NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Type 08

[EsToVnIa]

The Finnish soldiers who operated Lahti AT rifles were true men.

Can a modern anti-materiel rifle destroy a transport helicopter in flight?

Probs.

just shoot the rotors

it works in dayz all the time

[Imperializt Russia]

The Finnish soldiers who operated Lahti AT rifles were true men.

Can a modern anti-materiel rifle destroy a transport helicopter in flight?

AM rounds will penetrate and damage vital components which may include fuel lines, rotor heads, manifolds, pilots etc.
So, yes, possibly.

[Husseinarti]

Probs.

just shoot the rotors

it works in dayz all the time

No in BF4 I always shot the pilot and stole it.

[Tulacia]

How effective are modern HESH shells? I'm still debating the use of a smoothbore or rifled gun, and the only benefit to a rifled gun seems to be the purpose of HESH.

HESH is still effective but has largely been replaced by HEAT and APFSDS. HESH doesn't work so well against modern armor because of the multiple layers and spacing used in modern tank armor. Less modern armor, and vehicles (or buildings) with less sophisticated vehicles will also be more susceptible.

Isn't HEAT not very effective either because of ERA? I thought HESH was basically a better HEAT shell, functioning like one but isn't ineffectuated by ERA.

So in the modern era HESH pretty much functions as a normal HE round.

[Imperializt Russia]

HESH is still effective but has largely been replaced by HEAT and APFSDS. HESH doesn't work so well against modern armor because of the multiple layers and spacing used in modern tank armor. Less modern armor, and vehicles (or buildings) with less sophisticated vehicles will also be more susceptible.

Isn't HEAT not very effective either because of ERA? I thought HESH was basically a better HEAT shell, functioning like one but isn't ineffectuated by ERA.

So in the modern era HESH pretty much functions as a normal HE round.

ERA degrades the effectiveness of all munitions. This is true of basically any countermeasure - special armour, composites, cages.

[Spirit of Hope]

HESH is still effective but has largely been replaced by HEAT and APFSDS. HESH doesn't work so well against modern armor because of the multiple layers and spacing used in modern tank armor. Less modern armor, and vehicles (or buildings) with less sophisticated vehicles will also be more susceptible.

Isn't HEAT not very effective either because of ERA? I thought HESH was basically a better HEAT shell, functioning like one but isn't ineffectuated by ERA.

So in the modern era HESH pretty much functions as a normal HE round.

OK basics of shells.

HE= High Explosive, just a shell filled with explosives. Can have various different ways to detonate (proximity, contact)

HESH= High Explosive Squashed Head, the shell impacts the target and the explosives spread out across the surface of the target before detonation. Works by sending a shock wave through the target causing the inside to splinter.

HEAT= High Explosive Anti Tank, the shell is filled with high explosives and a cone of metal. Detonates at a pre set distance away from the target, where the cone of metal is converted into a "spear" of plasma that punches through the armor of the target.

APFSDS=Armor Piercing Fin Stabilized Discarded Sabot. A pointy bit of metal going very fast. Kills things by just going really fast through the armor.

ERA =Explosive Reactive Armor, two plates of metal with explosives sandwiched in between. When ERA is hit by an incoming shell (of any variety) hits it detonates the explosives, which pushes the outer plate into the oncoming projectile disrupting it and making the armor of the vehicle "thicker"

HESH will set off ERA. HESH is probably more disrupted by ERA than HEAT, especially as there are some tricks that allow HEAT to defeat ERA.

[Imperializt Russia]

HESH won't set off ERA, it has a very low impact velocity.

[Spirit of Hope]

HESH won't set off ERA, it has a very low impact velocity.

Really? I figured the explosion of the HESH warhead would detonate the ERA.

[Imperializt Russia]

HESH won't set off ERA, it has a very low impact velocity.

Really? I figured the explosion of the HESH warhead would detonate the ERA.

ERA is insensitive for basically this reason. It's another surface and set of material boundaries for the shockwave to transit, though.

[Mitheldalond]

IIRC from what Nachmere said awhile back, HESH shells will only cause spalling on a plate a maximum of 1.5 times the diameter of the shell. So a 120mm could only cause spalling on a 180mm thick plate at best. Which basically would make every modern tank completely immune to them.

Also, I have at last returned from my long exile to the land of unending homework and finals.

[Husseinarti]

IIRC from what Nachmere said awhile back, HESH shells will only cause spalling on a plate a maximum of 1.5 times the diameter of the shell. So a 120mm could only cause spalling on a 180mm thick plate at best. Which basically would make every modern tank completely immune to them.

Also, I have at last returned from my long exile to the land of unending homework and finals.

Just when the thread was almost getting better.

[EsToVnIa]

At least there's no swords here

[Imperializt Russia]

IIRC from what Nachmere said awhile back, HESH shells will only cause spalling on a plate a maximum of 1.5 times the diameter of the shell. So a 120mm could only cause spalling on a 180mm thick plate at best. Which basically would make every modern tank completely immune to them.

Also, I have at last returned from my long exile to the land of unending homework and finals.

Many Russian tanks have side plates well under 100mm in thickness, admittedly with composites sandwiched in there somewhere.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

At least there's no swords here

I will eat your unhappiness like the black stuff on toast.

[Bumfrakistan]

In order to achieve a 1 man to 2 women ratio, we fight endless wars.

Well, that's one way of doing it... but then, your economy must be in shambles from the endless damage and destruction these wars cause. So Bumfrackistan is a Third World country, then (or worse)?

And have you taken this into account when it comes to army size (by, say, reducing the size of your armed forces by ⅓)?

we have the economy of 1945 Japan.

