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[Essay] The Modern NatSov? Life After National Sovereignty

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[Essay] The Modern NatSov? Life After National Sovereignty

Postby Sciongrad » Fri May 13, 2016 9:38 pm

The Modern NatSov? Life After National Sovereignty

Approximately a year and a half ago, The Dourian Embassy boldly proclaimed the existence of “the Modern NatSov” - a new, flexible stage in the evolution of National Sovereignty that is not fundamentally opposed to the World Assembly. The essay concludes that this new iteration of National Sovereignty demands that its adherents “engage with our opposition until it's no longer reasonable to do so.” However, several conditions - principally, the desertion of the fundamental motivation underlying National Sovereignty as a distinct argument in its favor and the rise of internal inconsistency on issues of policy - have caused the intellectual basis for the movement to collapse. The premise of this essay is that we are currently interacting in a post-NatSov world where the ontological assumption is that power derives from the World Assembly and that member nations must choose which issues they believe do not fall under the scope of its authority. Consequently, member nations choose, based solely on policy preference, not on basic ideological conceptions of sovereignty, which issues should be covered by the World Assembly. This essay is not a condemnation of National Sovereignty, nor does it seek to deny the existence of individual players who still adhere to the national sovereignty of yore - it is an observation on the current environment.

The conception of National Sovereignty presented in Douria’s piece is imaginary - to the contrary, National Sovereignty has been intellectually defunct for several years. There are two reasons for the total intellectual collapse of National Sovereignty. Firstly, the most fundamental idea at the core of the NatSov movement - that, ontologically, power derives from member states and that they are free to cede or reclaim their sovereignty by their own volition - has been totally abandoned. Instead, self proclaimed NatSovs have resorted to pedantry and misrepresentation to advance an agenda whose true ideological motivations are avoided meticulously and deliberately. Repeals like the repeal of GAR#99 were clearly motivated by a desire to return sovereignty to member nations, yet the arguments presented complain about whether or not the resolution established a committee or simply a building, because the inclusion of the word “courthouse” in the committee's title somehow precludes it from executing bureaucratic functions or how the resolution included a “separate but equal” form of justice for criminals that committed crimes in multiple jurisdictions - a meaningless distinction in the context of GAR#99 but one that shamelessly evokes imagery of Jim Crow. The argument that such authority simply does not fall within the scope of appropriate World Assembly legislation is, shockingly, absent. This, by itself, does not suggest that National Sovereignty as an idea does not exist - of course it does if authors are pursuing it (albeit, while hiding their true motivation). What it suggests is that the movement has chosen to abandon its intellectual basis. By refusing to countenance the ideological motivation for National Sovereignty as a discrete argument in support of the movement, modern National Sovereignists have, whether deliberately or otherwise, eliminated an intellectual basis for the movement. If not even NatSovs can stomach the argument that National Sovereignty is, in and of itself, an appropriate reason to repeal legislation, no one can be expected to. This is largely responsible for making national sovereigntism seem like it's intellectually illegitimate - because its most vocal proponents see it as an end to be achieved only and refuse to make it a cohesive argument in its own right.

There is another dimension to the intellectual failure of modern National Sovereignty: internal consistency. Models of modern National Sovereignty have promulgated the idea that the World Assembly lacks the authority to act on specific domestic issues, yet simultaneously support legislation like GAR#286 which permits the termination of pregnancy well into the third trimester. Supporting international legislation on abortion is, by no means, inherently bad. However, support for radical intervention on particular “pet issues” cannot be reconciled with the general and fundamental ideas of National Sovereignty.

The consequence of the intellectual collapse of National Sovereignty is that the lens through which the new generation of players fundamentally view the scope of the World Assembly has changed. Even self-proclaimed NatSovs operate under the assumption that the World Assembly theoretically has infinite power and that member nations must choose which issues don’t fall under the scope of World Assembly authority. This accounts for otherwise irreconcilable statements regarding the authority of the World Assembly. Indeed, it is not uncommon to find authors simultaneously peddling some pet issue while denouncing other, equally intrusive (or nonintrusive) projects as “not an international issue.” The “NatSov refrain” - that an issue is not an international one - has lost entirely its intellectual meaning. Decoded, it now means something along the lines of “my particular government doesn’t want the World Assembly to act on this issue,” but noticeably it lacks a consistent conception of National Sovereignty as its intellectual basis.

