Russia - Gay Rights - Sochi Olympics Megathread

[Shofercia]

What's Putin's objection to homosexuality?

I don't know if he has one personally, but Russian culture is and always has been deeply homophibic and authoritarian. This is nothing more than a political move on his part.

I can't say I can blame the government for doing something it's people overwhelmingly approve of, but that doesn't make it any less barbaric and horrifying. As for how it relates to the Olympics, and whether or not certain nations should not attend, I think that's silly. The Olympics has always been about setting aside differences and rivlries, and coming together in unity. It's easy to say that when you're not the ones having to go to a foreign, ideologically opposite nation. But now is the time to prove whether or not we actually believe that.

NOT AGAIN!

Uff!

RUSSIAN...CULTURE...HAS...NO...OPINION...OF...HOMOSEXUALITY!

Shofercia, assuming you are Russian, what methods would you propose to bring down these Russian statutes that are in flagrant violation of international law for good and speedily so?

Associate those who persecute Gay Rights with Stalinists. Associate Gay Rights with something really positive. Ensure that Russia actually adheres to CoE's Court's rulings on Gay Rights. There are two reasons why Gay Rights are prosecuted in Russia:

1. Stalinism, and Soviet bullshit about Gays.
2. Associating Gay Rights with the Decadent 1990s.

You defeat those biases, and Gays will have Rights in Russia. Information - i.e. label blogs/websites as adult, and use them to discuss Gay Rights. It's not propagating to kids, if it's limited to adults, even though kids might click on it, just like kids might visit certain porn websites associated with Youtube. (Not sure if I'm allowed to say the name on NSG.) And I'm fairly certain that porn existed in Russia prior to the 1990s, and continues to exist after the 1990s. Additionally, as far as I remember, (and Urmanian can probably correct me about the date,) but the best Gay Pride Parade in Russia was in 2009, and only problem in 2009 for Russia was economic stagnation, and I highly doubt that Gays caused the banking crash. If you want a specific example, I've mentioned the Sochi Rainbow Protests numerous times.

Uff!

[Pacifornia]

Tell that to the Occupy Pedophilia folks in Moscow. Why is homophobia so prevalent there? It makes the Bible Belt look tolerant!

Moscow's the only Russian city that's overcrowded. When you're overcrowded, sadly, you look for who to kick out. That's why I proposed that there be a voluntary resettlement program, the Russian Version of the Homestead Act. "If you move away from Moscow, you get free land in Siberia, or the Far East. And btw, contrary to bullshit stereotypes - Siberia's an awesome place to live, if you have the basics. I say this from personal experience: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/24268422.jpg

And, and constant Soviet anti-LGBT bashing that affected Moscow the most.

I can assure you that if those homophobes practice Tesak's bullshittery in California, they'd get called out so fast before you could say "hamburgers and freedom". Anyways, what is going on with that smug bastard? Is he being treated like a hero or something? Not flaming you

[Shofercia]

Moscow's the only Russian city that's overcrowded. When you're overcrowded, sadly, you look for who to kick out. That's why I proposed that there be a voluntary resettlement program, the Russian Version of the Homestead Act. "If you move away from Moscow, you get free land in Siberia, or the Far East. And btw, contrary to bullshit stereotypes - Siberia's an awesome place to live, if you have the basics. I say this from personal experience: http://static.panoramio.com/photos/large/24268422.jpg

And, and constant Soviet anti-LGBT bashing that affected Moscow the most.

I can assure you that if those homophobes practice Tesak's bullshittery in California, they'd get called out so fast before you could say "hamburgers and freedom". Anyways, what is going on with that smug bastard? Is he being treated like a hero or something? Not flaming you

No, he isn't. The problem is that we don't know how many recruits he has, and how many people he's connected to. To quote Pokemon, as applied to Tesak and his scumbags: "Gotta catch them all!" And unfortunately, preparing such a net takes time. Interestingly enough RuNet has rejected his appeal, so he's only a "hero" to like 0.0001% of the population, and probably even less.

