The Bluewell Conflict [OOC|MT|CLOSED]

[Pillowlandia]

Pillow, I launched a shit ton of missiles at Bluewell, targeting basically power plants, airports, ports, bridges, military bases, radar stations, civilian centers etc.

Poast losses plox

oh yeah, almost forgot. I think I need more sleep.

[Vaander]

//

[Pillowlandia]

oh yeah, almost forgot. I think I need more sleep.

How does the Southpoint dam would impact your vehicular forces in the area?

Heavy and medium armor would be out of the question, light armor would be suspect and trying to organize convoys would likely be a Poor idea. Thus Bluewell is effectively divided by land though the air is certainly still heavily in control of government forces.

[Mizrad]

How does the Southpoint dam would impact your vehicular forces in the area?

Heavy and medium armor would be out of the question, light armor would be suspect and trying to organize convoys would likely be a Poor idea. Thus Bluewell is effectively divided by land though the air is certainly still heavily in control of government forces.

Pillowlandia would your government be opposed to Mizrad operating the IFC refugee zones in the northeast? I'm trying to appear as a neutral party considering I haven't been involved in conflict yet.

[Ralkovian Grand Island]

How does the Southpoint dam would impact your vehicular forces in the area?

Heavy and medium armor would be out of the question, light armor would be suspect and trying to organize convoys would likely be a Poor idea. Thus Bluewell is effectively divided by land though the air is certainly still heavily in control of government forces.

Depending on the size of the dam in question and the water storage, massive flooding would likely rule out any sort of armor and civilian casualties would be massive. You'd need to rely on either high ground trucks or amphibious vehicles, I believe.

Hope you guys have canoes.

[Mizrad]

Heavy and medium armor would be out of the question, light armor would be suspect and trying to organize convoys would likely be a Poor idea. Thus Bluewell is effectively divided by land though the air is certainly still heavily in control of government forces.

Depending on the size of the dam in question and the water storage, massive flooding would likely rule out any sort of armor and civilian casualties would be massive. You'd need to rely on either high ground trucks or amphibious vehicles, I believe.

Hope you guys have canoes.

Is this dam/river on the map by any chance?

[Ralkovian Grand Island]

Depending on the size of the dam in question and the water storage, massive flooding would likely rule out any sort of armor and civilian casualties would be massive. You'd need to rely on either high ground trucks or amphibious vehicles, I believe.

Hope you guys have canoes.

Is this dam/river on the map by any chance?

No clue, but if it washed out the highway, then expect heavy civilian casualties and massive mud. That entire area will now effectively be a quagmire, which of course is where I'm going to have to force you guys into. Hope you enjoy the malaria.

[Marquesan]

I wouldn't really have issue with "additional fuel tanks, sonobuoys, a rotodome, small USVs, AUVs, and a decent payload of torpedoes" because it is nothing your average maritime patrol aircraft has; but are you aware that even when on ships or submarines, towed array can be extended only in speed up to 20 knots, which is actually far slower than this thing can go?

Oh yeah, 'course. It's only extended when it's floating on the surface. Ausitoria treats the Capricorn like a ship which happens to be able to fly to get from one place to the next.

Um, if you'd like the full list of sensors, there's also FLIR, sniffers, and MAD; although of course nowadays many submarines aren't magnetic, diesel, or liable to come to the surface. Then the payload bay can be fitted with torpedoes, rockets, missiles, depth charges and so on and so forth... basically much the usual, plus the unusual.

The only problem I can see with retractable sonobuoys is primarily as New Aeyariss described; to use them, the Capricorn would have to be moving well below its stall speed. A towed array, as I understand it, would use hydrophones that are dragged along through the water by a cable. Beyond a certain speed, the hydrophones would be useless, not to mention that the entire array would subject the tail of the aircraft to a crapload of drag until it broke off. Capricorn is essentially a big ass Ekranoplan, so it would take off and land on water but is really intended for long distance cargo runs at very low altitudes, using ground effect for lift and could occasionally trade airspeed for altitude and climb, though it would be a big wallowy son of a bitch.

Capricorn was my solution to needing to seabase heavy tracked armor en-masse. This allows you to mobilize even logistical support vehicles like tankers, bridging vehicles and wreckers for amphibious landing without the need for big, slow landing craft. An amphibious landing with Capricorns instead of landing craft or hovercraft like Zubr's or LCAC's gives many times less warning to the defender and puts an enormous amount of cargo on the beach pretty much instantaneously.

