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by Ainocra » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:19 am
by Unibotian WASC Mission » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:02 am
Grays Harbor wrote:We fail to see any legitimate purpose behind this. A special court for nationless people? Why? Should any person of any nationality, or lack thereof, commit a crime within the Kingdom, the trials shall be held by Crown Courts, not by some outside court which has dubious jurisdiction. We also view the "no capital punishment" clause to be a dangerous "first step" in outlawing all capital punishment.
by Glen-Rhodes » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:30 pm
Unibotian WASC Mission wrote:Err.. no. This proposal is only concerning multilateral captures of criminals, for example, if Grays Harbor captures a criminal in particpation with several nations (at least in the newest draft), than the ICA is the courthouse and the proper authority for justice. If the effort to catch the criminal is by your nation's own exclusive will, than you have rightful jurisdiction over the accused.
by Unibot » Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:08 pm
Glen-Rhodes wrote:Unibotian WASC Mission wrote:Err.. no. This proposal is only concerning multilateral captures of criminals, for example, if Grays Harbor captures a criminal in particpation with several nations (at least in the newest draft), than the ICA is the courthouse and the proper authority for justice. If the effort to catch the criminal is by your nation's own exclusive will, than you have rightful jurisdiction over the accused.
The text should probably be updated, then. There's no explicit statement about ICA jurisdiction applying only to criminals captured under coordinated police efforts between two or more nations.
Dr. Bradford William Castro
Ambassador-at-Large,
Permanent Chief of Mission for World Assembly affairs,
the Commonwealth of Glen-Rhodes
Vocenae wrote:Unibot, you have won NS.
by Unibot » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:12 am
Vocenae wrote:Unibot, you have won NS.
by NERVUN » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:39 am
by Unibot » Mon Apr 19, 2010 9:23 am
Vocenae wrote:Unibot, you have won NS.
by Bears Armed » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:45 am
NERVUN wrote:In terms of conflict with resolution #20 (International Piracy): No, I do not think that the no death penality conflicts with it as it is written.
by Unibot » Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:51 pm
NERVUN wrote:Bears Armed wrote:NERVUN wrote:In terms of conflict with resolution #20 (International Piracy): No, I do not think that the no death penality conflicts with it as it is written.
OOC: Really? So how much difference is a WA member nation allowed to introduce between the penalty that it imposes on anybody whom its legal system convicts on a charge of having committed a serious crime within their own territorires and the penalty that it imposes on anybody whom its legal system convicts on charges of having committed an equivalent comparable crime to that during an act of international piracy somewhere else without breaching Resolution #20's requirement that it must treat those two offences as equally serious?
If it was a member nation, none. We're talking about a coalition. #20 didn't specify just what happens when two nations make the arrest. Since you cannot split the pirate down the middle and kill one half while giving 5 to 20 to the other and since this deals with multinational efforts, there was juuuuuuuuuuuuuust enough wiggle room.
Vocenae wrote:Unibot, you have won NS.
by Glen-Rhodes » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:02 pm
NERVUN wrote:In regards to convicts, the way to avoid a WA Police would be to have the prisoners guarded in WA member states (As you stated) with the WA paying for the facilities rental and a "cost of guarding" charge. The WA in this case would be JUST renting space and spending some extra money for the priviledge of housing a prisoner there, nothing more. We could see a "Treatment of prisoners shall be according to WA resolutions" being added as this forbids the WA from giving orders to the guards.
NERVUN wrote:In effect, the WA rents space. It does not tell the member nation how to guard. It does not tell the member nation's guards to do something. And if the prisoner escapes, that's the fault of the member nation and they get to go after him, just not on WA authority.
by NERVUN » Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:34 pm
Glen-Rhodes wrote:.... Eh, transferred over to moderation.
Probably should have posted it here, and not in the topic.NERVUN wrote:In regards to convicts, the way to avoid a WA Police would be to have the prisoners guarded in WA member states (As you stated) with the WA paying for the facilities rental and a "cost of guarding" charge. The WA in this case would be JUST renting space and spending some extra money for the priviledge of housing a prisoner there, nothing more. We could see a "Treatment of prisoners shall be according to WA resolutions" being added as this forbids the WA from giving orders to the guards.
I will now submit the resolution I have been waiting to submit for months: the WA funding militias with the directive that those militias take down authoritarian regimes. (Or, to make it even more indirect: the WA funding militias who voluntarily choose to fight authoritarian regimes.) I mean, they're only renting the militias! ... Absolutely ridiculous there, so why not here?NERVUN wrote:In effect, the WA rents space. It does not tell the member nation how to guard. It does not tell the member nation's guards to do something. And if the prisoner escapes, that's the fault of the member nation and they get to go after him, just not on WA authority.
It tells the nation to detain the person; I don't know how that isn't "telling the member nation's guards to do something".The WA sending prisoners to other nations, and funding the operation of those prisons, is the same thing as the WA having prisons itself and detaining persons itself. It's like extraordinary rendition, to draw a real-world parallel.
