Main Military Weapon of Your Country, Type-9 [Read OP pl0x]

[Benomia]

Also any basic data?

I already have an entire IC history to it, but data isn't as plentiful.

7.62x25mm Tokerev+P (military designation .30 TTok), straight blowback operated, single action. Other than that, no.

[Aqizithiuda]

The reports I have read were nothing short of eye opening, as well as being possibly the most interesting thing I have seen since a ballistic cast of a V.L.D. bullet a month or two ago.

Presenting:

4.6x30 H&K, 5.7x28mm FN, and why 9x19 is not going away.


Let's start at the beginning.

At the end of the 1980s (1989-1990 area I believe), NATO issued a request for a small arm offering armor penetrating qualities in a "Personal Defense Weapon" (PDW) (See: Doc. D296, NATO). The two big Western European firearms manufacturing companies, FN and H&K responded to the request. FN had already been experimenting with smaller 5mm caliber weapons, and had a much larger dedicated research and development team than H&K did at the Time. This gave them a clearcut advantage, and 5.7x28 came to life in 1991. The round was put though the ringer but did end up being used in great deal by many tactical teams, SF soldiers, police forces, and soldiers In normal military units. It came under some pretty heavy scrutiny due to the poor terminal performance of the round when not penetrating armor, and even to this day it still suffers that same reputation. In 1999, a push was made to make 5.7x28mm FN a standard NATO round.

Around the same time, H&K introduced their PDW round, the 4.6x30H&K. 8 years late to the party, H&K showed up drunk, angry, and driving a police cruiser that was reported stolen about a month ago two counties over. Germany took to the native companies 4.6x30, with Britain jumping in the band wagon shortly after. Britain retained the 5.7x28 round, but still utilized the smaller 4.6x30. As standardization was pushed though, Germany opted to give NATO the middle finger. The standardization was stopped, and to this day has not been pushed though.

This sparked a new lot of trials. The initial trials declared 5.7 a clearcut superior round, while testing by H&K announced 4.6 a far superior caliber. The trials were carried out by ETBS in France in 2002, compounded of 22 major tests. These included: Ballistic gel, body armor penetration, maximum effective range, energy retention, and overall accuracy. In nearly every trial, the 5.7x28 came put on top, offering a stated 27% more effectiveness over the 4.6x30mm H&K and an 11% more effective ratio on armored targets. I have found a variety of different tests that give similar numerical values (Highest against soft: 36% increase over 4.6, lowest 14%. Armor: 22%, 8%.) to 5.7x28 over 4.6x30. Overall, the 5.7x28 preforms a 17.8% better than 4.6x30 in both armor and tissue.

Now, if you have been here since MMW 6 (I believe that's when I came around) and 7, you know my feelings, as well as a slew of other professionals on the subject* of the 5.7x28mm (I consider it to be nothing more than a .22 WMR +P Basically). The 5.7x28 typically penetrates well, but offers very little energy dump, and often fails to expand. Those that do expand offer little advantage over the 9x19 NATO, and the 9x19 that does expand or fragment outclasses the 5.7 in nearly every way. The designers clearly anticipated this, and gave the 5.7x28 a center of weight behind the geometrical median point, allowing the bullet to tumble. This tumble effect however is minimal all too often. The 5.7 offers very little soft tissue crush cavity and a small temporary stretch cavity on soft targets, effectively making it a similar profile to .22WMR (I have a comparison picture somewhere)It has a low overall surface area of contact vs. The larger 9x19mm. 5.7 crushes a smaller surface area, even when in full yaw it only SLIGHTLY crushes more than 9x19.


Simply put: 5.7x28mm offers a poor terminal performance. So what about 4.6x30? As I outlined before, 4.6x30 offered no more effective terminal performance when compared to 5.7x28, offering no better armor penetration or soft tissue damage than the 5.7x28. This, as one might note, makes it basically outclassed in nearly every area vs. 5.7. A nation that uses 5.56 will have no issue producing 5.7, due to similarities in the rounds basic manufacturing process. Assembly lines require little reworking in order to begin producing 5.7x28mm. The 4.6 does. 5.7 also delivers a lower recoil impulse to the operator, as well as having less barrel wear on the weapon.

Now, why did I say "Why 9x19 isn't going anywhere"?
because it isn't, and it preforms better than both of these rounds. In armor penetrating versions, 9x19 outclasses and outperforms both of these rounds in armor penetrative ability inside of 50m, and offers a greater wound profile and terminal effect than both rounds.

