The Tragedy of Influence, Oligarchs and The South Pacific

[C I Cerebella]

I'd imagine with the CTEs of older nations over a month that could well lead to drastic decline in the population of the region and a correspondent rise in the relative influence of the delegate.

[Darkesia]

With respect to Todd's post earlier. He is spot on.

As a member of TWP's Guardians, I can say that our attempt at solving this problem of influence is to sever ties between the off-site forum government and the in game Delegate. It works... sort of. What happened in our case is that we became acutely aware that once you have a "ruling class" that is completely secure and you have trust in that class that no "bad guy" will last more than a couple days, the off site government becomes an afterthought that itself is unnecessary. If the people have no reason to organize, they won't.

Our RMB became very active and a good place to be. We even chose (yes,lets be honest. It's an oligarchy) a delegate who spent most of his time on the RMB and rarely visited the off-site. It is a rare creature indeed who likes to write legislation with no in-game pay off. I can count the players like that on one hand. And secretly I bet they wish they had some recognition. Our forum died.

Now, TWP has two things that make the death by inactivity of the forum a sad and unacceptable thing: A prominent member of our community is banned from the game. And we have Winni. How could we not have the most rockin' forum in NS?

In order to revive the forum several tactics were taken, a couple of them are still in play and may even work. But the goal has always been to light a fire under new players. To get them to build their government. This goal seems unattainable at this point. Its popular among the high influence players to grumble that "this generation" of players doesn't know how to lead or organize. But I believe we all know there will never be new leadership and structure in the feeders until there is a need for such a thing. Under this system of influence, that will not happen. Those soft resets that Todd spoke of are more important than one outside of a feeder can imagine.

TWP's forum is revived and there is a new structure forming. But it is all being done within the current in-game framework of the Guardians always being there to protect the region. We have a few new participants, but not as many as we need. The leadership is still trickling down from the Guardians.

I am in TSP endorsing Milo. (even though he is a stinky ole roleplayer )

[South Pacific Belschaft]

Except, Darkesia, that Milograd has ejected TSP's active on site community. First the RMB regulars, the heart and soul of TSP, realized what happened and stopped endorsing him on their own initiative. So they had to go, and they did in the first wave of purges.

Next the less active nations, who pay attention and care but don't post a lot started coming on in ones or two's, and either saw what was happening - people they knew and talked to being ejected - or got a TG, and they stopped endorsing Milograd. Well, they had to go too. And so began the second wave of purges.

Third were the issue answers who've made TSP their home. They don't post on the RMB much if at all. They took longer to notice, but notice they did. So they to went away to Kandyland.

TSP had a native community, like you talked about. We had a bunch of great people who talked on the RMB and by TG, who didn't take a huge amount of interest in the government itself but were part of TSP. Our RMB was active and fun. Now they are mainly in TRR. Milograd has ejected roughly one hundred native WA's so far; these were people who have been in TSP, for some cases for months or years, and have done nothing to ever harm her. I see names among the ones he banned that I first talked to as delegate in 2011, people who voted for me as delegate - hell, people who voted for him as delegate in the past. Their crime was unendorsing him. The remaining on site activity is a mixture of nations who have come in to support him - roughly thirty foreign WA's by my count - and those of us he cannot afford to ban.

[Cerian Quilor]

Milograd betrayed his government and his laws, and what he's done is doing nothing to solve any mythical 'influence' problem. It would take years for him to have the influence to ban B&N, probably, for example.

[Darkesia]

My point, Bel, is: if you want it. Take it. It might not happen immediately, but if the community members you spoke of, are interested enough, they will organize, form alliances, create structure and take their home back.

I do not know how your forum is administered. But if you have a neutral root admin, you don't even have to use a new forum, you can do it right there from home.

What seems to have vanished from this sort of thing is the community building, strategy and inter-regional political intrigue. It's made us all lazy. High influence nations can remain in control without having to do a damned thing. And for many of us, we don't have the time to invest in structure building and politics like we used to have. If you and your compatriots have that time, and desire, put the work in. Organize, gather allies and take it back. It will be a very satisfying thing and something a new generation of players can share.

I dare you. Take it back and send me to Kandyand.