The way I read it, this ruling opens the floodgates to the WA becoming a World Police, albeit indirectly. Anything the rules prevents us from doing in regards to the "no police" thing, we can just do by using nations as proxies for our own ends. Where is the limit? What explicitly is the WA not allowed to do, when using other nations to carry out its operations?
by Bears Armed » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:54 am
Glen-Rhodes wrote:.... Eh, transferred over to moderation.
Probably should have posted it here, and not in the topic.NERVUN wrote:In regards to convicts, the way to avoid a WA Police would be to have the prisoners guarded in WA member states (As you stated) with the WA paying for the facilities rental and a "cost of guarding" charge. The WA in this case would be JUST renting space and spending some extra money for the priviledge of housing a prisoner there, nothing more. We could see a "Treatment of prisoners shall be according to WA resolutions" being added as this forbids the WA from giving orders to the guards.
I will now submit the resolution I have been waiting to submit for months: the WA funding militias with the directive that those militias take down authoritarian regimes. (Or, to make it even more indirect: the WA funding militias who voluntarily choose to fight authoritarian regimes.) I mean, they're only renting the militias! ... Absolutely ridiculous there, so why not here?NERVUN wrote:In effect, the WA rents space. It does not tell the member nation how to guard. It does not tell the member nation's guards to do something. And if the prisoner escapes, that's the fault of the member nation and they get to go after him, just not on WA authority.
The way I read it, this ruling opens the floodgates to the WA becoming a World Police, albeit indirectly. Anything the rules prevents us from doing in regards to the "no police" thing, we can just do by using nations as proxies for our own ends. Where is the limit? What explicitly is the WA not allowed to do, when using other nations to carry out its operations?
Rights and Duties of WA States
A resolution to restrict political freedoms in the interest of law and order.
Category: Political Stability
Strength: Mild
Proposed by: Frisbeeteria
Description: *(snip)*
Section III:
The Role of the World Assembly:
Article 8 § Every WA Member State has the right to equality in law with every other WA Member State.
Article 9 § Every WA Member State has the duty to carry out in good faith its obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law, including this World Assembly, and it may not invoke provisions in its constitution or its laws as an excuse for failure to perform this duty.
Article 10 § Whilst WA Member States may engage in wars, the World Assembly as a body maintains neutrality in matters of civil and international strife. As such, the WA will not engage in commanding, organising, ratifying, denouncing, or otherwise participating in armed conflicts, police actions, or military activities under the WA banner.
*(snip)*
by Glen-Rhodes » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:50 pm
Bears Armed wrote:"Ahem!"
by NERVUN » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:36 pm
Glen-Rhodes wrote:NERVUN wrote:In regards to convicts, the way to avoid a WA Police would be to have the prisoners guarded in WA member states (As you stated) with the WA paying for the facilities rental and a "cost of guarding" charge. The WA in this case would be JUST renting space and spending some extra money for the priviledge of housing a prisoner there, nothing more. We could see a "Treatment of prisoners shall be according to WA resolutions" being added as this forbids the WA from giving orders to the guards.
I will now submit the resolution I have been waiting to submit for months: the WA funding militias with the directive that those militias take down authoritarian regimes. (Or, to make it even more indirect: the WA funding militias who voluntarily choose to fight authoritarian regimes.) I mean, they're only renting the militias! ... Absolutely ridiculous there, so why not here?
Glen-Rhodes wrote:NERVUN wrote:In effect, the WA rents space. It does not tell the member nation how to guard. It does not tell the member nation's guards to do something. And if the prisoner escapes, that's the fault of the member nation and they get to go after him, just not on WA authority.
It tells the nation to detain the person; I don't know how that isn't "telling the member nation's guards to do something".The WA sending prisoners to other nations, and funding the operation of those prisons, is the same thing as the WA having prisons itself and detaining persons itself. It's like extraordinary rendition, to draw a real-world parallel.
The way I read it, this ruling opens the floodgates to the WA becoming a World Police, albeit indirectly. Anything the rules prevents us from doing in regards to the "no police" thing, we can just do by using nations as proxies for our own ends. Where is the limit? What explicitly is the WA not allowed to do, when using other nations to carry out its operations?
by Glen-Rhodes » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:31 pm
NERVUN wrote:Big difference between the WA renting militas to go after authoritarian regimes as ID'd by the WA, with WA patches on the uniforms, and the WA paying for (a) member nation(s) to contain prisoners judged by the WA.
NERVUN wrote:Er, no. Look at it this way, I want to build a house. I hire a construction company. I tell them what I want (House) and where I want it (There). THEY decide how to build it. I cannot tell them how to pound the nails. If they want to use a hammer, a rock, the Force, it's up to them. I do not own the construction company in the meantime, nor do I own the workers. I am only contracting. etc ...
