The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, version II)

[Abcdefghijklmnopqrstuk]

I'll admit it, there is really no way a nation of my rank (mid 60's) should be able to shut-out a team like Pasarga(a top 25 team) twice. I like the idea that gives all nations a chance and an upset now and again is okay, but in RL how often does Mexico lose to cape verde Islands twice in a row. I like the idea that any team can win on any day, but something has to be done in the area of the scorinator or RP bonuses to make rankings meen more again, because right now it is just a number you can say you have.

And when the person who stands most to gain from randomness against one of my teams agrees with me... gentlemen and ladies, perhaps we have an issue to address.

lol. I agree as well. An example is how in my friendly tournament that I scorinated I beat TKC, ranked a solid 20 places higher than me with a better RP Bonus, by a few goals, but my non-RPing 200-something ranked puppet beat me 3-0.

[Vilita]

I agree with Arch entirely, and for that reason will not be supporting Valanora's amendment as it stands, though I strongly agree with the author's intentions.

Subsequently, though I am both unfamiliar with the proposal nomination process (and the protocols behind them) and thoroughly convinced it will not pass, I hereby submit my own amendment proposal:

Cohosts of the World Cup are required to facilitate the scorination of matches involving the Qualifying stages and of the Final stages but are disallowed from scorinating third party matches or "friendlies."

I'll support this too, though I think disallowed from scorinating is a bit strong.

Disallowed from proposing to or organizing as part of the world cup is more like it.

If Soviet Canuckistan has a "international sports friendlies thread" then bids to host the world cup, the mere existence of this thread should not preclude him from bidding for a world cup, he just shouldn't be simulating Friendlies as part of the world cup, posting them in the official world cup scores thread and/or using them as leverage for earning the right to host the world cup

[Cassadaigua]

And on a separate issue, I do think that the balance of late has tilted too much towards randomness and RP than rank; that in fact because of how the scorinator works, attempts to increase RP bonuses have led to a consequent increase in randomness that's unbalanced the competition. Not that we want a return to the situation in the late 20s when only three teams stood a realistic chance of winning; but we can perhaps look at lessening the amount of randomness somewhat. That's not the fault of the hosts - but there are flaws (perhaps 'distortions' would be a better word) in the scorinator that few people seem willing to acknowledge or address.

One can always be high ranked and roleplay. Not saying you don't but if you look at the high ranked teams that roleplayed often, they had monster campaigns. One's rank is only your starter value throughout the tournament. In a horse race, you can have a pace-setter and a closer. The pace-setter can start fast but if the run is flat, why should he beat the closer who started slow but worked hard to the wire? That's what happens here with rank and roleplay. If the pace-setter wants to win, they can't expect to coast to the finish. There's nothing wrong with "#60 beating #25", #25, especially in the 20-group system is certainly going to be a bubble team and #60 has advanced enough to where in my opinion it is only a mild upset. That's not randomness, that's sports being sports.

[Kagdazka and Pazhujebu]

I agree with Arch entirely, and for that reason will not be supporting Valanora's amendment as it stands, though I strongly agree with the author's intentions.

Subsequently, though I am both unfamiliar with the proposal nomination process (and the protocols behind them) and thoroughly convinced it will not pass, I hereby submit my own amendment proposal:

Cohosts of the World Cup are required to facilitate the scorination of matches involving the Qualifying stages and of the Final stages but are disallowed from scorinating third party matches or "friendlies."

I'll support this too, though I think disallowed from scorinating is a bit strong.

Disallowed from proposing to or organizing as part of the world cup is more like it.

If Soviet Canuckistan has a "international sports friendlies thread" then bids to host the world cup, the mere existence of this thread should not preclude him from bidding for a world cup, he just shouldn't be simulating Friendlies as part of the world cup, posting them in the official world cup scores thread and/or using them as leverage for earning the right to host the world cup

Well said, Vilita. Proposal updated.

[Vilita]

I agree with Arch entirely, and for that reason will not be supporting Valanora's amendment as it stands, though I strongly agree with the author's intentions.