Is this new intellectual environment that bad? Not necessarily. However, it is disingenuous. Member nations coopt the language of a largely defunct ideology to code their own intentions for voting one way or another - perhaps not even consciously. National Sovereignty as a distinct, consistent ideological basis for repeal or opposition to a resolution no longer exists. Instead, self-proclaimed NatSovs will decry the merits of consumer protection laws, but embrace unrestricted access to abortion or support an international arms trading regime but viciously oppose basic legal rights. Modern day National Sovereignty is a meaningless idea that means whatever its supporters want it to mean. If we have any hope of debating honestly with each other, modern NatSovs must either return the ideology to its few remaining true proponents or embrace its fundamental principles and apply them consistently.

tl;dr: NatSovs don't exist anymore. Players simply coopt the movement's language selectively according to their own policy preferences.

[/Self indulgent navel-gazing]

Disclaimer: I acknowledge that there are NatSovs today that defy this trend. This isn't meant to include all NatSovs. It's merely an observation on what has become of the mainstream movement today.
Last edited by Sciongrad on Sat May 14, 2016 9:32 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Postby Araraukar » Fri May 13, 2016 10:16 pm

OOC (not sure if this is OOC or not): Wouldn't this have worked best in IA's WA newspaper thingy?

National Sovereignty as a distinct, consistent ideological basis for repeal or opposition to a resolution no longer exists.

This stuck out from that flow of thoughts. "NatSov is not enough for a repeal" has been repeated ad infinitum, despite it being "NatSov alone is not enough for a repeal", so I think sheer pressure has made those that claim NatSov ideals find another way instead, which has been attacking bits and pieces with claims bordering on blatant lies. The new Honest Mistake rule has blocked some of that - we don't yet know how arduously it will be defended by the mods, despite one encouraging precedent - but the pressure still exists, so we'll see.

I'm in a funny in-between position myself. I don't know if I ever was a "true NatSov-er" (I'm reminded of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy here, btw), but I do view maybe a third of the existing resolutions as ones that shouldn't be repealed (unless the whole of WA was restarted, but that's another kettle-o-fish altogether), a third that I'm ambivalent about or don't care about much (especially if they don't touch the IC reality of PPU) and the rest can be blown away by the wind for all I care.

Douria seems to have made a come-back, maybe you can get his opinion on this. I'm just rambling now, and am going to take that as an excuse to head off now... *wanders offline*
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Postby Sciongrad » Fri May 13, 2016 10:24 pm

Araraukar wrote:OOC (not sure if this is OOC or not): Wouldn't this have worked best in IA's WA newspaper thingy?

I've contacted him about it, actually! I wasn't sure if his thread was meant for discussions though, which is what I intended for this essay to produce.

This stuck out from that flow of thoughts. "NatSov is not enough for a repeal" has been repeated ad infinitum, despite it being "NatSov alone is not enough for a repeal", so I think sheer pressure has made those that claim NatSov ideals find another way instead, which has been attacking bits and pieces with claims bordering on blatant lies. The new Honest Mistake rule has blocked some of that - we don't yet know how arduously it will be defended by the mods, despite one encouraging precedent - but the pressure still exists, so we'll see.

Often times, it was the "NatSovs" this essay identifies that aggressively peddled the "no NatSov arguments ever" trope. I think this created a positive feedback loop and our current situation is the result.

I'm in a funny in-between position myself. I don't know if I ever was a "true NatSov-er" (I'm reminded of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy here, btw), but I do view maybe a third of the existing resolutions as ones that shouldn't be repealed (unless the whole of WA was restarted, but that's another kettle-o-fish altogether), a third that I'm ambivalent about or don't care about much (especially if they don't touch the IC reality of PPU) and the rest can be blown away by the wind for all I care.

On previous accounts, I've been considerably more IntFed. I roleplay Sciongrad as moderate with an IntFed lean. Yet when I first started playing, I acknowledged distinct ideological blocs with fairly consistent arguments. I don't see that anymore.

