[Submitted] Liberate Haven

[Katalonua]

...Are you for real?

I mean, I'm for serious, are you for real?

You're only going on the possibility that he might have made an alternate WA nation to raid TSP during that time. You have no actual physical evidence to prove that. For all you know, he may have decided to drop from the WA because he was bored of receiving telegrams for helping the liberation effort. I know I received a few.

Furthermore, you're going to terrorise (oh, I'm sorry, "liberate") an entire region, for the potential actions of one player?

Nope, I'm doing it to open it up to active raiding. Again TSP is not the justification. And I haven't bothered checking the others because we all know that Haven was involved. Claims to the contrary are falling apart every time evidence comes forward.

Let's look at Haven. Hmm, seems Cravan is in it...after refounding his nation seven hours ago. So he was in there after you posted this, and therefore one of the main reasons you have for this only came back to NS and to Haven hours after this all started. That's one pile of bullshit sent for manure, let's see some other names.

Cravan has been there for years prior to his CTE. Check the history. I don't need to lie about this, and the worst part is that the Roleplayers know that I'm telling the truth. Huge numbers of them were involved.

But here's the problem: You want to raid Haven. You haven't made this a secret. Which means the same rule of mistrust applies to you. We don't want to see it raided, so we're very likely to be biased and will likely omit evidence that runs contrary to our interests.

You, however, do want to see it raided. So you're also likely to be very biased.

There is a good chance you know what really went down, but we can't take your word for it since you have admitted that raiding Haven is in your interests, thus, any evidence you may have that would run contrary to the interest might be excluded for your own gain. Just as many of the RPers might be acting out of their own interests.

[The Batorys]

Well, yeah. That too. I'm simply disagreeing that Mall made this thread to troll all the RPers. For one, it's hard to prove someone's intent and two, there's no point in accusing Mall of being a troll.

I just think it's better to attack his arguments for the 'Liberation' of Haven, such as your argument right there.

It doesn't matter if the intent was to troll the RP community or attempt to force the RP community into an aspect of NationStates that they have, vehemently and nearly universally, refused to be a part of since its inception.

Even if Haven did, at one point, make a single foray into the R/D game (which has not been proven in any way shape or form), they have stayed out of it since then. Using that as a justification to engage and dismantle one of the older and more iconic roleplay regions is shallow at best and, in my opinion, unbecoming of a moderator who should know better.

I agree.

Even if they did participate that one time, which as far as I can see, there still isn't proof that they did, that hardly means that they want to be involved in perpetuity.

You know what I assume if someone tries something once and then never participates in it afterwards again?

That they didn't like it and don't want to be a part of it.

[Ambroscus Koth]

We're not fucking playing. You are essentially playing rugby and then going and tackling someone in the audience.

It'd be an audience to a totally different game. It's more like tackling the runners on the track around the pitch.

We're all playing NationStates. Regional warfare exists and all of your nations exist in regions. These metaphors are ridiculous.

[Nierr]

Lots of RPers hate milograd and blame him for getting raiders involved with RP regions.

That hate is completely misplaced, and totally ignores the fact that raiders were targeting RP regions before Milograd was even a thing.

Hell, Haven was targeted for a liberation by raiders before Milograd the nation even existed. Haven was raided and griefed before Milograd's coup.

Anyone who blames Milograd for getting involved with RP regions is ignorant of history.

[Maltropia]

Nah, you're playing. You and your buddies are just making camp on the ^{edges of the} field and getting mad when someone trips over you ^{deliberately seeks out people who are doing their best not to participate in something they've been told time and again they don't have to participate in}.

Fixed that quote up for you.

[Kylarnatia]

...Are you for real?

I mean, I'm for serious, are you for real?

You're only going on the possibility that he might have made an alternate WA nation to raid TSP during that time. You have no actual physical evidence to prove that. For all you know, he may have decided to drop from the WA because he was bored of receiving telegrams for helping the liberation effort. I know I received a few.

Furthermore, you're going to terrorise (oh, I'm sorry, "liberate") an entire region, for the potential actions of one player?

Nope, I'm doing it to open it up to active raiding. Again TSP is not the justification. And I haven't bothered checking the others because we all know that Haven was involved. Claims to the contrary are falling apart every time evidence comes forward.

