NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Type 08

[Padnak]

Mortars in the 81mm range can be man packed fairly easily by two or more people right?

Easily? Probably not, certainly not with enough ammo to be useful.

Doable? Definitely, though you would probably have to do something to bring in more ammo.

Time to conscript some locals

Its for the defense of the nation

they must do their patriotic duty

[The Teutonic Republic]

Just make the missile bigger.

Air breathing engines are pointless, they max out at Mach 5 with current technology and the added dead weight and removes most of the benefits of higher ISP in the first stage. Nuclear propulsion is impractically expensive.

The air-breathing mode would just be for the missile's boost phase and would roughly half the amount of Lox the missile needs to carry. I was thinking for maximum efficiency and payload fraction (without going nuclear) a SSTO air augmented aerospike would be ideal as compared to conventional multi-stage ICBM the weight and size would be similar but the payload would be several times higher.

[Mitheldalond]

How well would a bunch of Hedgehog mortars work for clearing lanes through a naval minefield in WWII? How about TBF Avengers with depth charges?

[Mitheldalond]

Just make the missile bigger.

Air breathing engines are pointless, they max out at Mach 5 with current technology and the added dead weight and removes most of the benefits of higher ISP in the first stage. Nuclear propulsion is impractically expensive.

The air-breathing mode would just be for the missile's boost phase and would roughly half the amount of Lox the missile needs to carry. I was thinking for maximum efficiency and payload fraction (without going nuclear) a SSTO air augmented aerospike would be ideal as compared to conventional multi-stage ICBM the weight and size would be similar but the payload would be several times higher.

Ask yourself why your ideas have never been implemented (or even considered, for the most part) by any IRL nation. If they really were better than what we have in reality, then why haven't they been used?

[The Akasha Colony]

How well would a bunch of Hedgehog mortars work for clearing lanes through a naval minefield in WWII? How about TBF Avengers with depth charges?

Neither would work very well. You would need larger quantities of munitions than would be practical and much more time than conventional methods, and it would be less reliable.

[The Teutonic Republic]

The air-breathing mode would just be for the missile's boost phase and would roughly half the amount of Lox the missile needs to carry. I was thinking for maximum efficiency and payload fraction (without going nuclear) a SSTO air augmented aerospike would be ideal as compared to conventional multi-stage ICBM the weight and size would be similar but the payload would be several times higher.

Ask yourself why your ideas have never been implemented (or even considered, for the most part) by any IRL nation. If they really were better than what we have in reality, then why haven't they been used?

http://www.astronautix.com/lvs/gnom.htm

Edit: All the stuff I've proposed has been either directly based off or similar in concept to real-world concepts. Tons of stuff that would otherwise be superior to existing technology gets cancelled, abandoned, delayed, or isn't pursued heavily in the real world for political, monetary or doctrinal reasons.

[Mitheldalond]

How well would a bunch of Hedgehog mortars work for clearing lanes through a naval minefield in WWII? How about TBF Avengers with depth charges?

Neither would work very well. You would need larger quantities of munitions than would be practical and much more time than conventional methods, and it would be less reliable.

Okay then. What were conventional methods anyway?

[The Akasha Colony]

Neither would work very well. You would need larger quantities of munitions than would be practical and much more time than conventional methods, and it would be less reliable.

Okay then. What were conventional methods anyway?

It depends what type of mine you're sweeping.

Contact mines can be swept up with nets and via dredging. It's slow and laborious but contact mines became less common later on because they are also less effective than magnetic and acoustic mines.

Magnetic mines can be fooled by dragging a large electromagnet through the water (from a non-metallic hulled boat or an aircraft) or later via dragging two electrified lines between two different boats, detonating all mines between them. How powerful this has to be depends on the sensitivity of the mines in question.

Acoustic mines are actually vulnerable to nets and dredging, and mines of the era are also vulnerable to noisemaker decoys. But by the time these started showing up, more complex detonation schemes were being introduced that would only make them detonate after several passes, to hide their presence and make sweeping harder.

[The Kievan People]

The air-breathing mode would just be for the missile's boost phase and would roughly half the amount of Lox the missile needs to carry. I was thinking for maximum efficiency and payload fraction (without going nuclear) a SSTO air augmented aerospike would be ideal as compared to conventional multi-stage ICBM the weight and size would be similar but the payload would be several times higher.

It will not be "several times" higher. It may not even be higher at all.

1. Air augmented rockets function only over a limited speed range, the maximum contribution they can make to an ICBM which needs to reach speeds far beyond what they are capable of, is inherently limited.
2. Air augmented rockets have significantly more deadweight than conventional rockets and create significant drag, both of which eat away the theoretical advantage of lower ISP.
3. An ICBM using cryogenic fuels is not even worth considering as a weapon past the 1960s. If it cannot use storable propellants it is a worthless.