Subsequently, though I am both unfamiliar with the proposal nomination process (and the protocols behind them) and thoroughly convinced it will not pass, I hereby submit my own amendment proposal:

Cohosts of the World Cup are required to facilitate the scorination of matches involving the Qualifying stages and of the Final stages but are disallowed from proposing or organizing scorination of third party matches or "friendlies" as an official part of the World Cup.

This says the same thing without using the word disallow, which just sounds mean

Cohosts of the World Cup are required to facilitate the scorination of matches involving the Qualifying stages and of the Final stages of competition. Co-hosts may not include as part of their proposal, or actively participate in the organization or scorination of any additional matches, be them "friendlies", "Mini-Cups" or other non Qualifying or Finals related matches as an official part of the World Cup they are hosting.

[Valanora]

And on a separate issue, I do think that the balance of late has tilted too much towards randomness and RP than rank; that in fact because of how the scorinator works, attempts to increase RP bonuses have led to a consequent increase in randomness that's unbalanced the competition. Not that we want a return to the situation in the late 20s when only three teams stood a realistic chance of winning; but we can perhaps look at lessening the amount of randomness somewhat. That's not the fault of the hosts - but there are flaws (perhaps 'distortions' would be a better word) in the scorinator that few people seem willing to acknowledge or address.

One can always be high ranked and roleplay. Not saying you don't but if you look at the high ranked teams that roleplayed often, they had monster campaigns. One's rank is only your starter value throughout the tournament. In a horse race, you can have a pace-setter and a closer. The pace-setter can start fast but if the run is flat, why should he beat the closer who started slow but worked hard to the wire? That's what happens here with rank and roleplay. If the pace-setter wants to win, they can't expect to coast to the finish. There's nothing wrong with "#60 beating #25", #25, especially in the 20-group system is certainly going to be a bubble team and #60 has advanced enough to where in my opinion it is only a mild upset. That's not randomness, that's sports being sports.

Except in this case, #25 was consistently RPing with a storyline of sorts and still dropping points left and right not only to #60 but to unranked or 200ranked sides that had not contributed to the tournament at all. I've said it on IRC and I will say it here, I am quite annoyed with this WC cycle for Pasarga as I was actively participating with them and my results were the worst I've had for them in four or five tournaments. This was not me just hoping they would coast on the merit of their rank alone, it was me doing what I could while writing a story for mine and others benefits at the same time.

When those teams that are being rewarded from the major increase of randomness over rank and roleplay are complaining, then it is a problem and not sports being sports.

[Sarzonia]

"Disallowing" hosts who are willing to scorinate friendlies from doing so is a horrible idea and one I will never support.

[Jeruselem]

Thanks Vilita for the support, I was wondering why I was ranked 31st. I've only gained like ... 19 spots not counting this cup.

[Darmen]

"Disallowing" hosts who are willing to scorinate friendlies from doing so is a horrible idea and one I will never support.

I agree with this 100%.

[Vilita]

"Disallowing" hosts who are willing to scorinate friendlies from doing so is a horrible idea and one I will never support.

I agree with this 100%.

Thats why I changed the wording that KandP proposed

[Jeruselem]

I did pretty well for the 31st ranked team ...

[Kalumba]

Perhaps some form of penalty could be introduced for teams that do not post rosters or RP at all to help the teams who do consistently RP. Say they get a minus RP bonus if they miss three match days and lose a quarter of their rank bonus if they fail to post a roster by a week into the World Cup campaign?

Not sure if something like this already exists, so ignore me if i am just rambling

[Jeruselem]

Perhaps some form of penalty could be introduced for teams that do not post rosters or RP at all to help the teams who do consistently RP. Say they get a minus RP bonus if they miss three match days and lose a quarter of their starting bonus if they fail to post a roster by a week into the World Cup campaign?

Not sure if something like this already exists, so ignore me if i am just rambling

But some people might not be able to post or RP because they are working in Siberia or something.

[Kalumba]

quote]

But some people might not be able to post or RP because they are working in Siberia or something.

This was more aimed at the people who sign up for the BoF and WC and never post anything in either competition. And if you know you can't RP why sign up?

[Jeruselem]

Kalumba, there's always people who sign and forget. Most of those are so lowly ranked, they'll never qualify.

[Kalumba]

Kalumba, there's always people who sign and forget. Most of those are so lowly ranked, they'll never qualify.

