all the other things that trolls get their jollies from.

By hiding under the guise of 'player' he has now become toxic to a large part of the community, who will forever regard him as biased and untrustworthy, whether he is 'playing' or putting on his mod-hat. That draft and the entire thread, and those behind it, will result in nothing but flame wars and the fostering of hatred.

A moderator should be helping the community, not getting a significant percentage of it to think that the moderators are out to get them.

Just a point to consider.

[New Azura]

That is a distressing viewpoint, considering the months of lolspats and revenge trolling that will result from the demise of the safety of passwords. Even so, I'm a fly in the ointment on the sticky glue the special needs person left on your sandbox; if you consider it closed, then I'll leave it be. Just... be prepared for the butthurt to come from all sides.

You are quite a bit late to this argument. This was hashed out, and rehashed, and triple hashed, and beaten to death, buried, resurrected, re-killed, reanimated, staked, and a dance hall built above it just for those who wanted a memorial jigg.

Passwords in and of themselves are not safe. Founders however have more protections.

I'm old, cut me some slack. You should be glad I can stay awake through Murder, She Wrote on the cable box.

Even so, que sera, sera.

[NERVUN]

Liberations, the removal of passwords, has been around for years no. This. Is. Not. New. This is something [violet] herself has addressed. It is not changing game mechanics at all. It's using the current tools.

So let me get this straight, you are saying that a region can be forced to participate in a part of the game they don't want to, and to sum it up, your answer is tough shit? How is that different than a player posting a thread where they wipe out the other country, without the player's participation and the official moderation answer is tough shit. No offense, but that's a bit fucked if you ask me.

Ok, I'm going to stop this one right here. If you guys want to debate the notion of R/D gameplay and if it can or cannot be forced onto others, please create a new discussion thread for it. That's a different topic.

[Vetok]

It is endless repetitions of 'Nu-uh! Uh-huh!'. We ask he provide evidence, he refuses. Hot-tempered members of the RP community are already showing the signs of tension from it, and it sounds like he is, again I must iterate, attempting to troll or bait those members into flaming him.

In looking at the thread, I can see those who are actually debating have been on him about it. That's pretty well in line. The indent is not trolling as currently defined.

By that logic, any General thread where someone claims something and provides no evidence on the grounds "You wouldn't accept it" is not trolling as long as people are asking for said evidence. I believe this would be in contrast to Moderation practise on most accepted trolls.

[The Batorys]

Given that Mall is a mod, and not new to the game, he's known what's happened the last times the R/D vs. RP aspects of the game have been pitted against each other.

Considering that, it seems pretty obvious to me that the entire thread was meant, in part, to antagonize a large segment of NS. We have a word for that. That word is trolling. And previously NS, it has been considered trolling even if you've believed in what you're posting, if you also knew it would antagonize people.

Now, I know my own record isn't spotless. I was warned just today.

But I'm not a moderator.

We should be able to expect better from moderators than trolling.

Given that mostly I'm in favor of moderation (I have disagreed with various decisions, and policies, but I acknowledge that overall it's actually pretty decent, and a lot better than many other sites), I'm very disappointed.

[NERVUN]

Hang on, moving things.

Done.

[Feazanthia]

Mostly, my concern is that this is being seen as a direct assault, by the Moderation staff, on the Roleplaying community. Look guys, as I've found with my green jacket, you can't just be "a player" with a special title and color on your name. It just doesn't happen. You're always representing the Mod (or, in my case, Mentor) team. Had Mall used a puppet to put the proposal forward, the RP community would probably still have mobilized to kick it in the teeth had it gone to a vote (because it's a really, really bad idea), but that would've been the end of it. Just another player who wants to dick with the RPers. Nothing new there, unfortunately.

But because it's a Mod doing it, and doing it wearing his Mod jacket, it says "The Mods want to dick with the RPers". The red jacket gives it FAR greater visibility. And, quite frankly, there's already a feeling in the RP community that the Mods...don't give a damn about us. People have talked to me about it. Some say there are Mods and Admins who are outright hostile to us.

Mall had to know all this going in. In fact he's been nothing but hostile to the RPers since the first post. This is a really, really troubling thing.

[Delmonte]

The fact of the matter is that Mallorea, as one of his first acts as a Moderator has intentionally by his own admission opened up a can of worms that gave his fellow Moderators an enormous headache months ago. I would like his removal as a Moderator to be on the table as he has gone and done the exact opposite of what a Moderator should do. Moderators are meant to keep the peace and he has intentionally angered a large segment of our community. After his little stunt I afford him zero respect as a Moderator and will not be able to take anything he says seriously. And that tarnishes the other Moderators, which is a shame because they're quite good.

