Your Nation's Air Force [MKI]

[Marquesan]

Would it be feasible to make an NS F-117 an actual stealth fighter comparable to the F-22 in its time?

Calling the F-117 a "fighter" is a misnomer, anyway. It was never designed for air-to-air combat, was never capable of supersonic flight, could only carry two weapons internally and lacks a cannon. It really has a pretty terrible aerodynamic coefficient, carries no onboard radar whatsoever, is limited to 5,000 lbs. of ordinance, cannot make use of an afterburner...

It is the product of the cutting edge of 1970's computer-aided design, but subsequent designs like the F-22 Raptor are far more advanced, carry much more ordinance, can actually carry a radar, can travel beyond the speed of sound...

F-117A is only useful as a tactical first-strike aircraft in areas where you have no expectation of modern fighter cover and where your element of surprise is total. They are a sneak-attack ground strike aircraft and painting them as a "fighter" is a terrible idea. Against a modern NS opponent, they would be swatted from the sky.

[The Republic of Lanos]

Would it be feasible to make an NS F-117 an actual stealth fighter comparable to the F-22 in its time?

Calling the F-117 a "fighter" is a misnomer, anyway. It was never designed for air-to-air combat, was never capable of supersonic flight, could only carry two weapons internally and lacks a cannon. It really has a pretty terrible aerodynamic coefficient, carries no onboard radar whatsoever, is limited to 5,000 lbs. of ordinance, cannot make use of an afterburner...

It is the product of the cutting edge of 1970's computer-aided design, but subsequent designs like the F-22 Raptor are far more advanced, carry much more ordinance, can actually carry a radar, can travel beyond the speed of sound...

F-117A is only useful as a tactical first-strike aircraft in areas where you have no expectation of modern fighter cover and where your element of surprise is total. They are a sneak-attack ground strike aircraft and painting them as a "fighter" is a terrible idea. Against a modern NS opponent, they would be swatted from the sky.

Hmm, ok then...

[United States of PA]

F-117 was vulnerable in the 1990s.

Heres a little fun fact though: Apparently the USAF still has all its F-117s in mothball storage in Nevada in case they are needed again (Cant be used over Russia, but certainly can be used over a place like the Middle East or almost anywhere in Africa).

[The Corparation]

Would it be feasible to make an NS F-117 an actual stealth fighter comparable to the F-22 in its time?

Not during the early years but for later in its life you might want to look into the proposed F-117N and A/F-117 X. Niether really compares to the abilities of the Raptor though.

[The Republic of Lanos]

Would it be feasible to make an NS F-117 an actual stealth fighter comparable to the F-22 in its time?

Not during the early years but for later in its life you might want to look into the proposed F-117N and A/F-117 X. Niether really compares to the abilities of the Raptor though.

It'd be like the F-22 of its time until the F-22 came along.

[Marquesan]

Not during the early years but for later in its life you might want to look into the proposed F-117N and A/F-117 X. Niether really compares to the abilities of the Raptor though.

It'd be like the F-22 of its time until the F-22 came along.

F-18 Hornet is far more capable in every measurable way with the exception of RCS. F-15 is a good analogue, too, with much higher capabilities. If your concern is stealth, you might look at the F-22 or some NS analogues from Gemballa Avionic Development that will swat any of those aircraft from the sky. Either way, F-117A is good at only one thing; first strikes with laser-guided glide munitions when air superiority is not contested. Works great in less-developed countries as was said above, not against opponents with sophisticated sensor nets.

[A Hooloovoo]

There's always the sadly rejected YF-23 Black Widow II. Stealthier and faster than the YF-22 at the time.

Wonder how a production F-23A would have compared to the F-22A.

[Saurisisia]

There's always the sadly rejected YF-23 Black Widow II. Stealthier and faster than the YF-22 at the time.

Wonder how a production F-23A would have compared to the F-22A.

Really? It was?

Hm, more you know.

[The Zeonic States]

The 15/16 couldn't touch the Eurofighter but the 22? I hate to admit it but the 22 is moderately superior to the Typhoon in terms of Radar Stealth and Super Sonic Capabilities although that's most in endurance during prolonged usage. Although if we are going by Jet's being able to turn on a dime? The EF beats the Raptor solidly in that realm. Based on the wing loading and thrust of the two jets, the EF would probably have the advantage Anyway, I really need to do an in depth comparision to the two Jets, i know the raptor has the EF beat in most respects but i believe that the EF beats the Raptor in others but i wouldn't discount the EF though.