Also, thank you for that post, I'm sure that you're raising valid concerns that others have, and you're doing it in a very civil manner, well, as civil as can be for discussing Tesak and Co

[Pacifornia]

I can assure you that if those homophobes practice Tesak's bullshittery in California, they'd get called out so fast before you could say "hamburgers and freedom". Anyways, what is going on with that smug bastard? Is he being treated like a hero or something? Not flaming you

No, he isn't. The problem is that we don't know how many recruits he has, and how many people he's connected to. To quote Pokemon, as applied to Tesak and his scumbags: "Gotta catch them all!" And unfortunately, preparing such a net takes time. Interestingly enough RuNet has rejected his appeal, so he's only a "hero" to like 0.0001% of the population, and probably even less.

Also, thank you for that post, I'm sure that you're raising valid concerns that others have, and you're doing it in a very civil manner, well, as civil as can be for discussing Tesak and Co

My pleasure my Russian friend! I brought this up since he has a website and merchandise and books and a hand symbol that are being posted all over Instagram and Twitter. That stuff gets here to the states pretty dang fast. I can't imagine Jeff Schoep (National Socialist Movement) being popular here.

[Aurora Novus]

NOT AGAIN!

Uff!

RUSSIAN...CULTURE...HAS...NO...OPINION...OF...HOMOSEXUALITY!

So you're denying the fact that laws against homosexuals have been made frequently in the past in Russia, and that overwhelmingly the population is opposed to homosexuality? Russia has a huge history of homophobia, and it's still pervasive in the culture today. To deny that is to deny obvious reality.

[Aurora Novus]

I don't know if he has one personally, but Russian culture is and always has been deeply homophibic and authoritarian. This is nothing more than a political move on his part.

I can't say I can blame the government for doing something it's people overwhelmingly approve of, but that doesn't make it any less barbaric and horrifying.

What's "Barbaric" or "horrifying" about it?

You do not see it as barbaric or horrifying that a society is overwhelmingly against people for something so harmless, and has laws against the mere act of supporting it in speech? Do you really not see how?

[Shofercia]

NOT AGAIN!

Uff!

RUSSIAN...CULTURE...HAS...NO...OPINION...OF...HOMOSEXUALITY!

So you're denyign the fact that laws against homosexuals have been made frequently in the past in Russia, and that overwhelmingly the population is opposed to homosexuality? Russia has a huge history of homophobia, and it's still pervasive in the culture today. To deny that is to deny obvious reality.

What parts of Russian Culture are Homophobic? I'm well aware that Governments are, but in Russia, the Government doesn't shape the Culture. During Soviet Times, the Culture rebelled against the Government, but did so under the radar. This can be seen in KVN's most popular joke, "party, can you give me power?" in the most popular student joke, "if Communist = Electrification + Party, does Electrification = Communism - Party?" the most popular movie, which starts out with a huge criticism against the bureaucracy, etc. Sadly, in terms of LGBT Rights, the population was influenced by the Soviet Government.

[Shofercia]

No, he isn't. The problem is that we don't know how many recruits he has, and how many people he's connected to. To quote Pokemon, as applied to Tesak and his scumbags: "Gotta catch them all!" And unfortunately, preparing such a net takes time. Interestingly enough RuNet has rejected his appeal, so he's only a "hero" to like 0.0001% of the population, and probably even less.

Also, thank you for that post, I'm sure that you're raising valid concerns that others have, and you're doing it in a very civil manner, well, as civil as can be for discussing Tesak and Co

My pleasure my Russian friend! I brought this up since he has a website and merchandise and books and a hand symbol that are being posted all over Instagram and Twitter. That stuff gets here to the states pretty dang fast. I can't imagine Jeff Schoep (National Socialist Movement) being popular here.

Does it say who his resellers are?

[Pacifornia]

My pleasure my Russian friend! I brought this up since he has a website and merchandise and books and a hand symbol that are being posted all over Instagram and Twitter. That stuff gets here to the states pretty dang fast. I can't imagine Jeff Schoep (National Socialist Movement) being popular here.

Does it say who his resellers are?

No, why? I can't read Cyrillic lol is that important?

[Aurora Novus]

What parts of Russian Culture are Homophobic? I'm well aware that Governments are, but in Russia, the Government doesn't shape the Culture.

You're correct, if it's a properly functioning democracy. Culture shapes government.

Therefore, we can look at the actions of government, and see in it a reflection of the culture.