Edit: In the Soviet "Gnom" concept air-augmented ICBM the air breathing stage only contributed about 15% of the total delta-v, the rest was all rocket.

[Imperializt Russia]

Everyone is telling you that this is a supremely terrible idea, you do realize that, right?

If you're going to disregard the advice of the posters on this thread, why post is in this thread?

Not really. People were criticizing the idea of a massive multi-gigaton warhead as being excessive and unnecessary which is why I've decided to abandon it.

Orion drive is a needless way of launching nuclear strikes unless you're willing to subscribe to Orion navy. Chemical rocketry is sufficient.
Sufficiency is a concept much maligned on NS.

Orion's only useful application to my mind is interstellar travel.

[Mostrov]

http://www.chinasignpost.com/2015/08/02 ... combatant/

An interesting article, although perhaps more suited too the warships thread, concerning military procurement in China concerning its navy.

[Gallia-]

so scare

The rocket it has to carry and launch is 200 feet tall or so. The first stage also generates 1-2 million force-pounds of thrust, so it'll destroy the pad when launched. Cold launching it from a silo like an SLBM isn't an option for something that size, and even if it was the exhaust would fry a submarine at periscope depth.

The Odyssey works because it can tolerate having the crap blown out of it after a launch without loosing structural integrity.

again with these baseless assumptions

why are you assuming it has to be reusable

what if it's literally just a submarine launch pad, controlled by remote tether, and designed to be "expendable" because there's like 10 srbs lighting on top of it

[Velkanika]

(Image)

so scare

The rocket it has to carry and launch is 200 feet tall or so. The first stage also generates 1-2 million force-pounds of thrust, so it'll destroy the pad when launched. Cold launching it from a silo like an SLBM isn't an option for something that size, and even if it was the exhaust would fry a submarine at periscope depth.

The Odyssey works because it can tolerate having the crap blown out of it after a launch without loosing structural integrity.

again with these baseless assumptions

why are you assuming it has to be reusable

what if it's literally just a submarine launch pad, controlled by remote tether, and designed to be "expendable" because there's like 10 srbs lighting on top of it

I think I just felt my inner accountant killing themself in horror. Are you happy now?

[Padnak]

Any ideas for how I could prevent my entire air force getting destroyed within the first few hours of fighting?

My air force is pretty antiquated in terms of fighter aircraft and the hostile air force operates vastly superior aircraft all round, but my air force (unlike say the Iraqi airforce during the gulf war) does operate several airborne early warning aircraft and is supported by a fairly comprehensive system of ground based radars located on outlying islands (which are further supported by spotters located on civilian boats to try and lessen the likelihood that the radar sites would be destroyed by anti-radiation missiles). Most of my air forces fighter aircraft are based in hardened hangers or hangers dug into mountain sides-

Ideally I need my air force to last long enough for it to protect my bombers and strike aircraft as they attempt to attack the invading forces carriers and landing docks but my fear is that it will get swamped and destroyed during the opening stages of the invasion/ its runways and facilities will get destroyed

[Gallia-]

get better planes

and pilots

[Padnak]

get better planes

and pilots

-_-

The struggles of a poor country trying to make its way in the world

[The Empire of Pretantia]

get better planes

and pilots

-_-

The struggles of a poor country trying to make its way in the world

You know what's a good idea?

Not fighting at all.

[Gallia-]

the problem with air farces is that aircraft depreciate in capability super fast

luckily you can probably appeal to the socialist brotherhood for planes and pilots and IADS

[United Earthlings]

remember as this is a Corps/Army level fight

I don't remember that being stipulated.

From the PDF you posted {which was a good read btw}, first two words written after the title: Corps Plans. From there, I noticed that like me most of your Corps is composed of three divisions plus supporting independent brigades or in my case regiments attached to them. From that train of thought, I conclude your divisions unless in rare circumstances would fight as a team and not as individual units off by themselves. Thirdly and finally, take this as you will, but your divisions scare me and are the stuff of nightmares and there’s no way in hell that god forbid I had to send ground forces into your nation I would send a single lonely division. May take longer to mobilize and assembly, but I’d bring the whole sledgehammer worth of a Field Army-which would be between 3 or 4 Corps depending on total divisions per Corps.

Lastly, we already covered pretty well the divisional comparisons of our two nations minus the various tweeks I’ve been doing to my divisions since our discussion concluded. Still, the results are still skewed in your favor, but then your divisions are closer to their logistical base then mine would be requiring to be supported half a world away. Large manpower intensive divisions are at a slight disadvantage in that regard. On the flip side I can field more divisions overall for the same manpower requirements, which has its own advantages.

also lol airpower

The further that RHMG penetrates into the divisional/corps rear area, the more isolated it becomes from its own supporting corps/divisional/brigade assets while at the same time the inverse is happening as the RHMG becomes more exposed itself to the Commonwealth’s own Divisional/Corps assets such as air, artillery and missile fire.