But they can still take points early on from teams who might qualify, if they lose all their bonuses there is less chance this will happen. But i am not really sure how the scorinator works, so can't really comment on what effect this would have.

Also shouldn't nations that go inactive/disappar have all their bonuses taken away, or does this already happen?

[Jeruselem]

I'm no scorinator expert, but if you don't post a roster or RP then you don't get bonuses. You basically get by on rank and randomness alone.

[Sorthern Northland]

This was more aimed at the people who sign up for the BoF and WC and never post anything in either competition. And if you know you can't RP why sign up?

It's often not known when the next World Cup will start for a long time whilst signups are open. For the current World Cup I signed up in mid-August. I RPed only once (and that was before it actually started) in the first half or half of qualifying as I was away for about ten days. At the time that I signed-up however I hadn't planed on going away for the start of World Cup qualifying.

[Kalumba]

Seeing all the holes in my suggestion now I was aiming it more at those teams that only post once in NS Sports and never come back again. But you can't have a punishment for one group, that doesn't apply to everyone. Just forget i ever said anything

[Jeruselem]

I understand the sentiment ... but implementation is devil there. Best not being Nazis about it

[Rhodesiah]

I'm no scorinator expert, but if you don't post a roster or RP then you don't get bonuses. You basically get by on rank and randomness alone.

There was a lot of randomness in favour of lower-ranked Sarzoclava. But I'm sure puppets of hosts would never get special treatment.

[Astograth]

I'll throw in my two cents regarding the topics currently being discussed:

I wouldn't know how to word it properly for inclusion in the Constitution, or even if it would do any good, but I believe host-scorinated friendlies are absurd as they are now. I haven't personally experienced the workload, but it is clearly considerable and serves no real purpose. If people really want to play each other they can organize their own friendlies; the way it is now people fill up their slots just because they're there, they're free and can't possibly go to waste. I wouldn't prohibit hosts from scorinating friendlies if they wish, but under no circumstances should it be used as leverage to win a bid; this is the bit that I think would be the trickiest to actually implement due to the mechanics of bidding and voting. Just my opinion.

As for rank vs. randomness and RP, speaking as my group's third seed, I must admit there is a tendency for randomness to prevail over the other R's, which can be very frustrating for both low- and high-ranked competitors who roleplay consistently yet see themselves continuously trumped by nations who have not posted a roster and, in some cases, have even ceased to exist. I'd rather not mention names as I don't know who'd be alright with my usage of them as examples, but it's not at all hard to find cases. As Arch pointed out, I believe there are distortions in the scorinating systems that are not necessarily anyone's fault but should be looked into in the interest of a fairer, more enjoyable tournament for everyone.

I'd also like to thank Starblaydia for his contributions to the entire NS Sports community, both in- and out-of-character. I don't think we've ever been at all close, and indeed I missed out on your "golden age" for lack of a better word(s), yet you've always been welcoming and an example to follow. I may just be a footnote in the history of NS Sports, but for what it's worth, thank you.

[Vilita]

This was more aimed at the people who sign up for the BoF and WC and never post anything in either competition. And if you know you can't RP why sign up?

It's often not known when the next World Cup will start for a long time whilst signups are open. For the current World Cup I signed up in mid-August. I RPed only once (and that was before it actually started) in the first half or half of qualifying as I was away for about ten days. At the time that I signed-up however I hadn't planed on going away for the start of World Cup qualifying.

I signed up, never appeared on any list of nations confirmed for signuo and never had any indicatio I would be included in the cup until the group draw was posted and my name showed up. I could imagie if i was a less aware natio I'd have had no clue!

[Krytenia]

Basically, a lot of stuff that kills off the biggest rivalry in NS football, bar none.

Well, there goes my World Cup 60 bid. And most of the lore that Krytie football is built on.

I'm gonna be honest with you; I may not be long out of the door afterwards One of the main reasons for me still plugging away was the "Starblaydi factor", and with that gone...I'll see how it goes. I'll be here for WC58; after that, I genuinely have no idea.

[Mangolana]

Given that star is leaving, what does this now do for the Di-Brandi/U-21 World Cup.