It would be an extremely capable submarine hunter, however, using a MAD array a-la-P3 Orion. The only problem I can see is that Capricorn is fudging huge, and it would need a lot of wide open space to turn around. In other words, not the most maneuverable thing in the universe. However, it's way faster than a ship. We're talking about something AN-225 size flying low to the water... any half-decent 120mm naval gun could reduce one to a fiery floating hulk without much work and you'd want to protect your Capricorns. You could absolutely fit side-discharging torpedo launchers from it and fire off torpedoes from now til doomsday with the hunter/killer variant. Really isn't a bad idea at all; I'm in the middle of a fairly major redesign of MTD's aircraft line, I may add a variant along these lines. I certainly approve of the idea.

A towed array would be very practical from even a fast hydrofoil, but a Capricorn would have to move much faster to continue to produce lift, especially at or near max takeoff weight. If a towed array can only be used up to like 40 Km/H then it wouldn't be practical. The rest of that, though, hell yes. Putting a Radome like an AWACS on it is inspired; such a craft would be an extremely capable way to coordinate large scale naval fires or missile volleys with high accuracy. A single hunter/killer Capricorn could carry a tremendous amount of sensors and weapons that would leave almost no warning for submarines beneath it.

Very cool idea, guys.

[Mizrad]

Just down to finishing my ORBAT, diplomatic statements and fleet preparation. At last I see the light at the end of the tunnel!

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Where is the southpoint dam, exactly? And Southpoint, being at the end of a mountain chain, should really be quite mountainous...

Putting a Radome like an AWACS on it is inspired; such a craft would be an extremely capable way to coordinate large scale naval fires or missile volleys with high accuracy. A single hunter/killer Capricorn could carry a tremendous amount of sensors and weapons that would leave almost no warning for submarines beneath it.

Very cool idea, guys.

Thanks, that means a lot coming from you!

The only problem I can see with retractable sonobuoys is primarily as New Aeyariss described; to use them, the Capricorn would have to be moving well below its stall speed.

Ah, sorry, my miscommunication - the sonobuoys would indeed have to be the sort one drops like from convention maritime patrols (unless I can design something that actually could withstand being towed at whatever the stall speed is; and not suffer from turbulence destroying its sonar capability. (By the way, what is the stall speed?)

The towed array, by comparison, would be used while the Capricorn was floating along on the surface.

We're talking about something AN-225 size flying low to the water... any half-decent 120mm naval gun could reduce one to a fiery floating hulk without much work and you'd want to protect your Capricorns.

Quite, not really something to be used in the front line itself - like most of my inventions.

I suppose nations becoming big doesn't change what you put on the front lines of a battle or back on the home front (beyond greater specialization); but because the distance in between changes, that's the strategic area for new things.

[Marquesan]

Ah, sorry, my miscommunication - the sonobuoys would indeed have to be the sort one drops like from convention maritime patrols (unless I can design something that actually could withstand being towed at whatever the stall speed is; and not suffer from turbulence destroying its sonar capability. (By the way, what is the stall speed?)

The towed array, by comparison, would be used while the Capricorn was floating along on the surface.

It would be quite easy to design sonobuoys that communicate by the same encrypted radio network the rest of MTD equipment uses, SANMEN. I can't imagine that being a problem, go ahead and just say you have those. I'm sure they'd exist in the NS world... if MTD was a real company, somebody woulda designed one by now. lol

As far as the stall speed goes, I'm not precisely sure how I'd figure it. My understanding of physics tells me an Ekranoplan would lose its lift at maybe a slower speed than an aircraft of otherwise equivalent size would because the Ekranoplan would be optimized for low altitude flight and so it would take the greatest advantage of ground effect; it would have to be more efficient at slower speeds for this to be the case--you're certainly not going to get a Capricorn up near anything like the sound barrier, on the opposite end of things.

We would also need to bear in mind that a Capricorn would be carrying an incredible amount of weight; what this really means is a very very high wing-loading number. (Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here, but...) My understanding is that more thrust is required to sustain positive lift with higher wing loading; this leads to high landing speeds for aircraft like F-104 Starfighters and F-4 Phantom II's. The same would bear out, theoretically, with Capricorn.