Do you deny that the government's actions are overwhemingly supported? Do you deny that the people of Russia overwhemingly think homosexuality is immoral? Do you deny that people in Russia are overwhemingly homophobic?

Do you deny that for centuries, Russian society has taken a strong, anti-gay stance?

If so, I'm afaid you must be talking out of your ass.

[Shofercia]

What parts of Russian Culture are Homophobic? I'm well aware that Governments are, but in Russia, the Government doesn't shape the Culture.

You're correct, if it's a properly functioning democracy. Culture shapes government.

Therefore, we can look at the actions of government, and see in it a reflection of the culture.

Do you deny that the government's actions are overwhemingly supported? Do you deny that the people of Russia overwhemingly think homosexuality is immoral? Do you deny that people in Russia are overwhemingly homophobic?

Do you deny that for centuries, Russian society has taken a strong, anti-gay stance?

If so, I'm afaid you must be talking out of your ass.

I asked you to name a single part of Russian Culture that's homophobic. You failed. Instead, you misread my post, so let me tell you where you went wrong: I never said that Russia was a properly functioning democracy, (however one defines that,) or that Culture shaped Government. I said Government doesn't shape Culture. That's not the same as Culture shapes Government. Additionally, the majority of people in Russia don't want to hunt down teh Gay, or anything like that, so I wouldn't say that most Russians are extraordinarily homophobic. I did say that during Stalinism there was massive oppression, including Gays, and after Stalinism Gays were mistreated, by the Government. As for the claim that for centuries Russian Society had a strong anti-gay stance, at least in relation to Russia's Neighbors, I'm sorry, you're shitting me, right?

[Aurora Novus]

Yes "harmless", ignore that fact that STD rates among Homosexuals are extremely higher,

And that harms you how? Consented risk is not something you should be worried about, becaue it does not impact you in any meaningful way. Ergo, harmless.

that "gay culture" is essentially effeminant

And this is harmful how? Let alone the fact that it's not entirely true. Homosexuality =/= Effeminant. I assure you, there are plenty of very masculine homosexuals. And historically, homosexuality has been seen in some parts of the world as a very "manly" thing.

, hedonistic

Why on earth is this a bad thing? It brings pleasure, that's a positive thing. Pleasure is not immoral.

debauched

Nonsense. Sexuality is not immoral. Sexual pleasure is not immoral.

and annoying as hell.

Your subjective tastes are your own. They are not, however, and objective judgement.

And that's essentially what the laws against, the nauseating display of it in society, so far as i've seen it's not actually illegaly to be Gay in Russia, their not executing them in the street.

It's illegal to show any signs of support oh homosexuality in Russia. It's a ban on speech, and by extension, a soft-ban on homosexuality.

So no i don't really see any issue at all, let alon it being "barbaric" or "Horryfying".

If there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, there is no reason to persecute those who support it. It's horrifying that people can be punished for being, or showing support for, those who have a mere difference in orientation.

Even those "tortures" (they slap them around a bit) of Gays by right wingers in Russia are primarily focused on either Pedophiles or dumb gay kids trying to get involved with Pedophiles for money.

Classy. I'm going to need to see some evidence for that. I think you're just talking out of your ass, associating homosexuality with pedophilia, as people of your kind so often enjoy doing.

[Shofercia]

Does it say who his resellers are?

No, why? I can't read Cyrillic lol is that important?

Here's the thing. When his gang of miscreants is busted, it's important to get them all, so that someone else doesn't become another Tesak. Resellers might lead the authorities to some of Tesak's gang members. Although I was joking about NSG helping with that, because I'm sure that the cops are already doing something similar.

[Aurora Novus]

You're correct, if it's a properly functioning democracy. Culture shapes government.

Therefore, we can look at the actions of government, and see in it a reflection of the culture.

Do you deny that the government's actions are overwhemingly supported? Do you deny that the people of Russia overwhemingly think homosexuality is immoral? Do you deny that people in Russia are overwhemingly homophobic?

Do you deny that for centuries, Russian society has taken a strong, anti-gay stance?

If so, I'm afaid you must be talking out of your ass.

I asked you to name a single part of Russian Culture that's homophobic. You failed.