Okay, I'm going to break this down to just clearly demonstrate how full-blown absurd this is:

Nope, I'm doing it to open it up to active raiding.

Despite the fact they've all voiced their opinion want not to be involved? You - a moderator of all people - is going to force them into the R/D game even though they've said no? Outstanding.

I haven't bothered checking the others because we all know that Haven was involved.

Excellent detective work. Scotland Yard should employ you as a Chief Inspector.

"Well, there were five people at the scene of the crime. I've found the culprit, but lets just arrest all of them because they were clearly all involved."

Claims to the contrary are falling apart every time evidence comes forward.

Really? How'd you come to that conclusion? As it seems to me anyone from the roleplay community - hell, even members of the gameplay community - have yet to be convinced by your own argument. Your own post right here illustrates how you've failed to construct a valid case.

My verdict: 88 should be your lucky number.

[The Batorys]

Once again I would question how many of these roleplayers pouring in here to support Haven were themselves endorsing Milograd during the coup.

And... how many in this thread were endorsing Milograd?

I mean, we know you were in on the coup, but how many of the RPers here were?

I only even vaguely knew about Milo being involved with raiders. I only really know the specifics as a result of this very thread.


Because I'm a fucking RPer. I don't want to be involved with R/D shit.

[Roania]

Very few.

Lots of RPers hate milograd and blame him for getting raiders involved with RP regions.

My nation isn't even in the WA, because it would make no sense IC for a nation like mine to be in such an organization, because sovereignty.

You know that I know various RP'ers in here were in there right? So hearing certain people claim that they hate Milo and never get involved is really fascinating.

I'd just like to know why this particular player has decided that people should be forced to play the raiding game. I just don't get it. Shouldn't you, as a mod for the site, try to promote people's ability to use the site as they want and not be forced into something?

Shouldn't you also know better than to propose a target that, when it was last done, caused numerous moderation violations and flame wars? Just seems irresponsible and honestly just an attempt at trolling the members of Haven.

People don't get to flame their way out of aspects of the game.

And looking at that NSHistory you seem to love, the last record for him is December 2013. He's been CTE for nearly eight months and you thought now was the time to post this frankly bullshit excuse for a proposal?

And unlike you, I'll post my evidence; http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/histor ... tart=&end=

Old Father Vir is getting high blood pressure from the scent of bullshit.

What's your point? It CTE after the coup... it participated in the coup... longtime resident of haven... Just like I said.

I've never heard of Milograd, and I've been playing this game a lot longer than you. Had someone come up to me and told me to get involved in R&D because he wanted to launch some imaginary coup in a feeder region, I'd tell him to fuck off and call down the fires of hell upon his cause. I'd probably warn everyone about it just to rub salt in his wounds.

I'm involved in this solely because I loathe R&D, and its players. And I have to admit it's not much of a reason, but it's better than the reason you've proposed for starting this.

[Mini Miehm]

See, there we disagree.

The whole purpose of founders and passwords is to be able to opt-out of playing that aspect of NS.

As far as we are concerned, NS is RP. To raiders and defenders, it's R/D. Neither is more valid than the other, neither was necessarily intended from the beginning, as R/D rose out of quirks in the game mechanics and people going "we can use our nations like soldiers in armies and take over other regions!". RP rose out of people going "hey, we have nations, we can write about them them interacting with each other on these forums!"

We're not fucking playing. You are essentially playing rugby and then going and tackling someone in the audience.

Nah, you're playing. You and your buddies are just making camp on the field and getting mad when someone trips over you. We're all playing.

Founders can cease to exist. Passwords can be compromised. They're just temporary deterrents. Honestly I have no problem with how you decide to spend your time, I fancy myself some roleplaying as well, but I don't do it in a game where I know regional warfare exists and whine about the game mechanics that existed long before I started playing. Yes, raiding was an unintended consequence. It was not removed, so it's still part of the game. That's honestly all I'm saying.

I am explicitly not playing any of the gameplay stuff. As clearly as possible. I have zero involvement in this, beyond a strong insistence that it not be permitted to impact how I play and interact with my friends. You may raid and defend to your heart's content. Somewhere over there. Away from the people just trying to hang out. It's not exactly rocket surgery.

[Oseato]

People don't get to flame their way out of aspects of the game.