These two aspects of the question seem to counteract each other. We could, perhaps, look at some of the larger Soviet Ekranoplans for an analogue. In short, while the Ekranoplan is optimized to take advantage of ground effect, its wings would be bearing an incredible amount of weight. I'd say the stall speed would be roughly equal to...I donno... for guesstimation purposes, maybe a quarter of its cruise speed? I'd be open to suggestion from one of the other old guys around here with a richer background in the technical subtleties than I possess.

[The Technocratic Syndicalists]

I'd be potentially interested in joining this RP on the Bluewell Independence/protection side.

With regards to the current discussion:

sonobuoys are designed to be expendable and are purely passive detection devices. An aircraft or helicopter will just eject them over the ocean at whatever speed. Dipping sonars like AN/AQS-13 or the newer AN/AQS-22 is something that is commonly used by ASW helicopters, it's basically an active sonar that the helicopter "drags" through the water at low speed or while it's hovering, at high speeds flow noise will basically blind the array. A ship based towed array is similar, only bigger.

Something that isn't commonly known is that submarines can detect aircraft while they're underwater using passive sonar. The soviet tu-95 "Bear" was reportedly so loud that submerged NATO submarines could pick up a bear on passive sonar while the bear was flying overhead at several thousand feet. A helicopter hovering overhead can also be heard by a submarine. Thus a large, ground effect aircraft like a Lun-class ekranoplan probably isn't great for ASW, the sub will detect it and dive to escape. Something like a P-8 Poseidon or S-3 Viking probably are your best options for fixed wing ASW.

The other thing to keep in mind in ASW aircraft and helicopters are only capable of detecting submarines at fairly shallow depths. A submarine operating below the thermocline (around 200 meters depending on the season, where water rapidly changes in temperature and density and thus creates a negative refractive index ) is basically invisible to any kind of active sonar above it as the thermocline "reflects" acoustic energy, the sonar waves basically bouncing off of it. To detect a sub below the recline you need a ship based low frequency active towed array like SURTASS or Sonar 2087.

[The Technocratic Syndicalists]

nation: The Technocratic Syndicate (aka Techno)

Side intervening on(independence,annexation,third pary): independecne

ORBAT:

Navy:

Carrier Strike Group Three

• 1x Galaxy Class Carrier(CVN)
  
  • SSV Gorgon
• 2x Tempest Class Cruisers(CGN)
  
  • SSV Templar
  • SSV Torrent
• 1x Sovereign Class Destroyer (DDGN)
  
  • SSV Scylla
• 1x Hydra Class Submarine(SSGN)
  
  • SSV Hammerhead
• Carrier Air Wing Three:
  
  • four fighter squadrons of 10 F/A-36C Sea Seraph Fighters
  • one ISR squadron of 8 X-47C UCLASS UAVs
  • one early warning squadron of 4 E-2C Hawkeyes
  • one anti-submarine squadron of 10 S-3 Vikings
  • one tiltrotor anti-submarine squadron of 11 SV-22 Ospreys (5 carried on escorts)
  • one logistics support squadron of 4 C-3 Vikings
• one P-8 Poseidon anti-submarine/maritime patrol aircraft (land based)
• one RQ-4C maritime patrol UAV (land based)
• total: 72+7 aircraft and tiltrotors

Total: 4,850 men

Carrier Strike Group Six

• 1x Galaxy Class Carrier(CVN)
  
  • SSV Gargoyle
• 2x Tempest Class Cruisers(CGN)
  
  • SSV Triton
  • SSV Typhoon
• 1x Sovereign Class Destroyer (DDGN)
  
  • SSV Styx
• 1x Hydra Class Submarine(SSGN)
  
  • SSV Hyperion
• Carrier Air Wing Six:
  
  • four fighter squadrons of 10 F/A-36C Sea Seraph Fighters
  • one ISR squadron of 8 X-47C UCLASS UAVs
  • one early warning squadron of 4 E-2C Hawkeyes
  • one anti-submarine squadron of 10 S-3 Vikings
  • one tiltrotor anti-submarine squadron of 11 SV-22 Ospreys (5 carried on escorts)
  • one logistics support squadron of 4 C-3 Vikings
  • one P-8 Poseidon anti-submarine/maritime patrol aircraft (land based)
  • one RQ-4C maritime patrol UAV (land based)
  • total: 72+7 aircraft and tiltrotors
  Total: 4,850 men
  