Douria seems to have made a come-back, maybe you can get his opinion on this. I'm just rambling now, and am going to take that as an excuse to head off now... *wanders offline*

Douria was one of the worst offenders! This essay is in response to his essay.
Last edited by Sciongrad on Fri May 13, 2016 10:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri May 13, 2016 10:41 pm

Sciongrad wrote:
Araraukar wrote:OOC (not sure if this is OOC or not): Wouldn't this have worked best in IA's WA newspaper thingy?

I've contacted him about it, actually! I wasn't sure if his thread was meant for discussions though, which is what I intended for this essay to produce.

And seeing how well the past threads have worked, this has changed my view on the topic immensely. More index and 'anonymous submission' than beacon of light.

Sciongrad wrote:
This stuck out from that flow of thoughts. "NatSov is not enough for a repeal" has been repeated ad infinitum, despite it being "NatSov alone is not enough for a repeal", so I think sheer pressure has made those that claim NatSov ideals find another way instead, which has been attacking bits and pieces with claims bordering on blatant lies. The new Honest Mistake rule has blocked some of that - we don't yet know how arduously it will be defended by the mods, despite one encouraging precedent - but the pressure still exists, so we'll see.

Often times, it was the "NatSovs" this essay identifies that aggressively peddled the "no NatSov arguments ever" trope. I think this created a positive feedback loop and our current situation is the result.

It seems to me that you're railing against inconsistency rather than anything else.

Sciongrad wrote:
I'm in a funny in-between position myself. I don't know if I ever was a "true NatSov-er" (I'm reminded of the "no true Scotsman" fallacy here, btw), but I do view maybe a third of the existing resolutions as ones that shouldn't be repealed (unless the whole of WA was restarted, but that's another kettle-o-fish altogether), a third that I'm ambivalent about or don't care about much (especially if they don't touch the IC reality of PPU) and the rest can be blown away by the wind for all I care.

On previous accounts, I've been considerably more IntFed. I roleplay Sciongrad as moderate with an IntFed lean. Yet when I first started playing, I acknowledged distinct ideological blocs with fairly consistent arguments. I don't see that anymore.

I noticed something of the like recently, when I was trying to square my support for free trade resolutions with opposition for most everything else. I think my first post in the WALR thread still is the central basis for how I look at legislation, however, that act of looking is coloured by other factors.

Sciongrad wrote:
Douria seems to have made a come-back, maybe you can get his opinion on this. I'm just rambling now, and am going to take that as an excuse to head off now... *wanders offline*

Douria was one of the worst offenders! This essay is in response to his essay.

Link please?

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Postby Sciongrad » Fri May 13, 2016 10:49 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:It seems to me that you're railing against inconsistency rather than anything else.

Inconsistency is certain a factor, but it is not the only issue. Even if modern NatSovs were consistent in their application of their ideology, they still avoid it like the plague. That is equally detrimental to the intellectual credibility of National Sovereignty.

Link please?

Sure thing.
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri May 13, 2016 11:04 pm

Sciongrad wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:It seems to me that you're railing against inconsistency rather than anything else.

Inconsistency is certain a factor, but it is not the only issue. Even if modern NatSovs were consistent in their application of their ideology, they still avoid it like the plague. That is equally detrimental to the intellectual credibility of National Sovereignty.

Link please?

Sure thing.

Hmm. After reading Douria/Mousebumples' essay, I feel that this is critiquing really the inconsistencies that arise. I feel that the main message of Douria's paper is 'the WA shouldn't do it the dumb way'. Naturally, what happens when you apply that rule is that people catch on to their pet issues and generally don't really care about things they don't know about. And when people don't really care, they will default to 'let the nations do it'. It's emergent from the different facets of people's educations and how people know different things on different topics.

An example here is myself and UFoC's huge disagreements on nuclear policy. I come at it from an international affairs and sociology perspective. Nuclear weapons won't be used, ever, because nobody wants to kill themselves. Irrational actors do not exist, and those which people claim are irrational are clearly rational (NK which trades aid for their programme, Iran which just crumbled under a sanctions regime...). On the other hand, I felt that UFoC approached it from a law enforcement perspective, saying that giving criminals guns (here, nukes) is a bad thing. I believe in equilibrium. He doesn't believe that's possible. However, both views exist in a NatSov context. That's just due to differing views on people's viewpoints.