People get to op out of rping if they don't want to do it, yet we have to R/D because you feel like it. Wow what a great standard! Thanks moderator who CLEARLY respects and values the members of the site!

[Vetok]

Very few.

Lots of RPers hate milograd and blame him for getting raiders involved with RP regions.

My nation isn't even in the WA, because it would make no sense IC for a nation like mine to be in such an organization, because sovereignty.

You know that I know various RP'ers in here were in there right? So hearing certain people claim that they hate Milo and never get involved is really fascinating.

Hey, here's a thought...name them. Go on. I'm up all night doing other stuff so I've got all the time in the world.

And looking at that NSHistory you seem to love, the last record for him is December 2013. He's been CTE for nearly eight months and you thought now was the time to post this frankly bullshit excuse for a proposal?

And unlike you, I'll post my evidence; http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/histor ... tart=&end=

Old Father Vir is getting high blood pressure from the scent of bullshit.

What's your point? It CTE after the coup... it participated in the coup... longtime resident of haven... Just like I said.

One name. One. One name to justify fucking over an entire region? Pathetic.

[Ambroscus Koth]

It's a shame you've all been lied to over the years, being told you don't have to participate in gameplay, because it's functionally inaccurate. Can't help that, Maltropia.

I understand I don't have to target your group of players, Miehm. That's what makes it fun. I don't enjoy being told not to eat the forbidden fruit.

[Tim-Opolis]

My favorite part of this thread are all the people who deployed WA's to the TSP Coup claiming their innocence. This isn't an RP where you can just edit out your post and it never happened, kiddos. Gameplay has history records

[Roania]

It's a shame you've all been lied to over the years, being told you don't have to participate in gameplay, because it's functionally inaccurate. Can't help that, Maltropia.

I understand I don't have to target your group of players, Miehm. That's what makes it fun. I don't enjoy being told not to eat the forbidden fruit.

Case in point, if anyone's wondering.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Lots of RPers hate milograd and blame him for getting raiders involved with RP regions.

That hate is completely misplaced, and totally ignores the fact that raiders were targeting RP regions before Milograd was even a thing.

Hell, Haven was targeted for a liberation by raiders before Milograd the nation even existed. Haven was raided and griefed before Milograd's coup.

Anyone who blames Milograd for getting involved with RP regions is ignorant of history.

It is fair to point out though that TSP didn't help, especially when he got Haven involved.

Nope, I'm doing it to open it up to active raiding. Again TSP is not the justification. And I haven't bothered checking the others because we all know that Haven was involved. Claims to the contrary are falling apart every time evidence comes forward.
Cravan has been there for years prior to his CTE. Check the history. I don't need to lie about this, and the worst part is that the Roleplayers know that I'm telling the truth. Huge numbers of them were involved.

But here's the problem: You want to raid Haven. You haven't made this a secret. Which means the same rule of mistrust applies to you. We don't want to see it raided, so we're very likely to be biased and will likely omit evidence that runs contrary to our interests.

You, however, do want to see it raided. So you're also likely to be very biased.

There is a good chance you know what really went down, but we can't take your word for it since you have admitted that raiding Haven is in your interests, thus, any evidence you may have that would run contrary to the interest might be excluded for your own gain. Just as many of the RPers might be acting out of their own interests.

If Haven hadn't been involved in TSP then I would have chosen The Proletariat Coalition for this effort. TSP was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, in that while it is not by itself a huge thing or argument in my proposal, having it bolstered it just enough to make it work. I'm fine with opposition, no one is forced to support or agree.

You know that I know various RP'ers in here were in there right? So hearing certain people claim that they hate Milo and never get involved is really fascinating.

Hey, here's a thought...name them. Go on. I'm up all night doing other stuff so I've got all the time in the world.

What's your point? It CTE after the coup... it participated in the coup... longtime resident of haven... Just like I said.

One name. One. One name to justify fucking over an entire region? Pathetic.

I could show that every nation in Haven had their WA nation disappear during the coup and the dissenters here would claim that I can't know where their WA nation actually went. They've already claimed as much.

[Roania]

My favorite part of this thread are all the people who deployed WA's to the TSP Coup claiming their innocence. This isn't an RP where you can just edit out your post and it never happened, kiddos. Gameplay has history records

My favorite part is how you and Mall are accusing people of this without any proof. Another case in point.

