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[Discussion] Diminutive names for politicians.

Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.

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Reploid Productions
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Postby Reploid Productions » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:00 pm

In practice, the rule came to be in response a few years back to a decided upswing in pejoratives such as "Republicunt," "Democrap," or "Libertard," along with similar "witty" nicknames for prominent members of those parties ("Mittens," "Obummer", etc.) The main goal was to cut down that sort of snarking that served absolutely no purpose save for to degrade and rile up people. Some comments are less crystal-clear, and would need to be looked at case-by-case in the full context of the conversation to make that determination.

The rule is mainly meant to deter the absurdly blatant non-debating garbage like the examples I've given, and technically falls under the umbrella of flamebaiting or trolling, but if there is other (and less US-centric) stuff of similar flavor going around, then fire up a Report thread with some links and point us at it so we know what we're looking for and can smack accordingly.
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Postby Lyttenburg » Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:07 pm

Farnhamia wrote:Perhaps. People who call Mrs. Thatcher the "Iron Lady" tend to be her fans, not her opponents.


Funny thing. Thatcher's nickname of "the Iron Lady" originated from the Soviet military newspaper "Красная Звезда" (Red Star), bestowed on her for an anti-communist speech in 1976 (while she wasn't a Prime Minister and was in opposition) and was not intended as a compliment.
Last edited by Lyttenburg on Mon Jun 16, 2014 2:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New Bierstaat
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Postby New Bierstaat » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:05 pm

Not to get off topic, but what about the kind of people who mock people's stances by switching words around or similar offenses? I feel that this should also be banned as it is inflammatory in nature and cannot really be argued with.

I can try to give an example if needed, but I can't think of one right now.
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United Marxist Nations
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:09 pm

New Bierstaat wrote:Not to get off topic, but what about the kind of people who mock people's stances by switching words around or similar offenses? I feel that this should also be banned as it is inflammatory in nature and cannot really be argued with.

I can try to give an example if needed, but I can't think of one right now.

You mean quote editing? That's been banned for a while now.
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Postby Euroslavia » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:10 pm

New Bierstaat wrote:Not to get off topic, but what about the kind of people who mock people's stances by switching words around or similar offenses? I feel that this should also be banned as it is inflammatory in nature and cannot really be argued with.

I can try to give an example if needed, but I can't think of one right now.

We don't give a blanket statement to hypotheticals, it's all case by case.

Edit: United Marxist Nations is correct, malicious quote editing has been against the rules. If you make it obvious that you did the editing, generally with strikeouts on the original quote, that can be acceptable.
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Postby Volnotova » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:14 pm

Lyttenburg wrote:Ok, how about that:

<snip>


Vlad the "Invader" actually ascribes a certain property/attitude/etc. to the politician in question.

While "Mittens" and "Obozo" just serve to ridicule and annoy political opponents while not offering anything that can be really 'discussed'.
Last edited by Volnotova on Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:18 pm

Volnotova wrote:
Lyttenburg wrote:Ok, how about that:

<snip>


Vlad the "Invader" actually ascribes a certain property/attitude/etc. to the politician in question.

While "Mittens" and "Obozo" just serve to ridicule and annoy political opponents while not offering anything that can be really 'discussed'.

"Petro-Vlad", "the anti-gay Russian Chippendale" and "Vladdy the bare-chested wonder-Slav"; however, do not.
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Postby Russian Socialist Soviet States » Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:55 pm

Do politicians deserve being called diminutive names?
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Postby Reploid Productions » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:11 pm

Russian Socialist Soviet States wrote:Do politicians deserve being called diminutive names?

Noooot really relevant to why we smack people here for using them.
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Postby Jumalariik » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:21 pm

My opinion is that what politicians do affects people in real ways. Putin for example may be a simple discussion topic for most, for some, his actions have real consequences. Same for the candidates for US president. Somebody could lose their job because of a candidate winning. This leads me to believe that diminutive names are not inherently bad because they are just people letting out anger over things that could be worth being angry about. Also, calling Obama "Obummer" is not harming anyone on NS personally, it is not calling a whole group of people bad, it is not a bad thing.
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Postby Reploid Productions » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:25 pm

Jumalariik wrote:My opinion is that what politicians do affects people in real ways. Putin for example may be a simple discussion topic for most, for some, his actions have real consequences. Same for the candidates for US president. Somebody could lose their job because of a candidate winning. This leads me to believe that diminutive names are not inherently bad because they are just people letting out anger over things that could be worth being angry about. Also, calling Obama "Obummer" is not harming anyone on NS personally, it is not calling a whole group of people bad, it is not a bad thing.