But Yeah the Raptor is probably the best thing in the air at the moment although perhaps i should say the best thing in the air being mass produced. i still maintain the eurofighter is a solid machine.

[A Hooloovoo]

Yes, it was. I think it had the capability to carry more weapons in the bay, too. They didn't choose the Black Widow because Lockheed had a better reputation, like finishing the Nighthawk on time. Whereas Northrop had the cancelled A-12, the Tigershark, and such. I think politics killed the Black Widow.

However, the F-22A is obviously much more capable than the BW since it's a production aircraft, and not a prototype from over 15 years ago.

[Onekawa-Nukanor]

There's always the sadly rejected YF-23 Black Widow II. Stealthier and faster than the YF-22 at the time.

Wonder how a production F-23A would have compared to the F-22A.

It was also more expensive, and cost should always been considered, especially since is advantages were marginal at best.

Also, it was as fugly as one could get, but I'm one of the few who think that way here, so each to there own.

[Onekawa-Nukanor]

The 15/16 couldn't touch the Eurofighter but the 22? I hate to admit it but the 22 is moderately superior to the Typhoon in terms of Radar Stealth and Super Sonic Capabilities although that's most in endurance during prolonged usage. Although if we are going by Jet's being able to turn on a dime? The EF beats the Raptor solidly in that realm. Based on the wing loading and thrust of the two jets, the EF would probably have the advantage Anyway, I really need to do an in depth comparision to the two Jets, i know the raptor has the EF beat in most respects but i believe that the EF beats the Raptor in others but i wouldn't discount the EF though.

But Yeah the Raptor is probably the best thing in the air at the moment although perhaps i should say the best thing in the air being mass produced. i still maintain the eurofighter is a solid machine.

Have you considered the F-22A Raptors thrust-vectoring engines in regards to stuff as turning radius?

At the least the F-22A is equal to an Typhoon in a dogfight, but has far superior BVR capabilities since it has far, far superior stealth.

I think the F-22A wins, or is at least equal to the Typhoon, in every way.

[The Republic of Lanos]

Now with the F-35 coming to replace a lot of fighters in the US, it's a shame we didn't adopt more of the F-22 in an air-superiority role while leaving the F-35 and variants to be a true multi-role fighter.

[The Zeonic States]

The 15/16 couldn't touch the Eurofighter but the 22? I hate to admit it but the 22 is moderately superior to the Typhoon in terms of Radar Stealth and Super Sonic Capabilities although that's most in endurance during prolonged usage. Although if we are going by Jet's being able to turn on a dime? The EF beats the Raptor solidly in that realm. Based on the wing loading and thrust of the two jets, the EF would probably have the advantage Anyway, I really need to do an in depth comparision to the two Jets, i know the raptor has the EF beat in most respects but i believe that the EF beats the Raptor in others but i wouldn't discount the EF though.

But Yeah the Raptor is probably the best thing in the air at the moment although perhaps i should say the best thing in the air being mass produced. i still maintain the eurofighter is a solid machine.

Have you considered the F-22A Raptors thrust-vectoring engines in regards to stuff as turning radius?

At the least the F-22A is equal to an Typhoon in a dogfight, but has far superior BVR capabilities since it has far, far superior stealth.

I think the F-22A wins, or is at least equal to the Typhoon, in every way.

Hrm i did not consider thrust vectoring in that comparision but i will do so; I need to do a in depth comparision anyway but my entire point was that the 22 either was only moderately superior to the EF in some aspects of not superior at all in others. I more so less view the Machines as Equals in most respects, I just happen to like the Eurofighter Design better personally.

[The Corparation]

On Typhoon vs Raptor I need to dig around but If I recall correctly some Euorpean pilotsa managed to rape some F-22s in dog-fighting during war games. Its got a better turn radius and is smaller and more agile then the Raptor.

Yes, it was. I think it had the capability to carry more weapons in the bay, too. They didn't choose the Black Widow because Lockheed had a better reputation, like finishing the Nighthawk on time. Whereas Northrop had the cancelled A-12, the Tigershark, and such. I think politics killed the Black Widow.