Maybe I'm alone in this sentiment, but I don't think I am.

It really doesn't matter that he's not abusing his Mod powers, I admit that he's not. I would even be willing to admit he's not abusing his position. But he's dragging NationStates into the same Goddamn argument that got everyone so riled up just months prior! He's rabble-rousing, that's not what Mods should do.

[Kylarnatia]

The fact of the matter is that Mallorea, as one of his first acts as a Moderator has intentionally by his own admission opened up a can of worms that gave his fellow Moderators an enormous headache months ago. I would like his removal as a Moderator to be on the table as he has gone and done the exact opposite of what a Moderator should do. Moderators are meant to keep the peace and he has intentionally angered a large segment of our community. After his little stunt I afford him zero respect as a Moderator and will not be able to take anything he says seriously. And that tarnishes the other Moderators, which is a shame because they're quite good.

Maybe I'm alone in this sentiment, but I don't think I am.

You're not.

Furthermore, I'm personally quite frustrated by the mods shrugging this all off as "politics". It's not politics, it's fire-starting, pure and simple. If it was politics, it would not be as big as it has become. Mall has clearly gone out of his way to antagonise the roleplaying community, and now we're coming out in force and kicking the bucket. I would appreciate it if at least one of you could sit on our side of the fence and try and understand it from our point of view, in the absence of someone like Jenrak. I really would.

This issue isn't going to rest easy until both sides are given a fair ear. I'm presently not convinced that our side is getting it, although I will say I think we're starting to get on the right tracks.

[The Batorys]

The fact of the matter is that Mallorea, as one of his first acts as a Moderator has intentionally by his own admission opened up a can of worms that gave his fellow Moderators an enormous headache months ago. I would like his removal as a Moderator to be on the table as he has gone and done the exact opposite of what a Moderator should do. Moderators are meant to keep the peace and he has intentionally angered a large segment of our community. After his little stunt I afford him zero respect as a Moderator and will not be able to take anything he says seriously. And that tarnishes the other Moderators, which is a shame because they're quite good.

Maybe I'm alone in this sentiment, but I don't think I am.

He has deliberately antagonized the RP community by trying to do away with one of the few ways we have to opt-out of the R/D side of the game, for the purpose of wrecking a very old, notable RP region.

He's essentially trolling and bullying the RP community. How are we supposed to respect him after this?

I might not always agree with moderation, but I largely respect them. Except for this.

Instead of keeping the peace, he deliberately did something he knew would cause an incredibly angry thread, and make NS a more resentful, negative place. Aren't moderators supposed to moderate?

Like I said before, the moderators have a tough job and for the most part they do it well and keep NS decent. This is disappointing and would be unacceptable behavior from a player, let alone a mod.

[The Black Plains]

Beyond thinking that Mallorea's removal from Moderation should be on the table, I think it should be a precondition to future discussion. He clearly did this to ignite the same bad blood and shouting matches that occurred months ago. Absolutely shameful. Why would a Moderator of all people want to recreate the headache from before FOR Moderation? Certainly the other Moderators, not to say the RPing community, would resent him for it. Is Nervun having fun watching this unfold and moving and locking threads? I know I wouldn't be. And it's obvious where the blame lies. Off with his head. Metaphorically, obviously.

[Tiami]

The fact of the matter is that Mallorea, as one of his first acts as a Moderator has intentionally by his own admission opened up a can of worms that gave his fellow Moderators an enormous headache months ago. I would like his removal as a Moderator to be on the table as he has gone and done the exact opposite of what a Moderator should do. Moderators are meant to keep the peace and he has intentionally angered a large segment of our community. After his little stunt I afford him zero respect as a Moderator and will not be able to take anything he says seriously. And that tarnishes the other Moderators, which is a shame because they're quite good.

Maybe I'm alone in this sentiment, but I don't think I am.

You're not.

Furthermore, I'm personally quite frustrated by the mods shrugging this all off as "politics". It's not politics, it's fire-starting, pure and simple. If it was politics, it would not be as big as it has become. Mall has clearly gone out of his way to antagonise the roleplaying community, and now we're coming out in force and kicking the bucket. I would appreciate it if at least one of you could sit on our side of the fence and try and understand it from our point of view, in the absence of someone like Jenrak. I really would.

This issue isn't going to rest easy until both sides are given a fair ear. I'm presently not convinced that our side is getting it, although I will say I think we're starting to get on the right tracks.

I will also support Delmonte and Kyle.

This is a pressing issue that cannot be ignored. The roleplaying community as a whole does not wish to deal with the gameplay aspect of NS. We leave GP alone, yet we cannot be left alone? Shame.