[Cerian Quilor]

Its not possible, Dark. He's banning everyone that he /can/ ban that is endorsing B&N.

Its not about politics, its about math.

[Darkesia]

It is possible. Strategy.
(Stop throwing yourselves on the pike line. This strategy is failing)

I refuse to tell you how to do it. But it can be done.

[The Revolution of Milograd]

Comrades Of The Revolution! Proletariats! Support And Follow Milograd In The March To Freedom! The Chains Of Oppression Shall Be Unshackled! The Proletariat Shall Become Equal To The Oligarch! Endorse Milograd For The Continuity Of The Glorious Transition To Harmony! Long Live Milograd, Long Live The Revolution, Long Live The South Pacific!

[The Ascendancy]

Doesn't this mean that your class analysis can apply to any region? I'm sure the class structure is a tad different if a founder is there, but it can also behave in a similar fashion, yes?

[Punk Daddy]

Darkesia falls for the - pun intended - daaaarrkk side of the force. As does TAO.

Come on TSP'ers...you've been couped before. The propaganda campaign doesn't seem to be as effective against Milo as it was against Devonitians thus far though. That is unless Milo is being propped up better by outside forces that Dev.

And are your only high influence people B&N and Fudge? I should hope not. I know Fudge is at the highest levels of influence, but from her comments it seems like she was willing to let the best nation win. I'm completely in shock by that statement, but there I read it. I wonder if she gave her nation to someone. Normally, when she sees me posting on TSP it's like insta-burn.

Anyway...

As a guardian of TWP, I support the position of AGP in his statement. TAO and Dark - also leaders of TWP - are supporting Milo for reasons they've expressed. I am personally supporting the regime that elected Milo because I feel that that group was active, trusted Milo, and have been betrayed by his coup. TSP was not a dead region onsite or off and I think its responsible to support such situations. I believe Milo is close to being recalled and treason proceedings have commenced.

But, having been through this on both sides of the aisle you remove Milo through an effective unendo campaign, outside forces, B&N endoing his but off and, at times, causing the rogue delegate to lose heart and give up. Seems like TSP folks are focusing on the latter, but imho they should be focusing on getting his endos down because he's remained at a steady level since i last looked yesterday. Think he's only down 2 endos.

[All Good People]

It is possible. Strategy.
(Stop throwing yourselves on the pike line. This strategy is failing)

I refuse to tell you how to do it. But it can be done.

Dark is correct, yes it can be done. Some players have proved it repeatedly but few seem to learn the lesson.

It's a game, so start playing it. It's up to the players to figure out their strategy and tactics, and that takes creativity and inventiveness. That's what seems lacking in NS. Don't blame Influence, figure out how to work it.

[South Pacific Belschaft]

Some statistics;

There were 532 WA nations in TSP last friday.
There are 521 now, of which 69 weren't in the WA last friday.
80 WAs from Friday are now gone.
Of the 69 new WAs, they can be split into 13 who were in TSP and joined the WA and 56 who were not in TSP last Friday.
Of the 13 who were, 2 are endorsing Milograd and the rest are not.
Of the 56 who were not, 48 are endorsing milograd and the rest are not.
Milograd is being supported by 48 foreign WA's who have entered TSP since his coup.

Sources:
Eluvatar's saved nations.xml dump from Friday, the current API results for nations in TSP, nations in the WA, and nations endorsing Milograd

note: the sha1sum of the nations.xml saved from friday is a3975f9d6feb92594e3c83fb1a9dd552901f0d53

[The Revolution of Milograd]

People Of The Revolution, Heed The Calling Of Chairman Milograd! The Revolution Is As Strong As Ever, But There Are Still Others That Wish Against The Ideals Of Chairman Milograd And The Idea Of An Equal, Free South Pacific! We Must Purge These Oligarchs, And Ensure The Continuity Of The Revolution! Take Up Arms Against The Oligarch, For The Proletariat! People Of The South Pacific, Endorse Your World Assembly Delegate, Chairman Milograd, And Live In A Truly Free And Prosperous South Pacific! Unshackle The Chains Of Oppression! Endorse Milograd For A Prosperous South Pacific! Our March To Freedom Is Irreversible! The Revolution Has The Everlasting Support Of The People! Revolutionaries! Bring Up Arms Against Those Who Wish Against The Glorious Transition! Long Live Chairman Milograd, Long Live The Revolution, Long Live The South Pacific!