NERVUN wrote:The service here is that the WA nation agrees to receive the prisoner. The WA cannot tell the host nation HOW to keep the prisoner (Beyond treatment as already prescribed by WA resolutions). So if it's a jail, a force field, suspended animation, sent into the Phantom Zone, it's not the WA's business. They cannot do anything beyond providing money for the custodial service.
by Unibot » Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:09 pm
Glen-Rhodes wrote:So, just tell me if I'm wrong and why: the WA can fund militias that fight against X***, so long as it isn't telling those militias how to go through with that mission. When asked the question, "Is the WA telling someone to go do something militarily or in a law enforcement effort?", the proposer answers: "No. The WA is only providing funds to militias that fight against X. The WA is not ever telling militias to fight against X." Or it could even be a proposal funding police forces that do X, without the WA actually telling the police to do X. If there's a problem with that, then there's a serious problem with the ruling.
Vocenae wrote:Unibot, you have won NS.
by Glen-Rhodes » Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:15 pm
Unibot wrote:First of all, I'd say if its a nation you plan on sending militia to fight.. you're out of luck, because it contradicts war by definition in GA #2. Because its otherwise metagaming to suggest that the WA will fight a nation through any means, because it will either interfere with the sovereignty of a non-WA nation or not effect all WA nations evenly (some will be 'attacked' and some will not -- and we have no means of showing the effect of war, in-game, at the moment).
by Unibot » Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:04 pm
Glen-Rhodes wrote:Unibot wrote:First of all, I'd say if its a nation you plan on sending militia to fight.. you're out of luck, because it contradicts war by definition in GA #2. Because its otherwise metagaming to suggest that the WA will fight a nation through any means, because it will either interfere with the sovereignty of a non-WA nation or not effect all WA nations evenly (some will be 'attacked' and some will not -- and we have no means of showing the effect of war, in-game, at the moment).
The key point is that the World Assembly isn't telling militias what to do at all. It's not saying, "Go to war." It's saying, "If your group does happen to fight against X, you will receive funding." That does affect all nations equally; all nations have the same opportunity to choose to fight against X. It's not an issue of the WA declaring war, but rather an issue of the WA funding militias that choose to do something the WA views as worthy of funds. And I don't want to pigeon-hole the effects of the ruling to the WA funding militias. My point is that the WA can do anything its otherwise restricted from doing by providing funds to member nations who will take up the mantle. The militia issue is simply the best example of the negative impacts of such a ruling.
On a side-note, I don't think we can call that metagaming, unless we call a lot of other things metagaming as well. The WA is providing funds to militias; what they do with those funds is out of our hands. Yes, those funds may go towards affecting non-WA nations. But the WA isn't directly doing anything to non-WA nations, nor is it ever advocating the attacking of non-WA nations. Nearly everything the WA does affects non-WA nations this way. That is, through choices WA nations make that are facilitated, as a byproduct and not a direct edict, by WA resolutions.
Vocenae wrote:Unibot, you have won NS.
by Glen-Rhodes » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:06 pm
by Quadrimmina » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:38 pm
by NERVUN » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:45 pm
Quadrimmina wrote:The Republic of Quadrimmina would like to voice its concern about allowing an international court jurisdiction over stateless individuals that are present in a nation that has laws that the stateless individual must abide by, much like an immigrant, tourist, or citizen. By this logic, the court of law responsible for that jurisdiction should be responsible for most arbitration. This should be more a protection of stateless individuals from unfair persecution than a creation of a new court system for the purpose of handling stateless individuals.
by Quadrimmina » Thu Apr 22, 2010 6:49 pm
NERVUN wrote:Quadrimmina wrote:The Republic of Quadrimmina would like to voice its concern about allowing an international court jurisdiction over stateless individuals that are present in a nation that has laws that the stateless individual must abide by, much like an immigrant, tourist, or citizen. By this logic, the court of law responsible for that jurisdiction should be responsible for most arbitration. This should be more a protection of stateless individuals from unfair persecution than a creation of a new court system for the purpose of handling stateless individuals.
IC (Yeah, I know, wrong nation, but got a lot of pots boiling right now):
Honored ambassador, I wish to point out something that seems to have escaped your attention, the current resolution calls for stateless individuals who have commited crimes and were arrested due to a multi-national effort. In such a case, honored ambassador, the jurisdiction would not be clear.
Regards,
Katsuyama Masashiro, Capt.
Ambassador
by Glen-Rhodes » Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:07 pm
by Unibot » Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:47 am
Glen-Rhodes wrote:Aside from the funding issue, there is something else that I think should be addressed, which I believe has not been covered by existing legislation (and thus which falls under the last clause). The language offers no venue or mechanism for appeals, whether on the basis of misconduct, trial errors, new evidence, or a writ of habeas corpus. This is inconsistent with the court system in Glen-Rhodes and I assume many other nations in the World Assembly. Without the right of an appeal, the ICA would in fact be a step down in civil rights for stateless persons captured by 'multilateral efforts' of which Glen-Rhodes is part.
Dr. Bradford William Castro
Ambassador-at-Large,
Permanent Chief of Mission for World Assembly affairs,
the Commonwealth of Glen-Rhodes
Vocenae wrote:Unibot, you have won NS.
by Unibot » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:45 am
Vocenae wrote:Unibot, you have won NS.
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