[Abandoned] Repeal "Condemn Allied States of EuroIslanders"

[Mallorea and Riva]

The man who ordered forum destruction, BB ladies and gentlemen!

[Blackbird]

The man who ordered forum destruction, BB ladies and gentlemen!

Your pitiful attempt to detract from the issue is as contemptible as it is a lie.

[KaelThas Quilor]

Raiders even at their worst cannot destroy a 'community'. Only a community can destroy a community, in NS. All they can do, at their worst, is destroy a region.

[Blackbird]

Raiders even at their worst cannot destroy a 'community'. Only a community can destroy a community, in NS. All they can do, at their worst, is destroy a region.

Clearly, you weren't around when I was. Twelve and odd years ago, back when griefing rules were less developed and enforced, invaders routinely invaded and occupied regions, expelling the natives. Even once founders came about, invaders would routinley target founderless regions, many of whom did not have offsite forums, expel the natives, and refound it. Those natives had to remember who was in the region in order to reconnect and start again. This destroyed many communities, and I have no qualms describing it thusly.

Of course, this again is a side-track from my point about the politics at play here.

[Unibot III]

I'm fairly sure Sector ZYX did face consequences, but his act of forum destruction was six years ago and I believe the consequences occurred then. I'm not entirely sure.

Regardless, this resolution was proposed primarily because I saw the way invaders were treating the forum destroyers in their midst -- literally as if nothing even happened -- and I thought it unjust for ASE to continue to be stigmatized. The reaction to this proposal has confirmed for me that gameplay is every bit the toxic, poisonous, hypocritical environment I know it to be, and that most gameplayers don't actually care about forum destruction unless they can score political points. I'll remember that next time the same people still invading with Syl and Shadoke call for the heads of a forum destroyer they don't like, and I will no longer support any worse consequences for a forum destroyer than for a region destroyer.

You are quite correct, Cormac.

Back in the days in which these events took place, invaders were than happy to invade founderless regions, expel and grief all the natives, and refound it to prevent the community from existing again. Defenders united to fight against these invader scum.

When members of the Red Liberty Alliance, none of whom were members of the Allied States of Euroislanders, committed forum destruction, the Executive Committee of the Red Liberty Alliance, of which Eurosoviets was the head, and the Supreme Soviet of the Red Liberty Alliance, the highest legislative body of the Red Liberty Alliance, roundly and emphatically condemned the forum destruction, punished the offenders, and expelled them.

The only reason the Allied States of Euroislanders was targeted is that some people don't like its founder, and it's very easy to play with the politics of forum destruction. Invaders had no qualms about destroying communities back then, and though I do not pretend to be a follower of current events, as I understand it their regions and alliances continue to harbor those who have committed these acts.

It is simply rank hypocrisy, rank not because of its transparent self-serving nature, but rank because it is old and stale: it is part and parcel of the trends of invaders to try to make themselves "respectable" by playing a game of politics that could never win.

Thanks for speaking up against it, Blackbird.

[KaelThas Quilor]

Raiders even at their worst cannot destroy a 'community'. Only a community can destroy a community, in NS. All they can do, at their worst, is destroy a region.

Clearly, you weren't around when I was. Twelve and odd years ago, back when griefing rules were less developed and enforced, invaders routinely invaded and occupied regions, expelling the natives. Even once founders came about, invaders would routinley target founderless regions, many of whom did not have offsite forums, expel the natives, and refound it. Those natives had to remember who was in the region in order to reconnect and start again. This destroyed many communities, and I have no qualms describing it thusly.

Of course, this again is a side-track from my point about the politics at play here.

A community that is made up of strong connections and real relationships will survive a region's destruction, offsite forums or no offsite forums.

[Solorni]

I am simply amazed that a well known defender supporter of forum destruction would oppose this measure. While Blackbird might not give a crap about forum destruction except when his region of TPC was forced to apologize for its crimes and say that we weren't around back then. Many other players from the time period Blackbird states despise forum destruction and don't share in his whitewashing of history.

[Blackbird]

Clearly, you weren't around when I was. Twelve and odd years ago, back when griefing rules were less developed and enforced, invaders routinely invaded and occupied regions, expelling the natives. Even once founders came about, invaders would routinley target founderless regions, many of whom did not have offsite forums, expel the natives, and refound it. Those natives had to remember who was in the region in order to reconnect and start again. This destroyed many communities, and I have no qualms describing it thusly.