The next element is political incentive. People want to pass resolutions. I think the best way to examine how people do so is how politics works. In the end, politics is about consensus-building. It is about getting enough people to agree on a certain topic. The most effective way of doing so in a repeal is to take one of two approaches: (1) the target does too much or (2) the target does too little. I generally actually believe (1), but when it comes to things which are prima facie good, (2) is a much more compelling argument for most people. If you want your resolution to be passed, you should be arguing (2) even if you actually believe (1).

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Postby Sciongrad » Fri May 13, 2016 11:49 pm

Imperium Anglorum wrote:Hmm. After reading Douria/Mousebumples' essay, I feel that this is critiquing really the inconsistencies that arise. I feel that the main message of Douria's paper is 'the WA shouldn't do it the dumb way'. Naturally, what happens when you apply that rule is that people catch on to their pet issues and generally don't really care about things they don't know about. And when people don't really care, they will default to 'let the nations do it'. It's emergent from the different facets of people's educations and how people know different things on different topics.

An example here is myself and UFoC's huge disagreements on nuclear policy. I come at it from an international affairs and sociology perspective. Nuclear weapons won't be used, ever, because nobody wants to kill themselves. Irrational actors do not exist, and those which people claim are irrational are clearly rational (NK which trades aid for their programme, Iran which just crumbled under a sanctions regime...). On the other hand, I felt that UFoC approached it from a law enforcement perspective, saying that giving criminals guns (here, nukes) is a bad thing. I believe in equilibrium. He doesn't believe that's possible. However, both views exist in a NatSov context. That's just due to differing views on people's viewpoints.

I agree generally that a player's life experiences will color how they interact in the game and how they view certain issues. And I acknowledge how opposing views on an issue can both exist, simultaneously, in a NatSov framework. My issue is not so much with inconsistency among NatSovs - NatSovs have disagreed on policy specifics forever and I've never claimed they're a monolith - but with internal inconsistency. I'll use Mousebumples' defense of GAR#286 as an example. She claimed that she is NatSov regarding some issues and IntFed regarding others. That is intellectually dissonant. And this is by no means limited to Mouse. Many players drop any pretense of National Sovereignty when debating issues they feel passionately about. That's fine, but it's also not NatSov.

However, I believe there is more to my argument than inconsistency. Perhaps the greater problem is the desertion of National Sovereignty as a cohesive argument in its own right. I referenced the repeal of GAR#99 in my essay. The repeal and its supporters believed, at a fundamental level, that multilateral prosecution fell outside the scope of appropriate World Assembly authority - a totally respectable argument. However, the repeal argued, at some stage in its drafting or another, that: the initial resolution established a building, not a committee; that the original resolution established a Jim Crow-esque system of "separate but equal"; that the concept of jurisdiction does not exist in the NS universe because no resolution created it; that the resolution's expectation of an extradition treaty was unnecessary despite the fact that such a requirement was already established in a different resolution. Dissembling is equally responsible for the collapse of modern day National Sovereignty's intellectual legitimacy.
Last edited by Sciongrad on Sat May 14, 2016 12:04 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Araraukar » Sat May 14, 2016 5:29 am

I'm assuming this thread is OOC, since you guys are talking about players, not ambassadors.

Imperium Anglorum wrote:It's emergent from the different facets of people's educations and how people know different things on different topics.

Just adding to this "and how broadly people have learned English when it's not their first language".

Drop on me a text book on biology, biochem, chemistry, even physics, and I can understand pretty much everything (except some of the physics calculations, but I secretly doubt even the physicists do, they just fake it :P) and explain it in simpler language. That's what I'm good at. But do the same with a law book, and I'll be reading it with a thesaurus, the Wiktionary, English-to-Finnish dictionary and a Finnish thesaurus1. Most of my legal knowledge comes from watching Law & Order (and Matlock way back when). :lol2:

1 This is also why I object to Legalese in proposal texts - I figure that I can't be the only one for whom it's basically gibberish. :P

Sciongrad wrote:["no true Scotsman" by any other words]

It's very unfair to claim that NatSov only works in the way you (or Douria, or Mouse, or whoever) perceive it, and that "no-one is true NatSov". Plenty of people who post here for the first time, are pure NatSov, against everything the WA does or tries to do. But they're usually laughed out of the forum (which I try to avoid doing but can't claim to be innocent of in good conscience) before too long. Why? Because this is the place for constructive and collective law-making, not people just saying "I don't like it, it intrudes on my national sovereignty".