Boy, you R&Ders really are the worst people.

[Feazanthia]

I feel it should be mentioned that this is expressly against the spirit of the Liberation game feature according to [violet], with a similar proposal against Haven used as an example.

So there's that.

[Roania]

That hate is completely misplaced, and totally ignores the fact that raiders were targeting RP regions before Milograd was even a thing.

Hell, Haven was targeted for a liberation by raiders before Milograd the nation even existed. Haven was raided and griefed before Milograd's coup.

Anyone who blames Milograd for getting involved with RP regions is ignorant of history.

It is fair to point out though that TSP didn't help, especially when he got Haven involved.

But here's the problem: You want to raid Haven. You haven't made this a secret. Which means the same rule of mistrust applies to you. We don't want to see it raided, so we're very likely to be biased and will likely omit evidence that runs contrary to our interests.

You, however, do want to see it raided. So you're also likely to be very biased.

There is a good chance you know what really went down, but we can't take your word for it since you have admitted that raiding Haven is in your interests, thus, any evidence you may have that would run contrary to the interest might be excluded for your own gain. Just as many of the RPers might be acting out of their own interests.

If Haven hadn't been involved in TSP then I would have chosen The Proletariat Coalition for this effort. TSP was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak, in that while it is not by itself a huge thing or argument in my proposal, having it bolstered it just enough to make it work. I'm fine with opposition, no one is forced to support or agree.

Hey, here's a thought...name them. Go on. I'm up all night doing other stuff so I've got all the time in the world.



One name. One. One name to justify fucking over an entire region? Pathetic.

I could show that every nation in Haven had their WA nation disappear during the coup and the dissenters here would claim that I can't know where their WA nation actually went. They've already claimed as much.

Alright, show me how Zepplin Manufacturers, who got me involved in this stupid debate in the first place, was involved in the TSP 'coup'. That's all I want. One name. Surely you can do it.

[Mini Miehm]

It's a shame you've all been lied to over the years, being told you don't have to participate in gameplay, because it's functionally inaccurate. Can't help that, Maltropia.

I understand I don't have to target your group of players, Miehm. That's what makes it fun. I don't enjoy being told not to eat the forbidden fruit.

So you're explicitly a troll. At leat you're honest about being here for the sole purpose of harassing others.

[The Batorys]

No it doesn't. Take it from someone who knows the author personally and knows his intentions.

It has nothing to do with a hierarchy.

Never mind the fact that game mechanics means that that hierarchy exists anyway.

I don't care about his intentions as you ascribe them to him. It's crap, and I'll say it's crap until my fingers fall off.

It totally does. It's about the ability of raiders to harass roleplayers at will.

Maybe we should gut the game mechanics then, so we can be left the fuck alone.

You know what?

Yes.

Fuck it.

If we have to destroy half the game to be left the goddamn fuck alone, then yeah, at this point, I'd support that.

We have asked nicely. Repeatedly. We've pleaded. All we want is to be left to RP in peace. Is that so fucking much to ask? We've been assured that having founders would make it so we could opt out of R/D, and that in their absence, passwords would do it.


But apparently that's now to be disregarded, so that people can come in and have their fun at our expense in a way we don't want to participate in.


So fuck it.

[Vetok]

It's a shame you've all been lied to over the years, being told you don't have to participate in gameplay, because it's functionally inaccurate. Can't help that, Maltropia.

I understand I don't have to target your group of players, Miehm. That's what makes it fun.

Nobody cares. Really. When Miehm and the others realise that it takes a minimum of effort on our part just to stop you fucking us over for the hell of it, they'll realise it was silly getting hot about it. In the end, you can do only what we let you.

Hey, here's a thought...name them. Go on. I'm up all night doing other stuff so I've got all the time in the world.

One name. One. One name to justify fucking over an entire region? Pathetic.

I could show that every nation in Haven had their WA nation disappear during the coup and the dissenters here would claim that I can't know where their WA nation actually went. They've already claimed as much.

Show us. You're hiding behind smoke and mirrors baby, and you're not a magician good enough to cover that.

[Oseato]

My favorite part of this thread are all the people who deployed WA's to the TSP Coup claiming their innocence. This isn't an RP where you can just edit out your post and it never happened, kiddos. Gameplay has history records

Ah the smug superiority of R/Ders. Never change guys!