The ideas held and practised by a population are not part of it's culture? I'm sorry, what do you think culture is?

Instead, you misread my post, so let me tell you where you went wrong: I never said that Russia was a properly functioning democracy,

Well if you don't think that, then it stands to reason government can influence culture, and therefore, your initial comment about it not influencing culture is simply wrong.

(however one defines that,) or that Culture shaped Government. I said Government doesn't shape Culture. That's not the same as Culture shapes Government.

I never said it was. I said it as a response to your idea. In a democracy, culture shapes government. People elect leaders who make laws that reflect the ideas of the people of that time.

Additionally, the majority of people in Russia don't want to hunt down teh Gay, or anything like that, so I wouldn't say that most Russians are extraordinary homophobic.

Really?

Public opinion in Russia tends to be among the most hostile toward homosexuality in the world—outside predominantly Muslim countries and some parts of Asia—and the level of intolerance has been rising. A 2013 survey found that 74% of Russians said homosexuality should not be accepted by society (up from 60% in 2002), compared to 16% who said that homosexuality should be accepted by society. In a 2007 survey, 68% of Russians said homosexuality is always wrong (54%) or almost always wrong (14%). In a 2005 poll, 44% of Russians were in favor of making homosexual acts between consenting adults a criminal act; at the same time, 43% of Russians supported a legal ban on discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. In 2013, 16% of Russians surveyed said that gay people should be isolated from society, 22% said they should be forced to undergo treatment, and 5% said homosexuals should be "liquidated".

Please, tell me again about how the Russian people are not deeply homophobic, when 74% of them say homosexuality should not be accepted by society?

I did say that during Stalinism there was massive oppression, including Gays, and after Stalinism Gays were mistreated, by the Government.

And before Stalin as well. Again, Russia has a long history fo this stuff. Are you not aware of Russia's history?

As for the claim that for centuries Russian Society had a strong anti-gay stance, at least in relation to Russia's Neighbors, I'm sorry, you're shitting me, right?

Apparently you aren't aware. You do realize that for centuries religious officials and community formed militias punished people for homosexuality, or even just cross-dressing, right? You realize, as far back as Ivan the Terrible, people were using accusations of homosexulity as an attempt to slander somebody, right? The history of Russia is absolutely coloured with homophobia.

[Pacifornia]

You do not see it as barbaric or horrifying that a society is overwhelmingly against people for something so harmless, and has laws against the mere act of supporting it in speech? Do you really not see how?

Yes "harmless", ignore that fact that STD rates among Homosexuals are much higher, that "gay culture" is essentially effeminant, hedonistic, debauched and annoying as hell.

And that's essentially what the laws against, the nauseating display of it in society, so far as i've seen it's not actually illegaly to be Gay in Russia, their not executing them in the street.

So no i don't really see any issue at all, let alone it being "barbaric" or "horrifying".

Even those "tortures" (they slap them around a bit) of Gays by right wingers in Russia are primarily focused on either Pedophiles or dumb gay kids trying to get involved with Pedophiles for money.

You sure like to believe in stereotypes hm? Gender roles are not static. Annoying as hell? I find Westboro telling me I'm a "fag enabler" way more annoying than two guys holding hands. Nobody is forcing you to be gay and nobody is forcing me either. As Morrissey said "If you don't like me, don't look at me." Simple as that.

[Aequalitia]

You do not see it as barbaric or horrifying that a society is overwhelmingly against people for something so harmless, and has laws against the mere act of supporting it in speech? Do you really not see how?

Yes "harmless", ignore that fact that STD rates among Homosexuals are much higher, that "gay culture" is essentially effeminant, hedonistic, debauched and annoying as hell.

And that's essentially what the laws against, the nauseating display of it in society, so far as i've seen it's not actually illegaly to be Gay in Russia, their not executing them in the street.

So no i don't really see any issue at all, let alone it being "barbaric" or "horrifying".

Even those "tortures" (they slap them around a bit) of Gays by right wingers in Russia are primarily focused on either Pedophiles or dumb gay kids trying to get involved with Pedophiles for money.

And got you any (neutral) proof that the STD rate by gays are higher then heterosexuals? And how the "gay culture" is annoying in you eyes?