Yes, you'll claim "but that's not what I meant with intellectual NatSov". "No true Scotsman" in other words. This doesn't mean I was trying to claim that's what you actually meant when you said what you said, but that's how it reads to me.
Last edited by Araraukar on Sat May 14, 2016 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sat May 14, 2016 6:42 am

Araraukar wrote:
Sciongrad wrote:["no true Scotsman" by any other words]

It's very unfair to claim that NatSov only works in the way you (or Douria, or Mouse, or whoever) perceive it, and that "no-one is true NatSov". Plenty of people who post here for the first time, are pure NatSov, against everything the WA does or tries to do. But they're usually laughed out of the forum (which I try to avoid doing but can't claim to be innocent of in good conscience) before too long. Why? Because this is the place for constructive and collective law-making, not people just saying "I don't like it, it intrudes on my national sovereignty".

Yes, you'll claim "but that's not what I meant with intellectual NatSov". "No true Scotsman" in other words. This doesn't mean I was trying to claim that's what you actually meant when you said what you said, but that's how it reads to me.

I think something along that line is about Douria's modern NatSov, which I interpreted as basically, 'do legislation with care' and the belief that most of the time, subsidiarity applies. I found for myself quite a similar politic in my own essay on the purpose of the World Assembly. I am, however, unclear on what the IntFed response on that subject would be.

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Postby Araraukar » Sat May 14, 2016 6:51 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:I am, however, unclear on what the IntFed response on that subject would be.

So perhaps it's not just "no pure NatSov bloc anymore" but rather "no pure NatSov or IntFed blocs anymore"?

It's now more "military bloc" and "pacifist bloc" and "human rights bloc" and ""who gives a damn, just helping to make it legal" bloc". (I'm sure you can guess which ones I subscribe to. :P)
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Postby Bears Armed » Sat May 14, 2016 8:11 am

Sciongrad wrote:[align=center]Approximately a year and a half ago, The Dourian Embassy boldly proclaimed the existence of “the Modern NatSov” - a new, flexible stage in the evolution of National Sovereignty that is not fundamentally opposed to the World Assembly.

The latter might be Douria's definition of what 'NatSov' used to mean, but there have been a LOT of nations claiming to be NatSov that were not "fundamentally opposed to the World Assembly" (or to the UN...), too: Most actual members of the former National Sovereignty Organisation, who between them were responsible for quite a few 'substantive' resolutions, for example. The "fundamentally opposed" ones were just the so-called' strong NatSovs', such as the leaders of Gatesville. However what we more frequently saw expressed in these forums (at least if one excludes"drive-by" posts by people opposing specific proposals who were never heard from again...) was the 'moderate NatSov' viewpoint: The UN/WA has a legitimate role to play in legislating on matters that actually involve interactions between nations, or where a national government's actions would have direct effects on other nations (e.g. diplomacy, war, international trade, the international environment) -- and maybeso in legislating on the most fundamental rights, although there was less of a consensus among NatSovs on what that covered -- but should otherwise stay out of matters where national governments' actions generally wouldn't have "external" effects.
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Postby Araraukar » Sat May 14, 2016 8:31 am

Bears Armed wrote:the 'moderate NatSov' viewpoint: The UN/WA has a legitimate role to play in legislating on matters that actually involve interactions between nations, or where a national government's actions would have direct effects on other nations (e.g. diplomacy, war, international trade, the international environment) -- and maybeso in legislating on the most fundamental rights, although there was less of a consensus among NatSovs on what that covered -- but should otherwise stay out of matters where national governments' actions generally wouldn't have "external" effects.