[Punk Daddy]

Some statistics;

There were 532 WA nations in TSP last friday.
There are 521 now, of which 69 weren't in the WA last friday.
80 WAs from Friday are now gone.
Of the 69 new WAs, they can be split into 13 who were in TSP and joined the WA and 56 who were not in TSP last Friday.
Of the 13 who were, 2 are endorsing Milograd and the rest are not.
Of the 56 who were not, 48 are endorsing milograd and the rest are not.
Milograd is being supported by 48 foreign WA's who have entered TSP since his coup.

Sources:
Eluvatar's saved nations.xml dump from Friday, the current API results for nations in TSP, nations in the WA, and nations endorsing Milograd

note: the sha1sum of the nations.xml saved from friday is a3975f9d6feb92594e3c83fb1a9dd552901f0d53

So does this mean that TSP's government is only being helped by 8...count 'em 8 foreign supporters to help them overthrow Milo? That's not going to get it done.

[Luxembourg]

Some statistics;

There were 532 WA nations in TSP last friday.
There are 521 now, of which 69 weren't in the WA last friday.
80 WAs from Friday are now gone.
Of the 69 new WAs, they can be split into 13 who were in TSP and joined the WA and 56 who were not in TSP last Friday.
Of the 13 who were, 2 are endorsing Milograd and the rest are not.
Of the 56 who were not, 48 are endorsing milograd and the rest are not.
Milograd is being supported by 48 foreign WA's who have entered TSP since his coup.

Sources:
Eluvatar's saved nations.xml dump from Friday, the current API results for nations in TSP, nations in the WA, and nations endorsing Milograd

note: the sha1sum of the nations.xml saved from friday is a3975f9d6feb92594e3c83fb1a9dd552901f0d53

So does this mean that TSP's government is only being helped by 8...count 'em 8 foreign supporters to help them overthrow Milo? That's not going to get it done.

I'm helping >_> granted he's banned quite a large amount of my puppets, but hey if it makes the ban list larger than he can only ban so many more nations.

[Finsbury Park]

I fully support comrade milograd and his endorsers in their struggle. It is gratifying to see a regime brought low, I hope to see more of this in the other non-player created regions. This is a revolution for freedom.

Rise up!

[Kringalia]

Milograd committed treason the moment he thought it right to dispose of the elected government and rule on his own. There is a reason why we have proper channels to voice discontent. Sure, he won't suppress posts in the RMB, what no one says is that instead of suppressing the posts he ejects and bans the posters. I don't see how any reasonable nation can support such a violent alteration of constitutional order without previous and fair consultation to the People of The South Pacific. We were even having a Great Council, he could have easily voiced his supposed concerns there, but obviously his intent was not to fight for nations with less influence, but rather to take absolute power for himself. Otherwise, why would he eject whatever nation had endorsed Brutland and Norden when he had gained enough endorsement to reclaim the Delegacy from him? I was banned from TSP a few hours ago for a single reason, and that is that I fought against those that supported this coup. I encourage all nations to fight as well.

[Friendship is magic]

Some statistics;

There were 532 WA nations in TSP last friday.
There are 521 now, of which 69 weren't in the WA last friday.
80 WAs from Friday are now gone.
Of the 69 new WAs, they can be split into 13 who were in TSP and joined the WA and 56 who were not in TSP last Friday.
Of the 13 who were, 2 are endorsing Milograd and the rest are not.
Of the 56 who were not, 48 are endorsing milograd and the rest are not.
Milograd is being supported by 48 foreign WA's who have entered TSP since his coup.

Sources:
Eluvatar's saved nations.xml dump from Friday, the current API results for nations in TSP, nations in the WA, and nations endorsing Milograd

note: the sha1sum of the nations.xml saved from friday is a3975f9d6feb92594e3c83fb1a9dd552901f0d53

Numbers ^_^

You seem to be forgetting that the region you're talking about is a game created region where new nations are spawned. It doesn't take a genius to simply create a few nations and wait until they are spawned directly into TSP, and then join the WA, for either side, supporting or not.