This laws force some people to not share there harmless feelings in public, its censorship and this law also harms the human rights in my eyes. A male who kiss a woman does not harm someone, so why it would be harm someone if a male/female kiss someone from the same sex?

The tortures are not just slaps, it is heavy violence and its sadly even 'normal' that someone dies in Russia of violence because his/her feelings. And then not to forget how much are raped also because this.

And the most hateful what you told there is that you say that gays are pedophiles. You are just so....well, I don't think I can discuss with you.

[Shofercia]

I asked you to name a single part of Russian Culture that's homophobic. You failed.

The ideas held and practised by a population are not part of it's culture? I'm sorry, what do you think culture is?

Some ideas are, and some ideas aren't. Culture is about ideas that stay. There are also Government Ideas and Cultural Ideas. It's an extremely complex topic, especially when it comes to Russia.

Instead, you misread my post, so let me tell you where you went wrong: I never said that Russia was a properly functioning democracy,

Well if you don't think that, then it stands to reason government can influence culture, and theefore, your initial comment about it not influencing culture is simply wrong.

I can raise my arm in the next ten seconds. Doesn't mean that I will. Government can influence culture, but that doesn't mean that it will.

(however one defines that,) or that Culture shaped Government. I said Government doesn't shape Culture. That's not the same as Culture shapes Government.

I never said it was. I said it as a response to your idea. In a democracy, culture shapes government. People elect leaders who make laws that reflect the ideas of the people of that time.

Really? Is that why the Proposition Process, a huge part of California's Culture, is constantly dissed by the Government?

Additionally, the majority of people in Russia don't want to hunt down teh Gay, or anything like that, so I wouldn't say that most Russians are extraordinary homophobic.

Really?

Public opinion in Russia tends to be among the most hostile toward homosexuality in the world—outside predominantly Muslim countries and some parts of Asia—and the level of intolerance has been rising. A 2013 survey found that 74% of Russians said homosexuality should not be accepted by society (up from 60% in 2002), compared to 16% who said that homosexuality should be accepted by society. In a 2007 survey, 68% of Russians said homosexuality is always wrong (54%) or almost always wrong (14%). In a 2005 poll, 44% of Russians were in favor of making homosexual acts between consenting adults a criminal act; at the same time, 43% of Russians supported a legal ban on discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. In 2013, 16% of Russians surveyed said that gay people should be isolated from society, 22% said they should be forced to undergo treatment, and 5% said homosexuals should be "liquidated".

Please, tell me again about how the Russian people are not deeply homophobic, when 74% of them say homosexuality should not be accepted by society?

By extraordinarily homophobic, I was referring to groups that don't have a 50% approval rating. Hence the term I used was extraordinarily, which is a harsher term than just deeply homophobic. Obviously neither is acceptable, but one should notice a difference between most people saying "we don't want Gays" and most people saying "isolate the Gays!" It's important to note these differences if one is to work to improve Gay Rights in Russia, isntead of just going "dat Russki Kultur, sho unshivilized!"

I did say that during Stalinism there was massive oppression, including Gays, and after Stalinism Gays were mistreated, by the Government.

And before Stalin as well. Again, Russia has a long history fo this stuff. Are you not aware of Russia's history?

I am very well aware, but you, very clearly, aren't:

Homosexuality has been documented in Russia for centuries. Government attempts at preventing homosexual practices began in the 18th century, with Tsar Peter the Great banning homosexual relations in the armed forces in 1716, as a part of his attempt to modernise the country. In 1832 further laws were enacted criminalising certain sexual acts between two males; however, an LGBT subculture developed in Russia during that century, with many significant Russians being openly homosexual or bisexual.

In 1917, the Russian Revolution saw the overthrow of the Tsarist government, and the subsequent foundation of the Russian SFSR, the world's first socialist state, followed by the founding of the Soviet Union after the end of the civil war in 1922. The new Communist Party government eradicated the old laws regarding sexual relations, effectively legalising homosexual activity within Russia, although it remained illegal in other former territories of the Russian Empire. Under Lenin's leadership, openly gay people were allowed to serve in government. In 1933, the Soviet government, under the leadership of Joseph Stalin, recriminalised homosexual activity...