^This pretty much describes me in IC. Well, on Araraukar anyway. PPU is harder to pinpoint (if for no other reason than it originally got WA member status to avoid Janis torching it :P), but that's more due to how many of the resolutions simply don't apply to a hivemind, not because it was ICly for or against the WA as a concept... This is why I do the majority of my debating with Janis, as Araraukar.
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Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Sat May 14, 2016 8:52 am

When I first started paying attention to the GA forum (as opposed to being one of the lemmings, which I'd done for years), there was a clear bloc claiming that, more or less, something was not an international issue until it could be proven as one. That basic stance seemed to wither away not long after I started posting regularly. I've honestly never seen much utility in the NatSov/IntFed dichotomy - it seems to me RL nations are more than perfectly willing to be inconsistent as f--- when it comes to advancing their own agendas as principle-driven and philosophically motivated, yet dismiss other nations' agendas and arguments no matter how well they use the very same principles (think of the United States pointing out serious human rights violations all over the world, but sticking its fingers in its ears and going "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" when someone points out how abominably USA-friendly banana republics - or sometimes the US itself - behave).

I try to play in that context, then - I'm more than willing to impose the WA on countries that don't want their citizens to have bodily sovereignty, then turn right around and say no, sorry, the World Assembly shouldn't have control of member nations' military establishments because that's none of anyone else's damn business.

Real nations try to impose friendly policies on other nations, while resisting still other nations' attempts to do the same to them. That doesn't need much gameside intellectual justification because that work's already been done by the likes of Hobbes and Macchiavelli.
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sat May 14, 2016 9:05 am

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:there was a clear bloc claiming that, more or less, something was not an international issue until it could be proven as one.

Hmm. I do this now.

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Postby Sciongrad » Sat May 14, 2016 9:15 am

Araraukar wrote:
Imperium Anglorum wrote:I am, however, unclear on what the IntFed response on that subject would be.

So perhaps it's not just "no pure NatSov bloc anymore" but rather "no pure NatSov or IntFed blocs anymore"?

It's now more "military bloc" and "pacifist bloc" and "human rights bloc" and ""who gives a damn, just helping to make it legal" bloc". (I'm sure you can guess which ones I subscribe to. :P)

I believe this to an extent. The whole IntFed/NatSov dichotomy has sort of collapsed. All players are, for the most part, operating under the assumption that the World Assembly has infinite power and that they must identify which areas are inappropriate for World Assembly action. This is distinct from the past where NatSovs believed that players needed to justify why ceding sovereignty over a certain issue to the World Assembly was appropriate.

I also don't believe I'm making a No True Scotsman argument. I believe modern NatSovs have abandoned the movement's most fundamental principles. If socialists, as a group, simply stopped defending the notion that the means of production should be owned by the state and started to adopt positions that were contrary to socialism, like private enterprise, I wouldn't be making a No True Scotsman argument for pointing out that they're no longer socialists.

Bears Armed wrote:The latter might be Douria's definition of what 'NatSov' used to mean, but there have been a LOT of nations claiming to be NatSov that were not "fundamentally opposed to the World Assembly" (or to the UN...), too: Most actual members of the former National Sovereignty Organisation, who between them were responsible for quite a few 'substantive' resolutions, for example. The "fundamentally opposed" ones were just the so-called' strong NatSovs', such as the leaders of Gatesville. However what we more frequently saw expressed in these forums (at least if one excludes"drive-by" posts by people opposing specific proposals who were never heard from again...) was the 'moderate NatSov' viewpoint: The UN/WA has a legitimate role to play in legislating on matters that actually involve interactions between nations, or where a national government's actions would have direct effects on other nations (e.g. diplomacy, war, international trade, the international environment) -- and maybeso in legislating on the most fundamental rights, although there was less of a consensus among NatSovs on what that covered -- but should otherwise stay out of matters where national governments' actions generally wouldn't have "external" effects.

I agree with this. I don't think traditional, mainstream NatSovs were fundamentally opposed to the WA. I think Douria mischaracterized National Sovereignty in his essay deliberately to make this "new" version seem more appealing, but I can't speak for him.

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:When I first started paying attention to the GA forum (as opposed to being one of the lemmings, which I'd done for years), there was a clear bloc claiming that, more or less, something was not an international issue until it could be proven as one. That basic stance seemed to wither away not long after I started posting regularly. I've honestly never seen much utility in the NatSov/IntFed dichotomy - it seems to me RL nations are more than perfectly willing to be inconsistent as f--- when it comes to advancing their own agendas as principle-driven and philosophically motivated, yet dismiss other nations' agendas and arguments no matter how well they use the very same principles (think of the United States pointing out serious human rights violations all over the world, but sticking its fingers in its ears and going "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU" when someone points out how abominably USA-friendly banana republics - or sometimes the US itself - behave).