Of course, this again is a side-track from my point about the politics at play here.

A community that is made up of strong connections and real relationships will survive a region's destruction, offsite forums or no offsite forums.

Well, you're obviously entitled to your opinion, but I am willing to give the tentatively and casually constructed governments of the very old regions at the dawn of time more credit than that. It was not as easy as it in those days to find new regions or find old friends.

[Blackbird]

I am simply amazed that a well known defender supporter of forum destruction would oppose this measure. While Blackbird might not give a crap about forum destruction except when his region of TPC was forced to apologize for its crimes and say that we weren't around back then. Many other players from the time period Blackbird states despise forum destruction and don't share in his whitewashing of history.

I was opposed to forum destruction when it first happened to DEN, and I remain opposed to it. We were never "forced" to apologize, but rather we did it of our own initiative, with a third-party observer from the Meritocracy observing our proceedings. The RLA's positions is continued in its report, and was an unambiguous condemnation of the tactic.

[Shizensky]

A community that is made up of strong connections and real relationships will survive a region's destruction, offsite forums or no offsite forums.

This has always been a weak argument. Do you remember what it took to build the community you're a part of, or what it took for you to feel like you're a part of it? If you really think about it, you probably don't. Real communities don't have a formula that leads to their creation, they just happen. Relationships grow organically, people aren't just the best of friends after a few minutes. Tight friendships will last a region or forum destruction, yes, but a community is more than just a few friends among the larger population. More relationships are forming and strengthening, and acts of destruction interfere with that growth.

Some of the friends might keep in contact, but the overall community is destroyed.

[Consular]

A community that is made up of strong connections and real relationships will survive a region's destruction, offsite forums or no offsite forums.

This has always been a weak argument. Do you remember what it took to build the community you're a part of, or what it took for you to feel like you're a part of it? If you really think about it, you probably don't. Real communities don't have a formula that leads to their creation, they just happen. Relationships grow organically, people aren't just the best of friends after a few minutes. Tight friendships will last a region or forum destruction, yes, but a community is more than just a few friends among the larger population. More relationships are forming and strengthening, and acts of destruction interfere with that growth.

Some of the friends might keep in contact, but the overall community is destroyed.

I'm inclined to agree with Cerian. A weak community would allow itself to be destroyed, a strong one would remain defiant and bounce back. It just takes leadership and determination.

Though I also think this point isn't overly relevant to the discussion at hand really.

[Solorni]

A community that is made up of strong connections and real relationships will survive a region's destruction, offsite forums or no offsite forums.

This has always been a weak argument. Do you remember what it took to build the community you're a part of, or what it took for you to feel like you're a part of it? If you really think about it, you probably don't. Real communities don't have a formula that leads to their creation, they just happen. Relationships grow organically, people aren't just the best of friends after a few minutes. Tight friendships will last a region or forum destruction, yes, but a community is more than just a few friends among the larger population. More relationships are forming and strengthening, and acts of destruction interfere with that growth.

Some of the friends might keep in contact, but the overall community is destroyed.

Having been subject to regional destruction albeit on a founder level, I also agree with Cerian.

[KaelThas Quilor]

A community that is made up of strong connections and real relationships will survive a region's destruction, offsite forums or no offsite forums.

This has always been a weak argument. Do you remember what it took to build the community you're a part of, or what it took for you to feel like you're a part of it? If you really think about it, you probably don't. Real communities don't have a formula that leads to their creation, they just happen. Relationships grow organically, people aren't just the best of friends after a few minutes. Tight friendships will last a region or forum destruction, yes, but a community is more than just a few friends among the larger population. More relationships are forming and strengthening, and acts of destruction interfere with that growth.

Some of the friends might keep in contact, but the overall community is destroyed.

I do remember. And the real community itself will survive. The members that aren't part of the actual community weren't part of the community anyway.

[Evil Wolf]

I was opposed to forum destruction when it first happened to DEN, and I remain opposed to it.

Shenanigans. You praised Grips, AKA TRF, as being one of your best spies and an amazing agent. You even did so in a public interview. Go ahead and dispute it so I can find the interview you yourself gave, Blackbird, and prove you a total liar not only then, but now as well.

[Blackbird]

I was opposed to forum destruction when it first happened to DEN, and I remain opposed to it.