Also not relevant to why we smack folks for it on here.
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Mon Jun 16, 2014 6:51 pm

I am going to converge with this thread than create a new one, as it does have some of the same attributes (namely, derogative labeling). There is some tendency for some people to intentionally mislabel a certain ideology out of their own convictions or beliefs. While this could be solved with a simple ignore, I feel like it warrants at least some discussion (although it may be benign by itself). I feel like "intentional mislabeling" or say, calling a libertarian a "neofeudalist" or a communist a blanket level "Stalinist" (or something with negative connotations) 1.) adds nothing to the discussion at hand 2.) may derail whatever discussion is at hand by creating a semantics argument and 3.) may inflame or ostracize a group and 4.) could be construed as a form of trolling.
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Postby Costa Fierro » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:06 pm

I don't think my flag has offended anyone and I've had a number of people message me saying how my flag was funny or they liked it. It was meant to be amusing.

I can remove it if the powers that be deem it necessary.
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Postby United Marxist Nations » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:09 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:I don't think my flag has offended anyone and I've had a number of people message me saying how my flag was funny or they liked it. It was meant to be amusing.

I can remove it if the powers that be deem it necessary.

It just looks to me like, in addition to the anti-Chavez slogan that you have (or had) in your sig, to be an insult to Chavez. I, for one, have an admiration for Chavez, and I have to admit that it does make me a little angry. By no means do I think it should be taken down though.
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Postby Costa Fierro » Mon Jun 16, 2014 7:13 pm

United Marxist Nations wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:I don't think my flag has offended anyone and I've had a number of people message me saying how my flag was funny or they liked it. It was meant to be amusing.

I can remove it if the powers that be deem it necessary.

It just looks to me like, in addition to the anti-Chavez slogan that you have (or had) in your sig, to be an insult to Chavez. I, for one, have an admiration for Chavez, and I have to admit that it does make me a little angry. By no means do I think it should be taken down though.


The flag was meant to be funny, a joke. The signature is serious and NSG is well versed in what I thought of Chavez and his policies. The thing being, it's a difference of opinion. We both disagree on what we think of him.

That, and "Bolivarian socialism" didn't have the same ring.
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Postby Viritica » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:18 pm

Cerillium wrote:It's my understanding that the nicknames can lead to animosity from those that support the politician.

I don't understand diminutive name bans however. "King George" and "King George II" were common names for Presidents Bush on some (non-NS) forums and IRCs. Granted, "First Chimp" was annoying but Bush was portrayed that way in political satire comics during his presidency as well as referred to by that moniker (by his detractors). Likewise, I fail to see anything wrong with "O'Bummer". One of the delightful things about free speech is that we can poke fun of political leaders. We shouldn't be allowed to cross the line however. Referring to Obama as "O'bummer" is an expression of contempt for the man's policies (especially his health care).

I once called Obama "O'Bummer".

Utter bullshit, if you ask me.
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Postby Sturmtiger » Mon Jun 16, 2014 9:57 pm

The divided wrote:
Alosteq Diin Nastja wrote:(I'm assuming) Political nicknaming is a personal attack on an individual, therefore it would be more likely to be actionable.


A personal attack against politicians who probably don't even know this website exists?

Getting attacked personally is one of the job descriptions for politicians.
Yeah, why is attacking a politician who undoubtedly doesn't even use this site warrant a ban?

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Postby The divided » Mon Jun 16, 2014 10:08 pm

meh, I still don't see the big deal.

If you get offended because someone called Obama "obummer or obozo" or Romney "mittens or Rmoney", then you really need to grow thicker skin.

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Postby Farnhamia » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:05 am

Sturmtiger wrote:
The divided wrote:
A personal attack against politicians who probably don't even know this website exists?

Getting attacked personally is one of the job descriptions for politicians.
Yeah, why is attacking a politician who undoubtedly doesn't even use this site warrant a ban?