I try to play in that context, then - I'm more than willing to impose the WA on countries that don't want their citizens to have bodily sovereignty, then turn right around and say no, sorry, the World Assembly shouldn't have control of member nations' military establishments because that's none of anyone else's damn business.

Real nations try to impose friendly policies on other nations, while resisting still other nations' attempts to do the same to them. That doesn't need much gameside intellectual justification because that work's already been done by the likes of Hobbes and Macchiavelli.

Again, I don't necessarily think this new mindset is a bad thing. You rightly point out that it more accurately reflects how real nations in the real world interact. However, in the past, there was certainly a clear ideological divide that no longer exists in the mainstream, yet many players still appropriate NatSov language to justify their positions. Maybe that's fine and that type of dissembling just adds a new level of realism to the game. I'm not sure, I haven't explored that idea. But it is certainly different from how players interacted in the past. The whole purpose of this essay, really, is to explain a phenomenon, not necessarily to lament that strawberries don't taste as they used to and the thighs of women have lost their clutch and that things were so much better in the past.
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Postby Frustrated Franciscans » Sat May 14, 2016 11:44 am

Interesting argument. I agree, that for all practical purposes the NatSov argument (which was never a single unified argument) is more or less completely absent from resolution discourse. I should point out, however, that the original prohibition of NatSov alone as a basis for a repeal is more aligned with the notion that repeals should not just be rehashing or re-debating the original arguments for approval, but should be based on new arguments which were not obvious at the time of the passage. Even the lack of a NatSov argument implies that it was agreed that this was a worthy issue to take up before the body and to insist after it was passed that it was not, is just rehashing the original arguments anew.

I know that over the years and through my various UN/WA puppets I have changed from my original NatSov argument. Today, I generally argue from a principle of Subsidiarity., but even then, I'm not as heavily engaged in the debate as I used to. Yes I do see, from time to time, "Is this really something we should be even debating," but these examples are rare and often wind up in the thread of silly or illegal proposals.

In one sense NatSov is like spitting into the wind. Even the help text states ... "The World Assembly is the world's governing body. It's your chance to mold the world to your vision, by voting for resolutions you like and scuttling the rest." It implies the the tyranny of the majority. And if you are in the majority, you tend to love that raw power. If you are in the minority, you can't do anything about it. Considering that the majority of the majority generally do not participate in the forums to begin with, and that arguments in general in this forum rarely impact a resolution in a significant way, getting the majority of the majority to regulate their own voting behavior based on not what they want to impose upon others but upon whether of not such issues should be of international scope in the first place and whether the majority has the right to impose this upon all members, is an impossible task. And I'm not certain that if the tables were reversed and the minority became the majority, that their NatSov arguments would be thrown into the wind.

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Postby Araraukar » Sat May 14, 2016 12:37 pm

Frustrated Franciscans wrote:Differential Equations.

This explains quite sufficiently how I got along with those.
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sat May 14, 2016 12:53 pm

Frustrated Franciscans wrote:the original prohibition of NatSov alone as a basis for a repeal is more aligned with the notion that repeals should not just be rehashing or re-debating the original arguments for approval, but should be based on new arguments which were not obvious at the time of the passage.

If this was the genesis of that rule, I have no qualms with its removal.

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Postby Omigodtheykilledkenny » Sat May 14, 2016 2:22 pm

OK, well, first off, I wouldn't take Douria's old essay as any sort of authoritative treatise on sovereigntism, "modern" or not. It was primarily written with an objective of rebranding Osiris' WA ministry as a "pro-NatSov" one, and to help reconcile mousey's more erratic NatSov philosophy with Douria's more traditional one (since, as I recall, at the time Osiris and Europeia were attempting to align as the "big" NatSov regions in the game). The NatSov cause was badly damaged by mousey's very public and partisan support for #286 -- I'll readily admit that -- and is a main reason that sovereigntism seems so disparate and disjointed at times. Certainly one reason that sovereigntism is not so well represented on the forums of late is that the "old guard" sovereigntists like Yelda and Flib and Palentine have been very busy and unable to contribute like they used to, leaving the newer, more impressionable NatSovers without basic support and mentoring.