Shenanigans. You praised Grips, AKA TRF, as being one of your best spies and an amazing agent. You even did so in a public interview. Go ahead and dispute it so I can find the interview you yourself gave, Blackbird, and prove you a total liar not only then, but now as well.

Grippsholm aka The Red Factions was one of my best spies and an amazing agent. I don't deny that. And I fully supported his actions in DEN, excepting the forum destruction. His was an incredibly useful operation in retarding invader activity, sowing dissent, and harvesting IP addresses of invaders and counter-intelligence. What I did not support was destroying the forum. Destroying his forum was done and the idea suggested to him, by Unistrut of the ADN, because he was pissed that the RLA wasn't sharing as much intelligence as he wanted. Unistrut threatened to "out" TRF, and suggested or it came up in discussion between them that if that was happening, TRF should just nuke the forum.

I was obviously opposed to this: why anyone would think I would destroy such a valuable asset as controlling the premier invader alliance's forum either thinks me very stupid, or is simply trying to score the political points that you and your ilk have been doing for years. I would like to think that my career running intelligence operations, as well the rest of my career belies the former. I am left with only the latter.

[Evil Wolf]

Oh, so I guess you only opposed TRF when he destroyed the Invaders forum, ignoring the fact that you edited the original announcement claiming credit for the Forum Destruction.

If you opposed the Forum Destruction so much, BB, why did you allow your name to be publicly attached to the article? I would like to think that if you really opposed the Forum Destruction you would have avoided having your name plastered all over the article that proudly announced the deed.

[Blackbird]

Oh, so I guess you only opposed TRF when he destroyed the Invaders forum, ignoring the fact that you edited the original announcement claiming credit for the Forum Destruction.

If you opposed the Forum Destruction so much, BB, why did you allow your name to be publicly attached to the article? I would like to think that if you really opposed the Forum Destruction you would have avoided having your name plastered all over the article that proudly announced the deed.

I didn't edit the article. TRF sent an article to me, which I didn't read, and published the article that you linked to. This was all covered quite extensively in the RLA's report on the matter.

[Onderkelkia]

The forum of Torino (which later became an LKE colony) was destroyed in November 2006 by Omnia Americana (its then president).

EuroSoviets (who by this time had taken over from Blackbird as RLAI Director) later confirmed that Omnia Americana was spying for him. EuroSoviets denied responsibility for ordering the destruction of the forum but, when challenged by a member of Torino regarding the matter, made the following statement:

I have no opinion. Om is not an RLA member and thus he can't be tried for this crime (we do view it as a crime) within the RLA. That said, I've witnessed the destruction by defenders of plenty of invader forums. It's a scorched earth tactic that is pretty effective in driving them out of the game. Anything that beats invaders is fine by me.

With an attitude like that, it is little wonder that one of his agents did as he did - assuming that one accepts that he did not actually sanction it.

It should be borne in mind that "Omnia Americana", the agent's name in Torino, was almost certainly a persona rather than the individual's actual identity.

Blackbird has assured us in relation to the destruction of the DEN forum that, while the RLA sanctioned the espionage, it was not responsible for the forum destruction. Putting aside the fact that the RLA only imposed expulsions (for laughably short periods) after the Invaders Army forum destruction incident (whereas The Red Factions surely should have been punished for destroying DEN's forum), the incidents in DEN and Torino illustrate a clear pattern: an agent reporting to the RLA Intelligence Director attains the leadership of an "invader" region, destroys the forum and the RLA denies ordering the destruction.

Apart from his comments following the destruction of the Torino forum by his agent, EuroSoviets also included for a period a line in the ASE's WFE about destroying invaders and their forums wherever they found them or words to that effect. Xha'dam, another very senior RLA and ASE member, has openly speculated about utilising "the old anti-forum missiles", before observing that "they" (presumably his intended targets) used ZetaBoards, as late as 2014.

Bearing in mind the events in Torino (all of which occurred well after the RLA's report on the Invaders Army forum destruction and in an operation personally overseen by EuroSoviets), the claims which EuroSoviets put on the ASE's WFE and Xha'dam's remark, the case against the ASE seems strong (although bearing in mind the lack of sanction imposed prior to the outrcry after the IA forum destruction, the case against the RLA leadership as a whole seems strong). It should further be noted that prior to an amendment, the RLA Intelligence guidelines permitted forum destruction with the director's authorisation. This is all suggestive of a culture in which significant members of the RLA regarded forum destruction as a permissible and legitimate tactic.