This all said, 5.7x28 does have its pros: Its armor penetrating abilities are very good at distances further than the 9x19, its typically considered very controllable, and its decently accurate.
4.6x30mm also has its market, but what it is I am not sure.

In summary: 5.7x28 was made to penetrate body armor and preforms much better than 4.6x30, which is not saying much as 5.7 is a very poor preforming round. Both have their market and I assume both are here to stay, and we will not see them to go away any time soon. 9x19 outpreforms both inside of 50m, and most likely out to 100m it is roughly on par.

*I do not consider myself a professional

I'll be honest and say that I expected the HK to do better than that. Still, that was an interesting, informative post. Thanks!

Because I had no idea where else this could possibly go.

Need to defend a whole island/country? Fordorsia's got ya covered.
(Image)

Details: http://airborneleaf.deviantart.com/art/Fordorsia-Island-Defense-Cannon-Mk-3-371452252?ga_submit_new=10%253A1368470644&ga_type=edit&ga_changes=1&ga_recent=1

Lulzy, impractical and all kinds of awesome.

Damn... I was really hoping that the 4.6mm would fare better. Oh well.

So,
Thompson SMG chambered in 7.92x25mm for WWII military.
Y/N?

Go Owens, laste war style Austen or Schmeisser, the Thompson was way too freakin' prone to catastrophic failures in the field.


Also, I made a buck n' ball shell for my 50mm grenade launcher;

Once again we have scarily similar opinions .

I like the buck and ball shell!

My notanm1911 using API blowback for best machining pistolololol, yes/yes?

No. API in a pistol is ridiculous.

[Boer Republics (Ancient)]

(Image)
Mr. Bond is upset with the lack of Walther PPK and .380 ACP pistols on this, the 380th page.

Just to spite you

That is absolutely horrifying. American women should not be allowed to do such things to a firearm.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

Slide needs to be a bit bigger, and the grip could stand to be a bit more slanted. That or you'll need to make the slide and part of the frame hang off the back.

TT-33 says Hai.
Seems like the issue to me is that the Grip is just a awkward length that's all.. Otherwise beno you have made an Massive Improvement since my last comments to you, well done sir.
Also any basic data?

Yep. Nothing behind the grip here. Nothing at all.

[Benomia]

TT-33 says Hai.
Seems like the issue to me is that the Grip is just a awkward length that's all.. Otherwise beno you have made an Massive Improvement since my last comments to you, well done sir.
Also any basic data?

Yep. Nothing behind the grip here. Nothing at all.

Note how the pointy bit behind the grip almost exactly matches mine, and how the slide doesn't go back that far (compared to the TT).

[Black Hand]

TT-33 says Hai.
Seems like the issue to me is that the Grip is just a awkward length that's all.. Otherwise beno you have made an Massive Improvement since my last comments to you, well done sir.
Also any basic data?

Yep. Nothing behind the grip here. Nothing at all.

TT-33 says Hai.
Seems like the issue to me is that the Grip is just a awkward length that's all.. Otherwise beno you have made an Massive Improvement since my last comments to you, well done sir.
Also any basic data?

Yep. Nothing behind the grip here. Nothing at all.

I was referring to the Grip slant I mean look at that thing.

essentially a piston driven m16 in 300 blackout

go with the HK 416 it looks like an M4, sounds like and M4, and handles like an M4, but won't jam like an M4. Just use either the D16.5RS or D20RS variants so you got a bit more barrel length and voila you've got an excellent Rifle.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

Yep. Nothing behind the grip here. Nothing at all.

Look at the slant of the handle. There has to be enough room somehow for the hammer spring to fit.

@ Black, the issue is it needs one solution or the other.

[San-Silvacian]

Just to spite you

That is absolutely horrifying. American women should not be allowed to do such things to a firearm.

[Nua Corda]

The only blowback pistol I know of is the hi-point, which is hilariously bulky as a result.



Because 20% improvement in ballistic performance < thirdy-caliburr bullertz

Oh look. I didn't do what you said and you're now butthurt.

Just an average day with Corda.

Looks like someone can't handle the taste of his own medicine.

[Benomia]

(Image)

Look at the slant of the handle. There has to be enough room somehow for the hammer spring to fit.

@ Black, the issue is it needs one solution or the other.

All right, all right, will adjust.

[Benomia]

That is absolutely horrifying. American women should not be allowed to do such things to a firearm.

[Fordorsia]

Because I had no idea where else this could possibly go.