Apparently you aren't aware. You do realize that for centuries religious officials and community formed militias punished people for homosexuality, or even just cross-dressing, right? You realize, as far back as Ivan the Terrible, people were using accusations of homosexulity as an attempt to slander somebody, right? The history of Russia is absolutely coloured with homophobia.

By shitstorians. Ivan the Terrible went insane after the assassination of his wife, so that's not exactly a shining example. And since Peter the Great criminalized it, and even then, only in the army, I'm going to go on a limb here, and say that *gasp* it must've been legal before it was criminalized!

[Cameroi]

i don't like any of those choices. i don't believe putin represents the will of the russian people, and putin is the problem.
america backed the wrong side in the war between the russian executive and its congress (when it supported the russian executive against its elected but supposedly 'marxist' congress). today's russia, with all its ills, is the price of that stupiditiy of ideological prejudice.

not just that one turning point incident of course, but american lead policy all along.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

i don't like any of those choices. i don't believe putin represents the will of the russian people, and putin is the problem.
america backed the wrong side in the war between the russian executive and its congress (when it supported the russian executive against its elected but supposedly 'marxist' congress). today's russia, with all its ills, is the price of that stupiditiy of ideological prejudice.

not just that one turning point incident of course, but american lead policy all along.

Tiger's 1st Rule of NSG (America's always to blame! Everywhere! Anytime! For everything!) remains undefeated!

[Pacifornia]

Yes "harmless", ignore that fact that STD rates among Homosexuals are much higher, that "gay culture" is essentially effeminant, hedonistic, debauched and annoying as hell.

And that's essentially what the laws against, the nauseating display of it in society, so far as i've seen it's not actually illegaly to be Gay in Russia, their not executing them in the street.

So no i don't really see any issue at all, let alone it being "barbaric" or "horrifying".

Even those "tortures" (they slap them around a bit) of Gays by right wingers in Russia are primarily focused on either Pedophiles or dumb gay kids trying to get involved with Pedophiles for money.

And got you any (neutral) proof that the STD rate by gays are higher then heterosexuals? And how the "gay culture" is annoying in you eyes?

This laws force some people to not share there harmless feelings in public, its censorship and this law also harms the human rights in my eyes. A male who kiss a woman does not harm someone, so why it would be harm someone if a male/female kiss someone from the same sex?

The tortures are not just slaps, it is heavy violence and its sadly even 'normal' that someone dies in Russia of violence because his/her feelings. And then not to forget how much are raped also because this.

And the most hateful what you told there is that you say that gays are pedophiles. You are just so....well, I don't think I can discuss with you.

I find cyclists not caring about pedestrians and drivers annoying. Do you see me advocating for the banning of bikes on streets? Nope. Argument invalid. Good day Yankeesse.

[Cameroi]

i don't like any of those choices. i don't believe putin represents the will of the russian people, and putin is the problem.
america backed the wrong side in the war between the russian executive and its congress (when it supported the russian executive against its elected but supposedly 'marxist' congress). today's russia, with all its ills, is the price of that stupiditiy of ideological prejudice.

not just that one turning point incident of course, but american lead policy all along.

Tiger's 1st Rule of NSG (America's always to blame! Everywhere! Anytime! For everything!) remains undefeated!

only as long as it chooses to be, by its foreign policy of ideological prejudice.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Tiger's 1st Rule of NSG (America's always to blame! Everywhere! Anytime! For everything!) remains undefeated!

only as long as it chooses to be, by its foreign policy of ideological prejudice.

Yeah, John Kerry should probably just tear up that sheet of paper in his office (the only sheet, actually) that just says "Ideological Prejudice" on it.
Supporting the Russian Congress back in the 90s wouldn't have had any practical effect on this at all - at least not in any way anybody could reasonably foresee.

[Aurora Novus]

Some ideas are, and some ideas aren't. Culture is about ideas that stay. There are also Government Ideas and Cultural Ideas. It's an extremely complex topic, especially when it comes to Russia.

So you admit that ideas can be a part of culture. At least we have a starting point.

I can raise my arm in the next ten seconds. Doesn't mean that I will. Government can influence culture, but that doesn't mean that it will.

Not what you said however. You said government does not influence culture.

However, this is all rather irrelevant, as my argument is that the Russian government is responding to a pre-existing culture of homophobia.