[Minnysota]

1) Haven was involved in TSP. They had the embassy, embassies which were given in exchange for support. How many of you roleplayers who have flooded this thread were there too? More than a few, fun fact. You can play the victim all you want and feign ignorance of what happened, but to argue that Haven was uninvolved is simply lying. Getting that embassy with haven and concessions in the WFE to various RP regions were critical to gaining the support that allowed the 2013 coup to last ten days instead of only three. For those who complain that I was involved in the Coup of TSP: wouldn't that make me the resident expert on who was and was not involved?

Even if they were involved (and more than enough people have vehemently denied their involvement), that doesn't justify any of this. You really come off as if you're trying to abuse your powers to correct some personal grudge.

2) This is where I see a lot of confusion. The line regarding TSP is not a justification for the proposal. That line exists to serve as a rebuttal to a potential counterargument, it is not by itself a justification but rather seeks to undermine the justification for voting against. The other clauses justify the Liberation: namely that the activity generated by raiding it outweighs the "rights" of the natives to continue rotting behind the password. People keep touting the amazing history of Haven, but I'm the only one who is attempting to give it a future.

Well it's a shit counter-argument. Find a better reason for stripping a RP region of its PW so raiders can destroy it other than "I claim they were involved in TSP coup", especially when all I've heard is that you yourself were part of that raid.

3) There is nothing sneaky about this proposal. I say in the text that I want this to result in a raid of Haven. So the various people who are accusing me of lying or trying to be sneaky probably haven't actually read the text of the proposal.

You can keep saying that you aren't being sneaky and that people haven't read the text (we have and it's a pretty elementary piece of writing so its not hard to comprehend), but this has "personal grudge" written all over it to me.

4) Hey you can think whatever you want about raiding. If you disagree, then vote against. The SC Liberation feature exists to strip regions of their autonomy as the voters see fit. If the voters see fit in this case then that will happen to Haven.

This shouldn't even be up to vote. You're trying to strip a RP region of its password for a completely illegitimate reason and force it to participate in a part of a game that none of its members want.

Lastly please keep in mind that accusations of rulebreaking such as flaming, trolling, moderator abuse, etc, do not belong in this thread. They belong in the moderation forum. Obviously I will not be moderating any aspect of this thread, so posting the claims here won't do anything other than rile people up, so as a player I'd appreciate it if that was kept in mind.

People should duly report what they see wrong with this to the proper channels, but calling this out for something that seems pretty obvious isn't that unfair.

People are posting their opinion

[Roania]

I don't care about his intentions as you ascribe them to him. It's crap, and I'll say it's crap until my fingers fall off.

It totally does. It's about the ability of raiders to harass roleplayers at will.

Maybe we should gut the game mechanics then, so we can be left the fuck alone.

You know what?

Yes.

Fuck it.

If we have to destroy half the game to be left the goddamn fuck alone, then yeah, at this point, I'd support that.

We have asked nicely. Repeatedly. We've pleaded. All we want is to be left to RP in peace. Is that so fucking much to ask? We've been assured that having founders would make it so we could opt out of R/D, and that in their absence, passwords would do it.


But apparently that's now to be disregarded, so that people can come in and have their fun at our expense in a way we don't want to participate in.


So fuck it.

Sounds good to me.

[Cata Larga]

I don't care about his intentions as you ascribe them to him. It's crap, and I'll say it's crap until my fingers fall off.

It totally does. It's about the ability of raiders to harass roleplayers at will.

Maybe we should gut the game mechanics then, so we can be left the fuck alone.

You know what?

Yes.

Fuck it.

If we have to destroy half the game to be left the goddamn fuck alone, then yeah, at this point, I'd support that.

We have asked nicely. Repeatedly. We've pleaded. All we want is to be left to RP in peace. Is that so fucking much to ask? We've been assured that having founders would make it so we could opt out of R/D, and that in their absence, passwords would do it.


But apparently that's now to be disregarded, so that people can come in and have their fun at our expense in a way we don't want to participate in.


So fuck it.

Hear fucking hear.

I'm sick and tired of the R/D community finding any excuse, if not openly provoking the RP community, to kick our sandcastles.