  Carrier Strike Group Nine
  
  • 1x Galaxy Class Carrier(CVN)
    
    • SSV Ghost
  • 2x Tempest Class Cruisers(CGN)
    
    • SSV Titan
    • SSV Trident
  • 1x Sovereign Class Destroyer (DDGN)
    
    • SSV Storm
  • 1x Hydra Class Submarine(SSGN)
    
    • SSV Harbinger
  • Carrier Air Wing Nine:
    
    • four fighter squadrons of 10 F/A-36C Sea Seraph Fighters
    • one ISR squadron of 8 X-47C UCLASS UAVs
    • one early warning squadron of 4 E-2C Hawkeyes
    • one anti-submarine squadron of 10 S-3 Vikings
    • one tiltrotor anti-submarine squadron of 11 SV-22 Ospreys (5 carried on escorts)
    • one logistics support squadron of 4 C-3 Vikings
    • one P-8 Poseidon anti-submarine/maritime patrol aircraft (land based)
    • one RQ-4C maritime patrol UAV (land based)
    • total: 72+7 aircraft and tiltrotors
    Total: 4,850 men
    
    Navy total: 14,550 personnel (not including land based support/logistics)
    
    
    Air Force:
    
    
    606th Operations Group:
    
    • 606th bomb wing:
      
      • 24x Harbinger Stealth Bombers
    • 501st air refueling squadron:
      
      • 6x KC-46 tankers
    633rd Airborne Air Control Squadron:
    
    • 5x E-10 Multi-Sensor Command and Control Aircraft
    
    Eight Operations Group:
    
    • 13th Reconnaissance Squadron:
      
      • 6x SR-96 Valkyrie strategic reconnaissance aircraft
    • 801st air refueling squadron:
      
      • 6x KC-46Q tankers
    • 88th Reconnaissance Squadron:
      
      • 10x RQ-180 ISTAR UAVs

Air Force total: ~6,000 personnel (includes aircrew and logistics/support)

Syndicate Armed Forces Total: ~20,550 personell

RP Sample: Zelphosian civil war, Titansfall

If you wish to RP as an Insurgent, make a short bio/history of it: N/A

[Pillowlandia]

nation: The Technocratic Syndicate (aka Techno)

Side intervening on(independence,annexation,third pary): independecne

ORBAT:

Navy:

Carrier Strike Group Three

• 1x Galaxy Class Carrier(CVN)
  
  • SSV Gorgon
• 2x Tempest Class Cruisers(CGN)
  
  • SSV Templar
  • SSV Torrent
• 1x Sovereign Class Destroyer (DDGN)
  
  • SSV Scylla
• 1x Hydra Class Submarine(SSGN)
  
  • SSV Hammerhead
• Carrier Air Wing Three:
  
  • four fighter squadrons of 10 F/A-36C Sea Seraph Fighters
  • one ISR squadron of 8 X-47C UCLASS UAVs
  • one early warning squadron of 4 E-2C Hawkeyes
  • one anti-submarine squadron of 10 S-3 Vikings
  • one tiltrotor anti-submarine squadron of 11 SV-22 Ospreys (5 carried on escorts)
  • one logistics support squadron of 4 C-3 Vikings
• one P-8 Poseidon anti-submarine/maritime patrol aircraft (land based)
• one RQ-4C maritime patrol UAV (land based)
• total: 72+7 aircraft and tiltrotors

Total: 4,850 men

Carrier Strike Group Six

• 1x Galaxy Class Carrier(CVN)
  
  • SSV Gargoyle
• 2x Tempest Class Cruisers(CGN)
  
  • SSV Triton
  • SSV Typhoon
• 1x Sovereign Class Destroyer (DDGN)
  
  • SSV Styx
• 1x Hydra Class Submarine(SSGN)
  
  • SSV Hyperion
• Carrier Air Wing Six:
  
  • four fighter squadrons of 10 F/A-36C Sea Seraph Fighters
  • one ISR squadron of 8 X-47C UCLASS UAVs
  • one early warning squadron of 4 E-2C Hawkeyes
  • one anti-submarine squadron of 10 S-3 Vikings
  • one tiltrotor anti-submarine squadron of 11 SV-22 Ospreys (5 carried on escorts)
  • one logistics support squadron of 4 C-3 Vikings
  • one P-8 Poseidon anti-submarine/maritime patrol aircraft (land based)
  • one RQ-4C maritime patrol UAV (land based)
  • total: 72+7 aircraft and tiltrotors
  Total: 4,850 men
  