However, the F-22A is obviously much more capable than the BW since it's a production aircraft, and not a prototype from over 15 years ago.

It wasn't because of Reputation it was just politics. Northrop had the lucrative B-2 contract at the time (originally going to be several times the current fleet) . some stuff for the E-3 and The global hawk program. They wanted to spread the contracts around.

Also Tigershark was in-house and got cancelled because congress lifted export restrictions on the F-16 killing the market.

[Grenetar]

My main fighter aircraft is the F-16E/F

Yes I know it has the United Arab Emirates flag on it.

MiG-29BT/SMT

German markings i know.

[Onekawa-Nukanor]

On Typhoon vs Raptor I need to dig around but If I recall correctly some Euorpean pilotsa managed to rape some F-22s in dog-fighting during war games. Its got a better turn radius and is smaller and more agile then the Raptor.

Yes, it was. I think it had the capability to carry more weapons in the bay, too. They didn't choose the Black Widow because Lockheed had a better reputation, like finishing the Nighthawk on time. Whereas Northrop had the cancelled A-12, the Tigershark, and such. I think politics killed the Black Widow.

However, the F-22A is obviously much more capable than the BW since it's a production aircraft, and not a prototype from over 15 years ago.

It wasn't because of Reputation it was just politics. Northrop had the lucrative B-2 contract at the time (originally going to be several times the current fleet) . some stuff for the E-3 and The global hawk program. They wanted to spread the contracts around.

Also Tigershark was in-house and got cancelled because congress lifted export restrictions on the F-16 killing the market.

I remember reading that in dogfighting during wargames the F-22A could give as good as it got, and considering its superioirty in almost every other area... I'll try and find that information.

[A Hooloovoo]

Yes, it was. I think it had the capability to carry more weapons in the bay, too. They didn't choose the Black Widow because Lockheed had a better reputation, like finishing the Nighthawk on time. Whereas Northrop had the cancelled A-12, the Tigershark, and such. I think politics killed the Black Widow.

However, the F-22A is obviously much more capable than the BW since it's a production aircraft, and not a prototype from over 15 years ago.

It wasn't because of Reputation it was just politics. Northrop had the lucrative B-2 contract at the time (originally going to be several times the current fleet) . some stuff for the E-3 and The global hawk program. They wanted to spread the contracts around.

Also Tigershark was in-house and got cancelled because congress lifted export restrictions on the F-16 killing the market.

I couldn't think of the right word. Not reputation but it was more politically sound and industrially sound to choose the YF-22.

It's too bad about the Tigershark though. It was a damn good aircraft.

[Our Most Resplendent Goddess Sen]

Holy shit look what I found.

Detailed report on one of Marquardt's SERJ engine designs!

[The Corparation]

On Typhoon vs Raptor I need to dig around but If I recall correctly some Euorpean pilotsa managed to rape some F-22s in dog-fighting during war games. Its got a better turn radius and is smaller and more agile then the Raptor.


It wasn't because of Reputation it was just politics. Northrop had the lucrative B-2 contract at the time (originally going to be several times the current fleet) . some stuff for the E-3 and The global hawk program. They wanted to spread the contracts around.

Also Tigershark was in-house and got cancelled because congress lifted export restrictions on the F-16 killing the market.

I remember reading that in dogfighting during wargames the F-22A could give as good as it got, and considering its superioirty in almost every other area... I'll try and find that information.

The Raptor despite its impressive TVC is really better suited to BVR combat.

It wasn't because of Reputation it was just politics. Northrop had the lucrative B-2 contract at the time (originally going to be several times the current fleet) . some stuff for the E-3 and The global hawk program. They wanted to spread the contracts around.

Also Tigershark was in-house and got cancelled because congress lifted export restrictions on the F-16 killing the market.

I couldn't think of the right word. Not reputation but it was more politically sound and industrially sound to choose the YF-22.

It's too bad about the Tigershark though. It was a damn good aircraft.

It wasn't anything close to reputation. It was rigged from the start as Northrop already had major contracts while at the time Lockheed really didn't have anything close to what Northrop had at the time. Pentagon likes to distribute the load. Most of the Contests and such are almost entirely decided by politics and lobbying rather then performance.

[Transnapastain]

F-117 was vulnerable in the 1990s.