A warning, unless the person's record warrants a ban. I've explained why, the nicknames cannot be countered with any argument short of elementary school playground "Yeah? So's your old man!" type stuff. That coupled with their invariable use as pejoratives makes them trolling.
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Postby Lyttenburg » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:22 am

Farnhamia wrote:Political nicknames are considered trolling because they're used to annoy a politician's followers and can't really be argued with. Making attacks on a politician, such as the recent one where President Obama was called a "spineless coward," while also annoying can be contested. That's why nicknames are not allowed.


So to use in your post a well-know and widely known "nickname" is a big "NO" and a reason for warning? I've provided the example with Thatcher beign called "Iron Lady" by her political opponents and haven't seen the official mods ruling on that.

As for the other examples - let's take a look at the Ukraine and its political landscape. Before (long before) his election as the Ukrainian president oligarch Petro Poroshenko was called the "Chocolate King" (mainly by the Western and some Ukrainian press), and "Petya Porokh" ("Little Pete the Gun-Powder") in media. And that's not all:

- Julia Tymoshenko in the Ukraine is known simply as ВОНА ("Vona", "she" in Ukrainian), while the Western press still call her the "Gas Princess". Among her other nicknemes "Yulia Prekhitraya" ("Julia the Crafty One") and "Jul'ka Zolotaya Ruchka" (''Julia the Golden Hand")

- Ousted Ukrainian President Victor Yanukovitch is known as "Proffessor" (yes, with double "f") for his less then stellar knowledge of both Ukrainian and Russian languages.

- Former Ukrainian president that came to power on the wave of the "Orange Revolution" Victor Yushenko is known as "Pasechnik" ("Beekeeper")

- If not mentioning the PG-17 ones, Arseniy Jatsenyuk, even before he became a Prime Minister and Nuland's "Jats", was "Rabbi-t Senya", "That Sloth From the Ice Age", "Senya Gimme-a-Billion!" and many others.

So, users can't use such nicknames in their posts? Or can't even quote the articles, that call such politicians (or other VIPs) by such nicknames?
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Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Tue Jun 17, 2014 8:55 am

Once again ... not the same as using an intentionally-offensive name reference.

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Postby Lyttenburg » Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:44 am

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:Once again ... not the same as using an intentionally-offensive name reference.


And who decides what "intentionally-offensive name reference" is? "Iron Lady" was inteded as offensive nickname. Is it offensive to call Yanukovitch - "Panda" or Vitaliy Klitchko - "Hulk"? Maybe, I would be writing a post using one of these nicknames in completly innocent connotation, then got myself reported, because someone feels that, e.g., calling russian Prime Minister Dmitriy Medvedev "Jolly Gnome" is offensive. What are guideleines?
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Postby Farnhamia » Tue Jun 17, 2014 9:52 am

Lyttenburg wrote:
Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:Once again ... not the same as using an intentionally-offensive name reference.


And who decides what "intentionally-offensive name reference" is? "Iron Lady" was inteded as offensive nickname. Is it offensive to call Yanukovitch - "Panda" or Vitaliy Klitchko - "Hulk"? Maybe, I would be writing a post using one of these nicknames in completly innocent connotation, then got myself reported, because someone feels that, e.g., calling russian Prime Minister Dmitriy Medvedev "Jolly Gnome" is offensive. What are guideleines?

Guidelines? Be polite, control your temper and treat the others here as you'd like to be treated. You ought to be able to make your point without name-calling. Reports of individual posts are addressed individually, taking into account the context and the language.
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Postby Costa Fierro » Tue Jun 17, 2014 4:45 pm

So I can't call Helen Clark "Auntie Helen" (who is the former PM of NZ and was referred to as such by basically everyone here, supporters and detractors) even though it really isn't that offensive?

Anyway, what is the decision regarding my flag? Can I keep it or do I remove it?
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Postby Alyakia » Tue Jun 17, 2014 6:38 pm

Lyttenburg wrote:So to use in your post a well-know and widely known "nickname" is a big "NO" and a reason for warning? I've provided the example with Thatcher beign called "Iron Lady" by her political opponents and haven't seen the official mods ruling on that.


you've already basically been told by other posters that yes the soviets intended it as an insult but yeah no one in the year of our lord 2014 who is an opponent of thatcher calls her the iron lady.
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