  Carrier Strike Group Nine
  
  • 1x Galaxy Class Carrier(CVN)
    
    • SSV Ghost
  • 2x Tempest Class Cruisers(CGN)
    
    • SSV Titan
    • SSV Trident
  • 1x Sovereign Class Destroyer (DDGN)
    
    • SSV Storm
  • 1x Hydra Class Submarine(SSGN)
    
    • SSV Harbinger
  • Carrier Air Wing Nine:
    
    • four fighter squadrons of 10 F/A-36C Sea Seraph Fighters
    • one ISR squadron of 8 X-47C UCLASS UAVs
    • one early warning squadron of 4 E-2C Hawkeyes
    • one anti-submarine squadron of 10 S-3 Vikings
    • one tiltrotor anti-submarine squadron of 11 SV-22 Ospreys (5 carried on escorts)
    • one logistics support squadron of 4 C-3 Vikings
    • one P-8 Poseidon anti-submarine/maritime patrol aircraft (land based)
    • one RQ-4C maritime patrol UAV (land based)
    • total: 72+7 aircraft and tiltrotors
    Total: 4,850 men
    
    Navy total: 14,550 personnel (not including land based support/logistics)
    
    
    Air Force:
    
    
    606th Operations Group:
    
    • 606th bomb wing:
      
      • 24x Harbinger Stealth Bombers
    • 501st air refueling squadron:
      
      • 6x KC-46 tankers
    633rd Airborne Air Control Squadron:
    
    • 5x E-10 Multi-Sensor Command and Control Aircraft
    
    Eight Operations Group:
    
    • 13th Reconnaissance Squadron:
      
      • 6x SR-96 Valkyrie strategic reconnaissance aircraft
    • 801st air refueling squadron:
      
      • 6x KC-46Q tankers
    • 88th Reconnaissance Squadron:
      
      • 10x RQ-180 ISTAR UAVs

Air Force total: ~6,000 personnel (includes aircrew and logistics/support)

Syndicate Armed Forces Total: ~20,550 personell

RP Sample: Zelphosian civil war, Titansfall

If you wish to RP as an Insurgent, make a short bio/history of it: N/A

While at the moment I'm going to have to say no, as the RP is closed.
However, we've allowed a few exceptions so perhaps in a little bit, though no guarantees.

[Pillowlandia]

Heavy and medium armor would be out of the question, light armor would be suspect and trying to organize convoys would likely be a Poor idea. Thus Bluewell is effectively divided by land though the air is certainly still heavily in control of government forces.

Pillowlandia would your government be opposed to Mizrad operating the IFC refugee zones in the northeast? I'm trying to appear as a neutral party considering I haven't been involved in conflict yet.

Yes it would, as of now it is viewing any IFC administrated areas as a hostile act. However it would not mind if IFC forces (excluding Libs ground forces) were to assist government forces in dealing with the situation.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Since the IFC is party to the conflict, I presume techno could RP techno-RRF operating under their remit?

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

IFC members, opinions please?

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Vaander, just to say; the IFC's forces haven't fully retreated yet - so far they're only retreating from Fort Invincible, Daunting, East, and Southcreek; as a sign of goodwill to the Torres government. You can see the positions about now on this map estimate.

Pillowlandia, could you let me know the location of Commonwealth units?

[Vaander]

//

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Vaander, just to say; the IFC's forces haven't fully retreated yet - so far they're only retreating from Fort Invincible, Daunting, East, and Southcreek; as a sign of goodwill to the Torres government. You can see the positions about now on this map estimate.

Pillowlandia, could you let me know the location of Commonwealth units?

Are they opposing the BIA still?

No, not opposing anyone except the slavers.

[Vaander]

//

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Certainly, with all due respect etc.

[Mizrad]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand my post is up. I'm going to edit in an ORBAT soon don't worry.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Thanks!

Just another map update - I've added (likely) positions for major Pillowlandian forces. (Of course Pillowlandia can correct me - indeed I hope you do, Pillowlandia).

(I may be annoying as anything sometimes, but I make nice maps).

[Ralkovian Grand Island]

When can I expect a post from you Aus?