I very much appreciate Bears' input, as it seems to line up with mine and other "old guard" sovereigntists' view on the WA perfectly. Sovereigntism does not necessarily oppose WA power in all matters, but strives to limit it to areas where international intervention is warranted (i.e., areas where the actions of one nation might adversely affect another). This would naturally include issues related to trade, security, diplomacy, human rights, and even some environmental concerns. I have noticed that BA has in the past striven to justify the internationalism of his environmental legislation in particular, and in most cases, at least, I could see the logic behind supporting it without violating one's NatSov principles. That he actually saw a need to defend his resolutions against arguments that it was anti-soverereigntist or "not international in scope" was certainly admirable, even though I ended up opposing most of them anyway.
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sat May 14, 2016 2:25 pm

Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:That he actually saw a need to defend his resolutions against arguments that it was anti-soverereigntist or "not international in scope" was certainly admirable, even though I ended up opposing most of them anyway.

I wrote up an essay actually attempting to reconcile my support for financial regulation and standardisation whilst also maintaining a national sovereigntist approach recently. Don't really intend to publish it. I re-read it and realised that it fits perfectly with my own beliefs that I wrote in my WALR article on the role of the WA.

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Postby Unibot III » Sat May 14, 2016 5:22 pm

I'm glad this has been put out there for others to consider; I was always skeptical of Mousebumbles' "Is it an international topic?" Test for the reason that the answer was nearly always arbitrary. Modern NatSovers, loud and bold in their intentions, but low in intellectual honesty and consistency, inadvertently killed their own movement, peddling instead a global libertarianism that protects personal and corporate freedom at the expense of liberal intergovernmentalism, the environment, global civil society and ultimately, the sovereign capacity of the state.

This realigned the WA's debate from being a question of national sovereignty versus international federalism to a debate over neoliberalism versus liberalism - on one hand, we have those who see states as agents of social change and good, and on the other hand, we have those who see states as ideally little more than night-watchmen, privy to a personal and corporate anarchy.
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Postby Cybraxia » Sat May 14, 2016 5:23 pm

Forgive me, what is IntFed?

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Postby Tinfect » Sat May 14, 2016 5:27 pm

Cybraxia wrote:Forgive me, what is IntFed?


International Federalists. Basically the other side of the coin from what National Sovereigntists were supposed to be.
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Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Sat May 14, 2016 5:53 pm

Tinfect wrote:
Cybraxia wrote:Forgive me, what is IntFed?


International Federalists. Basically the other side of the coin from what National Sovereigntists were supposed to be.


And a pretty rare bird at that. I don't know that I recall anyone ever coming right out and saying "Yes, I believe the WA's powers are limited by what we exclude, not enumerated by what we include." That ideology seems self-evidently mistaken in a WA that hasn't already claimed an end goal of incorporating every member state into a literal federacy, one world government (contra GAR #2's many explicit guarantees).

If "true" National Sovereigntism has lost an intellectual basis, that's at least partly because its opponents, if they ever really existed, stopped articulating theirs.
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Sat May 14, 2016 10:58 pm

I must say, I have generally avoided using NatSov terminology or argumentation in my debates (a search of "international issue" turns up a lot of posts from my International Currency draft, some posts I quoted, and only one posts where I said Reproductive Freedoms trampled national sovereignty for something that wasn't an international issue).

The reason being is that I never really considered myself NatSov or IntFed. I tackle things being an international issue if they meet one of two requirements:
  • The issue in one nation has significant effects on others. For example, the spread of disease, or trade regulations. In this case, training police forces to have a good relationship with the public is not an international, issue, because it doesn't significantly affect other nations.
  • The issue, even if it has effects isolated to individual nations, is one in which the WA can achieve "objective good". This one gets tricky, but generally things like promoting sapient rights or prohibiting genocide are "objectively good" (and yes, I know they are only subjectively good), while making sure everyone can terminate their pregnancies is not objectively good.

I then can maintain consistency in saying RF is not an international issue but Reproductive Education Act is an international issue.
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