Heres a little fun fact though: Apparently the USAF still has all its F-117s in mothball storage in Nevada in case they are needed again (Cant be used over Russia, but certainly can be used over a place like the Middle East or almost anywhere in Africa).

This surprises me not at all.

According to what I've read, most of the aircraft in the boneyards down in Arizona and places could be made flight-worthy again as well. I'm sure the F-117's are enjoying a better storage facility that doesn't seem them baking in the hot southwestern sun though.

In fact, and I always laughed at this, there is a B-52 at Wright-Patterson, as part of the National Museum of the United States Air Force's Cold War display. If they move it to another stie, or even another part of the facility for a different display, as per one of the START treaties, they have to inform the Russian's.

[Marquesan]

F-117 was vulnerable in the 1990s.

Heres a little fun fact though: Apparently the USAF still has all its F-117s in mothball storage in Nevada in case they are needed again (Cant be used over Russia, but certainly can be used over a place like the Middle East or almost anywhere in Africa).

This surprises me not at all.

According to what I've read, most of the aircraft in the boneyards down in Arizona and places could be made flight-worthy again as well. I'm sure the F-117's are enjoying a better storage facility that doesn't seem them baking in the hot southwestern sun though.

In fact, and I always laughed at this, there is a B-52 at Wright-Patterson, as part of the National Museum of the United States Air Force's Cold War display. If they move it to another stie, or even another part of the facility for a different display, as per one of the START treaties, they have to inform the Russian's.

I've spent a good deal of time on Davis-Monthan AFB in Tuscon, AZ as part of an Army exercise in the area and I noticed some aircraft are much more carefully mothballed than others, though they're all to a fairly high standard. The best judge, I think, is how much of the aircraft is totally disassembled, how many parts are still on the airframes, etc. A lot of the F-16's, for example, look from the outside like you could almost take off the plastic coatings, start and fly them off, though I'm sure that's not the case.

[The Corparation]

F-117 was vulnerable in the 1990s.

Heres a little fun fact though: Apparently the USAF still has all its F-117s in mothball storage in Nevada in case they are needed again (Cant be used over Russia, but certainly can be used over a place like the Middle East or almost anywhere in Africa).

This surprises me not at all.

According to what I've read, most of the aircraft in the boneyards down in Arizona and places could be made flight-worthy again as well. I'm sure the F-117's are enjoying a better storage facility that doesn't seem them baking in the hot southwestern sun though.

In fact, and I always laughed at this, there is a B-52 at Wright-Patterson, as part of the National Museum of the United States Air Force's Cold War display. If they move it to another stie, or even another part of the facility for a different display, as per one of the START treaties, they have to inform the Russian's.

I wonder if their B-36 would also fall under the treaty.

[Transnapastain]

This surprises me not at all.

According to what I've read, most of the aircraft in the boneyards down in Arizona and places could be made flight-worthy again as well. I'm sure the F-117's are enjoying a better storage facility that doesn't seem them baking in the hot southwestern sun though.

In fact, and I always laughed at this, there is a B-52 at Wright-Patterson, as part of the National Museum of the United States Air Force's Cold War display. If they move it to another stie, or even another part of the facility for a different display, as per one of the START treaties, they have to inform the Russian's.

I wonder if their B-36 would also fall under the treaty.

Thats actually a really interesting question I hadn't considered. I'll try to find out and let you know. I don't see a lot of the guys I used to know who work out there much, though, so no promises.

Also, according to wiki, Walter Soplata of Newbury Ohio, bought the original YB36 the museum had before it moved to the new site, back in 1972 and its sitting in pieces on his farm...It was cheaper from them to fly in a new B-36, the B-36J that's there now, than it was to move the existing one.

[The Corparation]

I wonder if their B-36 would also fall under the treaty.

Thats actually a really interesting question I hadn't considered. I'll try to find out and let you know. I don't see a lot of the guys I used to know who work out there much, though, so no promises.

Also, according to wiki, Walter Soplata of Newbury Ohio, bought the original YB36 the museum had before it moved to the new site, back in 1972 and its sitting in pieces on his farm...It was cheaper from them to fly in a new B-36, the B-36J that's there now, than it was to move the existing one.

I've read about that. Guy's got a full P-47 in new in box stored inside the thing's bomb bay.