Really, it's not that difficult. Anyone with a minimum of experience in raiding will know how to gain this extra stealth.

Your statistics don't represent the reality.

[Sovreignry]

Some statistics;

There were 532 WA nations in TSP last friday.
There are 521 now, of which 69 weren't in the WA last friday.
80 WAs from Friday are now gone.
Of the 69 new WAs, they can be split into 13 who were in TSP and joined the WA and 56 who were not in TSP last Friday.
Of the 13 who were, 2 are endorsing Milograd and the rest are not.
Of the 56 who were not, 48 are endorsing milograd and the rest are not.
Milograd is being supported by 48 foreign WA's who have entered TSP since his coup.

Sources:
Eluvatar's saved nations.xml dump from Friday, the current API results for nations in TSP, nations in the WA, and nations endorsing Milograd

note: the sha1sum of the nations.xml saved from friday is a3975f9d6feb92594e3c83fb1a9dd552901f0d53

Numbers ^_^

You seem to be forgetting that the region you're talking about is a game created region where new nations are spawned. It doesn't take a genius to simply create a few nations and wait until they are spawned directly into TSP, and then join the WA, for either side, supporting or not.

Really, it's not that difficult. Anyone with a minimum of experience in raiding will know how to gain this extra stealth.

Your statistics don't represent the reality.

People can only have one WA at a time.

[Todd McCloud]

One thing's for certain: I'm going to be watching this very closely to see if this follows trends outlined in an essay I wrote, The Necessity of Chaos. If this remains true and TSP does re-gain its footing, TSP is in for a boom period, relatively speaking.

[Ofly]

One thing's for certain: I'm going to be watching this very closely to see if this follows trends outlined in an essay I wrote, The Necessity of Chaos. If this remains true and TSP does re-gain its footing, TSP is in for a boom period, relatively speaking.

TSP is already in the midst of a boom period, for the once despondent masses have risen up! They rejoice that Milograd has come to save them!

[Lowell Leber]

Some statistics;

There were 532 WA nations in TSP last friday.
There are 521 now, of which 69 weren't in the WA last friday.
80 WAs from Friday are now gone.
Of the 69 new WAs, they can be split into 13 who were in TSP and joined the WA and 56 who were not in TSP last Friday.
Of the 13 who were, 2 are endorsing Milograd and the rest are not.
Of the 56 who were not, 48 are endorsing milograd and the rest are not.
Milograd is being supported by 48 foreign WA's who have entered TSP since his coup.

Sources:
Eluvatar's saved nations.xml dump from Friday, the current API results for nations in TSP, nations in the WA, and nations endorsing Milograd

note: the sha1sum of the nations.xml saved from friday is a3975f9d6feb92594e3c83fb1a9dd552901f0d53

So does this mean that TSP's government is only being helped by 8...count 'em 8 foreign supporters to help them overthrow Milo? That's not going to get it done.

There are more of us than you think trying to help Punk Daddy. Its just Milo was spot on at the last 2 updates in banjecting us. We are still trying though...

[Kanab (Ancient)]

So does this mean that TSP's government is only being helped by 8...count 'em 8 foreign supporters to help them overthrow Milo? That's not going to get it done.

There are more of us than you think trying to help Punk Daddy. Its just Milo was spot on at the last 2 updates in banjecting us. We are still trying though...

Any attempt to invade the region using updaters will be futile. If you field 100, they will all be banned; the numbers are inconsequential. You will lose.

[Lint Roller]

The depths these foreign imperialists are willing to sink are deplorable. I wouldn't give my commitment to the revolution for 1,000 Postmaster General accounts! I do not resort to copypasta, nor will I ever. These tactics are indicative of a desperate enemy. Our enemies claim our civil rights have been violated, but I see freedom of speech all over the RMB, even those who abuse that right to free speech so dear to our comrade-Vanguard Milograd. His enlightened leadership shall guide us all to a better TSP.

[Cromarty]

Actually no it won't.

Milograd knows all too well that he can't win.