What’s left of the RHMG encounters the forward elements of the three Armored Combat Battle-Groups that are converging on it. The commander of the RHMG now has a choice: A. Press ahead against an enemy of unknown strength and hope for the best that it can fight its way forward to victory. B. Flank said force and hope said force is not the main element. C. Fall back {delaying action}.

I think this is the only useful point. The RHMG is something of a suicide mission, I feel, as it can be quite easily cut off. But I am willing to trade the RHMG for a Division's rear area because if it passes through unchecked and the reserves are diverted to other battles, it will pretty much destroy everything. It's not a difficult task to shoot up essentially defenceless vehicles. In my view the correct choice of action for black is to immediately counter-attack the RHMG and destroy it. This leaves the Red commander without his exploitation assets and also leaves him at a subunit disadvantage (which you sort of identified but at a much higher, not-stipulated, level). At that point, with a fourth subunit, the Black commander can take the initiative.

Three things: 1. Depending on the amount of space to the rear, the Commonwealth tends to employ elaborate defense-in-depth schemes that can reach as far back as dozens of kilometers as the majority of my forces tend to be deployed behind the lines with only a light screening force up front to resist probing attacks not outright full borne offensives. 2. Combined with that fact and the fact that our definition of rear area is probably not the same, you would probably find it’s not essentially defenseless vehicles you’re trying to shoot up, but ones with the means to inflict hurt back. Depending on which division of mine you’re comparing, both of my divisions have their own reconnaissance battalions with the Armored Division of course packing a lot more bite not just with that reconnaissance battalion, granted it’s no RHMG, but then nothing is right that’s the whole point. Still considering one of its missions is reconnaissance-in-force, a whole other independent tank company packs a lot of firepower plus all those other tank killing goodies the battalion has. 3. Don’t need a division to counter-attack the RHMG to destroy it, that’s why the Commonwealth has invested so much into integrated joint service operations which includes heavy use of aerial assets all linked in real-time through the Commonwealth’s integrated computer networks. Pinpoint the general location of the RHMG, air task a squadron of A-10s flying on stand-by for CAS fitted to the brim with brimstones, engage RHMG beyond its effect range to return fire after all the newer model of brimstone has a nearly 75 kilometer range on fixed wing platforms, send some units to mop up what’s left of the RHMG as it’s no longer the threat it once was. No one can deny airpower is truly one of the greatest force multipliers out there.

LOL for airpower indeed.

As I covered before, but probably not as well last time, but it bears repeating. These are the key doctrinal differences between our two nations. Put Simply, you fight ground wars by massing a superiority of armoured forces and artillery which makes sense considering your geo-political situation. I fight naval and air wars by massing Naval Fleets and Airpower to project power beyond the effective borders of the Commonwealth.

Straight up ground game you win...
Straight up naval or air game I win...

It's where those two intersect that the real fun or headache depending on one's perception begins...

[Padnak]

You know what's a good idea?

Not fighting at all.

Neit, if the air force must die in the defense of the homeland then that is what must happen

I just want it to last long enough to get the bombers into strike range

[Crookfur]

Any ideas for how I could prevent my entire air force getting destroyed within the first few hours of fighting?

My air force is pretty antiquated in terms of fighter aircraft and the hostile air force operates vastly superior aircraft all round, but my air force (unlike say the Iraqi airforce during the gulf war) does operate several airborne early warning aircraft and is supported by a fairly comprehensive system of ground based radars located on outlying islands (which are further supported by spotters located on civilian boats to try and lessen the likelihood that the radar sites would be destroyed by anti-radiation missiles). Most of my air forces fighter aircraft are based in hardened hangers or hangers dug into mountain sides-

Ideally I need my air force to last long enough for it to protect my bombers and strike aircraft as they attempt to attack the invading forces carriers and landing docks but my fear is that it will get swamped and destroyed during the opening stages of the invasion/ its runways and facilities will get destroyed

At the opening it would be worth going all out for thier AWACS. Even if you don't kill them you are going to force them to be pulled back reducing thier coverage and perhaps forcing thier fighters to either sweep into non AWACS covered areas in which case you make like the raf lightnings and bounce them from below and behind thanks to your gci operators.
Again even if he doesn't want to play outside of his own AWACS coverage you've still forced him to pull his air umbrella back giving g you more more operating room and him less warning against strikes against his fleet assets.
Yes you'll lose a lot of assets going after his AWACS buts it's the only way for you gain a real advantage as with them out of the picture you suddenly have the better idea of the air picture.
He will of course go after yours too so you could afford to use them as bait to draw fighter elements into traps.