One third of all German males served in the Nazi armed forces at one point in time.

8% of all French males died in World War One.

[Tulacia]

Well, that's one way of doing it... but then, your economy must be in shambles from the endless damage and destruction these wars cause. So Bumfrackistan is a Third World country, then (or worse)?

And have you taken this into account when it comes to army size (by, say, reducing the size of your armed forces by ⅓)?

we have the economy of 1945 Japan.

One third of all German males served in the Nazi armed forces at one point in time.

8% of all French males died in World War One.

"economy of 1945 Japan"

So, in other words, really terrible.

[Velkanika]

Well, that's one way of doing it... but then, your economy must be in shambles from the endless damage and destruction these wars cause. So Bumfrackistan is a Third World country, then (or worse)?

And have you taken this into account when it comes to army size (by, say, reducing the size of your armed forces by ⅓)?

we have the economy of 1945 Japan.

Well, at least you admit your economy sucks.

[United Marxist Nations]

we have the economy of 1945 Japan.

Well, at least you admit your economy sucks.

Really tempted to put that in Funny Quotes thread.

[The Kievan People]

Will IRST make a good early warning sensor for an Active Protection System ? range measurement however is provided by a radar.

SLID

The two issues I have found in the literature are:
1. Single band IR sensors have trouble separating targets from the background against ground clutter, especially solar reflections which appear as targets heated to the temperature of the sun. Unlike radar there is no effective mathematical model for predicting infrared clutter and the performance of clutter suppressing algorithms depends entirely on the specific algorithm used.
2. Ambient heating can reduce the performance of IR sensors in hot climates. According to Israeli scientists armoured vehicles exteriors are routinely heated to 50 or 60 degrees Celsius by the sun, and this negatively impacts the performance of IR warning sensors attached to the vehicle.

The general consensus is that multi-band sensors that can exploit spectral contrast between the signatures of interest and clutter will perform best. Two-colour MWIR sensors that exploit the CO2 absorption band are particularly good at suppressing solar reflections. IRL there has been considerable interest in ultra-narrowband sensors that exploit emission lines specific to certain phenomenon of interest, such as chemicals found in some propellant charges. This would be a bit problematic on a general purpose IRST though.

Currently there are a number of warning systems which incorporate SWIR and LWIR or MWIR. SWIR is particularly useful for detecting plumes and muzzle flashes.

[Zeinbrad]

So me and a friend are making an RP about a Soviet invasion of the US (during a Cold War gone hot scenario) and I just written up the Soviets naval ORBAT, thoughts?

Admiral Gorshkov Task Force
Commander-Admiral Vladimir Kasatonov
One Kiev-Class Aircraft Carrier-Admiral Gorshkov.
One Kirov-Class Battlecruiser-Admiral Ushakov.
Two Kresta II-Class Cruisers (anti-submarine)-Kronstadt and Admiral Isakov.
Five Udaloy-Class Destroyers (anti-submarine)-Vice-Admiral Kulakov, Marshal Shaposhnikov, Admiral Levchenko, Admiral Vinogradov, Admiral Panteleyev,
Seven Krivank-Class Frigates,
Ten Grisha-Class Corvettes-

Kiev Task Force.
Commander-Admiral Vladimir Alexeyev.
One Kiev-Class Aircraft Carrier-Kiev.
Two Kresta II-Class Cruisers-Admiral Markov, Marshall Khabarovsk.
Five Udaloy-Class Destroyers-Severmonsk, Admiral Tributs, Admiral Zakharov, Udaloy, Admiral Kharlamov.
Seven Krivank-Class Frigates-
Ten Grisha-Class Corvettes.

Submarines
Echo Class Submarine-Cruise Missile
Tango-Class-Conventional attack.
Oscar-Class-Cruise Missile.
K-1 Echo Class Submarine-
K-131 Echo Class Submarine-
B-515 Tango-Class.
K-266 "Orel" Oscar-Class.
K-141 "Kursk" Oscar Class.

[Rupudska]

we have the economy of 1945 Japan.

Well, at least you admit your economy sucks.

He said 1945 Japan. What economy?

[Bumfrakistan]

we have the economy of 1945 Japan.

Well, at least you admit your economy sucks.

http://ww2-weapons.com/History/Production/Japan/

[Licana]

Well, at least you admit your economy sucks.

http://ww2-weapons.com/History/Production/Japan/

Yeah, that's a pretty shit economy there.

[Velkanika]

Well, at least you admit your economy sucks.

http://ww2-weapons.com/History/Production/Japan/

Yea, those figures are absolutely awful. Raw materials alone sums this up perfectly:

Annual strategic raw material production (m. metric tons)	1939	1940	1941	1942	1943	1944	1945
Coal	?	?	?	61.3	60.5	51.7	11.0
Ore	?	?	?	7.4	6.7	6.0	0.9
Steel	?	?	?	8.0	8.8	6.5	0.8
Aluminium (in 1,000 metric tons - especially important for aircraft production)	?	?	?	103	141	110	7

[The Kievan People]

Can a modern anti-materiel rifle destroy a transport helicopter in flight?

Very unlikely unless the helicopter is hovering or flying very slowly.

A hit to a vital component will bring it down. But it would probably take a couple hundred or a couple thousand rounds to guarantee a hit to a vital component, on average. Not a problem if you have a quad AAA mount of 20mm autocannons, but a big problem if you have a semi-automatic rifle with a 5-10 round magazine and no anti-aircraft tripod.

Small arms fire is a threat to helicopters in aggregate, a lot of guys on the ground with a lot of guns, but not in isolation.