[Unibot III]

This behavior is really typical of Mallorea - that's why his appointment as Moderator was all the more shocking when it was made. He's never shown the slightest care about keeping a cool forum and this kind of move was done purely to start a flame war - he's succeeded and now he's just jabbing at them. It's not "politics". It's about annoying people and causing some commotion.

[Delmonte]

You're not.

Furthermore, I'm personally quite frustrated by the mods shrugging this all off as "politics". It's not politics, it's fire-starting, pure and simple. If it was politics, it would not be as big as it has become. Mall has clearly gone out of his way to antagonise the roleplaying community, and now we're coming out in force and kicking the bucket. I would appreciate it if at least one of you could sit on our side of the fence and try and understand it from our point of view, in the absence of someone like Jenrak. I really would.

This issue isn't going to rest easy until both sides are given a fair ear. I'm presently not convinced that our side is getting it, although I will say I think we're starting to get on the right tracks.

I will also support Delmonte and Kyle.

This is a pressing issue that cannot be ignored. The roleplaying community as a whole does not wish to deal with the gameplay aspect of NS. We leave GP alone, yet we cannot be left alone? Shame.

First priority is that Mallorea should be unmodded. He's done something to intentionally start a flame, which is the exact opposite of what Mods are intended to do.

[Feazanthia]

As loathe as I am to invoke the "T" word, I must admit Mall's actions have been concurrent with those of an internet troll. And he is using his position to further those actions.

I must add my voice to the call for his resignation or removal from Moderator service.

[Kylarnatia]

Other key links for y'all weighing in on this debate.

The Mentor's Letter to the Mod Team concerning the issue
Discussion about R/D and RP Opt-out

[Mini Miehm]

As loathe as I am to invoke the "T" word, I must admit Mall's actions have been concurrent with those of an internet troll. And he is using his position to further those actions.

I must add my voice to the call for his resignation or removal from Moderator service.

I will also support Feaz in this matter. Barring his removal, I would at least move for his censure and temporary banning, as any player who had done wrong would be treated.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Independent from all the R/D vs. RP conflict, which belongs in a different thread, to me, this is indicative of a manner of behavior that - while it does not directly violate any rules, admittedly - is absolutely not the kind of thing Mods should be doing.

This move was clearly meant to start trouble given the obvious history of the issue at hand with Haven (something that Mallorea and Riva was deeply involved in), and it's telling that Mallorea and Riva decided to make this particular move after they were appointed to be a Mod. It smacks of an attempt to abuse their prominence and authority as a Moderator in a way that serves their perceived interests. This was knowingly meant to inflame the community, not to moderate it.

The mods should be allowed to play the game, true, but this genuinely blurs the line between "mod playing the game" and "mod using their position in a way knowingly intended to stir up conflict and ill-feelings in a way that is advantageous to them" in a way that is not in keeping, I believe, with how this site ought to be moderated.

This is not a political matter. This is a matter centered entirely around what constitutes appropriate behavior from those in a Moderation position, and this is not appropriate behavior.

It's also worth noting that had Mallorea and Riva had his way here, I suspect you other mods would be having a great deal more work to do as well, vis-a-vis flaming/trolling reports from his proposal.

[Questers]

Right. Again: I want to re-iterate the reason I made the complaint in the first place is not politics, but that:

(A) This move will almost definitely incite cross-community tensions.
(B) Moderator in question knows that.
(C) Moderator in question doesn't care.

I think that is worth a condemnation.

[Scolopendra]

Welcome to Gameplay, everyone. By our definition of trolling re: Gameplay and as per standard Gameplay precedent, none of this is trolling and therefore none of it is actionable and therefore more like than not no action will be taken. If I can RP no differently than I have since before I was a mod (long time ago, admittedly), then Mall can Gameplay just like he did before he became a mod. The only other option would be that he'd act through a puppet, at which point suddenly he'd be (rightfully) either accused of hiding his identity as a mod or applying a fig leaf to the situation.

That's all there is to it.

[Minnysota]

Liberations, the removal of passwords, has been around for years no. This. Is. Not. New. This is something [violet] herself has addressed. It is not changing game mechanics at all. It's using the current tools.

At least personally, I'm not arguing for the changing of game mechanics. However, players aren't forced to participate in R/D. It's also a bit stupid to tell regions to use passwords to avoid raiders and then come to the point where we are legitimately arguing whether passwords are fair because they restrict raiders.

Also, the most important thing I've learned from reading a moderator post on this issue is that [violet] is in fact a woman. I appreciate that.