[Husseinarti]

Any ideas for how I could prevent my entire air force getting destroyed within the first few hours of fighting?

My air force is pretty antiquated in terms of fighter aircraft and the hostile air force operates vastly superior aircraft all round, but my air force (unlike say the Iraqi airforce during the gulf war) does operate several airborne early warning aircraft and is supported by a fairly comprehensive system of ground based radars located on outlying islands (which are further supported by spotters located on civilian boats to try and lessen the likelihood that the radar sites would be destroyed by anti-radiation missiles). Most of my air forces fighter aircraft are based in hardened hangers or hangers dug into mountain sides-

Ideally I need my air force to last long enough for it to protect my bombers and strike aircraft as they attempt to attack the invading forces carriers and landing docks but my fear is that it will get swamped and destroyed during the opening stages of the invasion/ its runways and facilities will get destroyed

build a bunch of bunkers

[Padnak]

Throwing in ground based SAMs can't hurt either eh? I'm thinking that throwing my best fighters against their awacs and my crappier aircraft as screens for my bombers is probably the best way to go about it-

your suggestion sounds like a pretty good plan given how limited my resources are

build a bunch of bunkers

[Gallia-]

Any ideas for how I could prevent my entire air force getting destroyed within the first few hours of fighting?

My air force is pretty antiquated in terms of fighter aircraft and the hostile air force operates vastly superior aircraft all round, but my air force (unlike say the Iraqi airforce during the gulf war) does operate several airborne early warning aircraft and is supported by a fairly comprehensive system of ground based radars located on outlying islands (which are further supported by spotters located on civilian boats to try and lessen the likelihood that the radar sites would be destroyed by anti-radiation missiles). Most of my air forces fighter aircraft are based in hardened hangers or hangers dug into mountain sides-

Ideally I need my air force to last long enough for it to protect my bombers and strike aircraft as they attempt to attack the invading forces carriers and landing docks but my fear is that it will get swamped and destroyed during the opening stages of the invasion/ its runways and facilities will get destroyed

build a bunch of bunkers

theyd just be blowed up

iraq shows what happens hwen you do that

[Triplebaconation]

Not really. People were criticizing the idea of a massive multi-gigaton warhead as being excessive and unnecessary which is why I've decided to abandon it.

Orion drive is a needless way of launching nuclear strikes unless you're willing to subscribe to Orion navy. Chemical rocketry is sufficient.
Sufficiency is a concept much maligned on NS.

Orion's only useful application to my mind is interstellar travel.

Orion is actually really only useful if you're setting up massive orbital infrastructure. Sure Orion drives are real proposals. So are astrochickens. You're probably better off with the chickens.

Orion drives have a certain appealing brute simplicity (the concept itself predates Tsiolkovsky's major works), but the political problems so easily dismissed by their proponents are actually technical. Propelling thousands of tons into space with an untestable drive involving hundreds of nuclear weapons presents enormous technical issues, most likely far more than a more conventional rocket. The enormous political will required to perfect the technology in turn requires a compelling reason to place several thousand tons into orbit. There wasn't one in reality.

If that political will is handwaved into existence like a Dragomerian supersonic zeppelin, your nation is no longer in "mainline" NS. It's a 50s Disney movie. An Orion battleship is useless as a deterrent (deterrence, btw, is probably a myth, even in the real world) if it's kept on the ground, and once it's launched into space, it's up there more or less for good. Once you start developing the orbital facilities required to support them, pretty soon you're not even a recognizable modern nation--you're von Braun fantasyland.

NEVERTHELESS, Orion battleships are a guaranteed NS war-ender. Here's how they would inevitably play out:

Dumbanddumberstan announces a policy to exterminate its Inuit population. Perryrhodanistan takes exception to this. Not only is Perryrhodanistan a champion of Inuit rights, it has a fleet of Orion battleships. It promptly begins to rain down nuclear fire on Dumbanddumberstan, who immediately deploys the failproof SDI system every NS nation possesses simply by being a NS nation--accusations of GODMODDING. Perryrhodanistan attempts to tediously explain the finer points of the Orion drive, but Dumbanddumberstan refuses to surrender! Tensions rise until Dumbanddumberstan calls Perryrhodanistan a poophead. A passing gameside mod ( ) bans Dumbanddumberstan and the war is over.

The 15% air-breathing delta-v Kiev mentioned for Gnom is hugely significant if your rocket is small enough to be called Gnom. For increasing the throw weight of larger ICBMs his objections apply.

After several months of this I think we can all agree United Earthlings has the superior doctrine. Questers has foolishly put his up in some detail for all to examine. United Earthlings can quickly adapt his vague concepts to counter its finer points, thus always seizing the initiative. 微乎微乎 至于无形 神乎神乎 至于无声 故能为敌之司命