Need to defend a whole island/country? Fordorsia's got ya covered.
(Image)

Details: http://airborneleaf.deviantart.com/art/Fordorsia-Island-Defense-Cannon-Mk-3-371452252?ga_submit_new=10%253A1368470644&ga_type=edit&ga_changes=1&ga_recent=1

Lulzy, impractical and all kinds of awesome.

Not when it can reach and cripple Ulfr-Reich with several shots.

When you can hurt something like Ulfr-Reich, impracticality goes home and stays quiet.

[Fordorsia]

And you all wonder why I try to fight heresy so much.

[Black Hand]

(Image)

Look at the slant of the handle. There has to be enough room somehow for the hammer spring to fit.

@ Black, the issue is it needs one solution or the other.

I agree I was just saying that the T-33 or the 1911 is what it should be based on grip angle wise. If you want the straight grip ( I don't recommend it) then you need to have overhang. Also My lets convert a Gshg 7.62 into random other calibers seems to be most amusing how bout an 14.5X115 (Puz suggested a 20mm I wanted a 9.3 and this seems like a good compromise)
EDIT: @Fordosia I agree that this is heresy the most feminine thing that should be done to a rifle is name it Charlene......

[Premislyd]

(Image)

Poor AK-47

[Boer Republics (Ancient)]

Y'all need to use some spoilers. Those pink monstrosities make my head hurt.

[San-Silvacian]

Oh look. I didn't do what you said and you're now butthurt.

Just an average day with Corda.

Looks like someone can't handle the taste of his own medicine.

Oh look. I didn't do what you said and you're now butthurt.

Just an average day with Corda.

Pretty much explains it. I might be wrong, but I've never gotten on people for using calibers like 7.62, 5.45 and such because I don't need my bullets go 210000000000000000000000000000 meters at 20000000000000000000000000 feet per second.

I might just say fuck it and go back to 5.45x39mm since its light as fuck. Just make sure to hand out AP or +P like candy.

[Black Hand]

(Image)

Poor AK-47

NYET IS NOT OF SYSTEMA KALASHNIKOVA GLORY IS TOY OF PIG DOG WHORE.

[Premislyd]

Poor AK-47

NYET IS NOT OF SYSTEMA KALASHNIKOVA GLORY IS TOY OF PIG DOG WHORE.

AK-47 is a Kalashnikov System

or has "AK" changed meanings in the passed few minutes :V

[Black Hand]

NYET IS NOT OF SYSTEMA KALASHNIKOVA GLORY IS TOY OF PIG DOG WHORE.

AK-47 is a Kalashnikov System

or has "AK" changed meanings in the passed few minutes :V

1. It looks like a AKM that has Been tortured.
2. talk to Spree about the "AK-47"
3. was of IVAN impersonation
4. It looks like shit.

[Premislyd]

AK-47 is a Kalashnikov System

or has "AK" changed meanings in the passed few minutes :V

1. It looks like a AKM that has Been tortured.
2. talk to Spree about the "AK-47"
3. was of IVAN impersonation
4. It looks like shit.

1. Looks like a pretty nice AK-47
2. AK-47 has it's own wikipedia page
3. Needs work
4. See "1"

[San-Silvacian]

1. It looks like a AKM that has Been tortured.
2. talk to Spree about the "AK-47"
3. was of IVAN impersonation
4. It looks like shit.

1. Looks like a pretty nice AK-47
2. AK-47 has it's own wikipedia page
3. Needs work
4. See "1"

AK-47 is a blanket term used the Soviets and later, CIA, for the first series of prototypes and early production model AKs. The AKM is the best known AK and is commonly called an AK-47 because of the CIA and Soviet blanket term.

So, no. gtfo.

[Premislyd]

1. Looks like a pretty nice AK-47
2. AK-47 has it's own wikipedia page
3. Needs work
4. See "1"

AK-47 is a blanket term used the Soviets and later, CIA, for the first series of prototypes and early production model AKs. The AKM is the best known AK and is commonly called an AK-47 because of the CIA and Soviet blanket term.

So, no. gtfo.

But now you ruined it for taking it seriously, thx

[Benomia]

Looks like crap now, but is the best I good clo.

[Nirvash Type TheEND]

1. It looks like a AKM that has Been tortured.
2. talk to Spree about the "AK-47"
3. was of IVAN impersonation
4. It looks like shit.

2. AK-47 has it's own wikipedia page

WHICH CLARIFIES AK TYPE 1-3. DO YOU EVEN LIFT READ?