Really? Is that why the Proposition Process, a huge part of California's Culture, is constantly dissed by the Government?

You'll have to elaborate on what you're talking about, though it's a bit of a tangent really. This wouldn't negate what I've said in any way.

By extraordinarily homophobic, I was referring to groups that don't have a 50% approval rating. Hence the term I used was extraordinarily, which is a harsher term than just deeply homophobic.

So then you (1) admit that Russian society is deeply homophobic, as I've been saying all this time, and (2) that you are attempting to shift goal posts?

Further more, I'd say 44% of people thinking homosexual acts should be criminalized is evidence of a society that is "extraordinarily" homophobic.

Obviously neither is acceptable, but one should notice a difference between most people saying "we don't want Gays" and most people saying "isolate the Gays!" It's important to note these differences if one is to work to improve Gay Rights in Russia, isntead of just going "dat Russki Kultur, sho unshivilized!"

In other words, you're not going to deny that Russian culture is homophobic, and are instead resorting to attacking me for pointing that out. Righto.

I am very well aware, but you, very clearly, aren't:

Homosexuality has been documented in Russia for centuries. Government attempts at preventing homosexual practices began in the 18th century, with Tsar Peter the Great banning homosexual relations in the armed forces in 1716, as a part of his attempt to modernise the country. In 1832 further laws were enacted criminalising certain sexual acts between two males; however, an LGBT subculture developed in Russia during that century, with many significant Russians being openly homosexual or bisexual.

In 1917, the Russian Revolution saw the overthrow of the Tsarist government, and the subsequent foundation of the Russian SFSR, the world's first socialist state, followed by the founding of the Soviet Union after the end of the civil war in 1922. The new Communist Party government eradicated the old laws regarding sexual relations, effectively legalising homosexual activity within Russia, although it remained illegal in other former territories of the Russian Empire. Under Lenin's leadership, openly gay people were allowed to serve in government. In 1933, the Soviet government, under the leadership of Joseph Stalin, recriminalised homosexual activity...

Which literally does not negate anything I've said at all. You've just shown that (1) for centuries there have been anti-homosexual laws in place in Russia, and that (2) Russian gays were driven underground, and formed a "sub-culture". You've literally only supported my case. Thank you.

By shitstorians.

"Shitstorian"?

Ivan the Terrible went insane after the assassination of his wife, so that's not exactly a shining example.

That has nothing to do with what I said. I said, as far back as Ivan the Terrible, people were using accusations of homosexuality as a means of attacking and discrediting people. Someone attempted to do this towards Ivan himself. That is evidence that as far back as then, Russian culture was homophobic, and viewed homosexuality as shameful and worthy of criticism and attack.

And since Peter the Great criminalized it, and even then, only in the army, I'm going to go on a limb here, and say that *gasp* it must've been legal before it was criminalized!

Which doesn't mean homophobia wasn't a part of the culture prior, which I have provided evidence to suggest. Not to mention, Peter the Great was in power in the 18th Century. Pointing out homophibc laws as far back as three centuries ago doesn't really help your case that Russia doesn't have a long history of homophobia.

[Pacifornia]

Here's another one. One person using a study room in the college library when I have a three of my friends wanting to use it, annoying yes but it doesn't significantly affect me. Oh and morality is subjective and varies from person to person. Please dismount your horse.

[Shofercia]

only as long as it chooses to be, by its foreign policy of ideological prejudice.

Yeah, John Kerry should probably just tear up that sheet of paper in his office (the only sheet, actually) that just says "Ideological Prejudice" on it.
Supporting the Russian Congress back in the 90s wouldn't have had any practical effect on this at all - at least not in any way anybody could reasonably foresee.

Helping Yeltsin Election hurt the Western Image in Russia, and that's where the majority of the modern anti-Westernism stems from in Russia. Not seeing how this would directly apply to Gays, but indirectly, it cost America a ton of soft power in Russia, the remnants of which were wasted supported Saakashvili. Now there's no Soft Power to help LGBT in Russia by the US Government. But there's still things that Americans can do, like the Rainbow Olympics.

OTOH - you're right, it's hard to foresee this affecting Gay Rights in the 1990s.