NSG Senate Coffee Shop [NSG Senate]

[Shrillland]

Autistic people wont be seeking jobs will they. they will end up on the permanently disabled list. Thus they wont have to search for jobs. IT should never be classed as a need, only those things needed to survive should be classed as needs. FOOD, WATER, WARM CLOTHES AND SHELTER.

You're lumping autistic people into a group. All autistic people are not severely disabled. Look at this article, will you? http://abcnews.go.com/Health/autistic-people-find-job-niche-tech/story?id=19245249

You don't even need to do that. I was diagnosed with a form of Autism when I was 3, and I'm not a severe case.

[Free South Califas]

The act never says that. It simply means there will be unemployment benefits, support for job-seekers, and there will be an absence of arbitrary and restrictive workplace discrimination. "Equal opportunity to work" doesn't mean the government has to give you work or that anyone has to. They simply must judge all candidates equally according to their merits, not things like race, gender, or sexual orientation.

EQUAL: Being the same in quantity, size, degree, or value.


Therefor providing these for one group and not another would be discriminatory under the very same section of the bill!

We need not be so rigid and self-defeating as to accept one extreme Senator's interpretation. (And one whose dedication to equality is at best questionable, let's be honest.) Equality of opportunity does not mean strict literal equality of government benefits in sum.

[Welsh Cowboy]

Worker Rights Act

Urgency: Moderate
Author: Geilinor (LD)
Sponsors: Ainin (TR), Greater Prokarnia (C), Unicario(NIFP), Torsiedelle(NIFP), Lemonius(C)

Description:.

Recognizing that workers' rights are important and that the best way to protect the rights of workers is to ensure workers are empowered to organize themselves and act together to defend and promote their collective interests. The freedom for workers to associate if they so wish is a valuable right for the people of a country to possess. Reasonable protections for workers must also be present, including safe working conditions.

Declaring, with the above in mind, that the following items shall be passed into law.

[list]
1.) All workers will be guaranteed the right to form and participate in democratic organisations of labour, such as unions, independent of government and employer influence.

2.) Employers will be forbidden from discriminating against workers based on their current or past membership of any labour organisation. They will also be forbidden from discriminating against employees based on their involvement in the activities of labour organisations. Employers found to be in violation of this law by a court of law may be required to reverse or alter their violating decision(s) (in compliance with a court-issued demand), or pay compensation to the targeted employee(s) equal to that of the actual and potential wages lost by the employees(s) due to the employer's actions.

3.) All workers, without any discrimination, must receive equal pay for equal work.

4.) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favorable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

5.) Workers shall have at least 10 paid sick days per year.

6.) There shall be a minimum wage, established as a fraction of national GDP, which shall not fall below a threshold deemed suitable for living. It shall be determined by annual review.
( a.) "Threshold deemed suitable for living" is defined as an amount which can sufficiently provide all basic nutritional needs a day for the total number of dependents on the worker (Including the worker themselves), transportation costs to and from work, accommodation, clothing, and utilities.
(b.) Utilities shall be defined as water, gas, electricity, and basic Internet access.

7.) The work week shall be 40 hours, with additional hours paid at 125% of original wages.

8.) Children under the age of 14 shall not be employed, except in certain safe occupations (e.g. newspaper delivery) that do not pose inherent dangers or risks to the child.

9.) Workers who are expected to become parents or have just become parents shall be provided with 6 months of parental leave, paid at 90% of original wages. Both parents can divide the time as they wish, to be taken before or after the child's birth.

10.) Workers' compensation shall be paid to workers who are injured or made ill due to their jobs. Payment will be at 90% of original wages for up to 12 weeks or until the worker has recovered.

Senator, I have just read clause 3 closely.

Are you saying that a janitor at Company A must be paid the same as a janitor at Company B, across the nation?

[Free South Califas]

You disagree with the main premise of the WRA if you believe audiobook readers, musicians, computer repair technicians, audio/visual editors, interactive website designers, ..., and all autistic people are not specifically entitled to an equal opportunity to work.

They have every right to pursue their careers, of course. But I must question why then masons do not have the right to receive bricks from the government. Or why accountants do not receive government-funded pencils and paper?

Masons and accountants, like everyone else, would receive the phone and internet service required to secure a stable income. If they are already paying for the service they need, without this causing them hardship or added stress, the benefit can be waived.

[The Nihilistic view]

EQUAL: Being the same in quantity, size, degree, or value.


Therefor providing these for one group and not another would be discriminatory under the very same section of the bill!

We need not be so rigid and self-defeating as to accept one extreme Senator's interpretation. (And one whose dedication to equality is at best questionable, let's be honest.) Equality of opportunity does not mean strict literal equality of government benefits in sum.

No I suppose the oxford English dictionary won't know the real definition of the word equal.

[Geilinor]

It says, "opportunity", as in "a chance for progress or advancement". Not a guarantee or a government provision of work to everyone. We can't just strip certain people of opportunity just because they are women, LGBT people, non-white, or have a disability. We can't say "These people shouldn't have jobs", like you did. You said that autistic people won't be looking for jobs because they can't have them.

I said they should not have to look for jobs because the state should be looking after them.

Sure... That's what you said.

Autistic people wont be seeking jobs will they. they will end up on the permanently disabled list.

No it isn't. Even if that is what you said, there were much better ways you could have put it.

[Welsh Cowboy]

They have every right to pursue their careers, of course. But I must question why then masons do not have the right to receive bricks from the government. Or why accountants do not receive government-funded pencils and paper?

Masons and accountants, like everyone else, would receive the phone and internet service required to secure a stable income. If they are already paying for the service they need, without this causing them hardship or added stress, the benefit can be waived.

Senator, I apologize if you saw my comment as somehow derogatory or attacking you. It was not; it was merely inquiring that if Internet should be provided to workers such as audiobook developers or web designers, then why should the tools of the trade not be provided to other professions, such as masons or accountants?

[Geilinor]

We need not be so rigid and self-defeating as to accept one extreme Senator's interpretation. (And one whose dedication to equality is at best questionable, let's be honest.) Equality of opportunity does not mean strict literal equality of government benefits in sum.

No I suppose the oxford English dictionary won't know the real definition of the word equal.

We're talking about the definition of the word opportunity. Equal opportunity doesn't mean equality of outcome. But I suppose you won't even be familiar with the common belief in "equality of opportunity". Because apparently it's some kind of communist plot to make everyone earn the same amount and give everyone a job.

[The Nihilistic view]

I said they should not have to look for jobs because the state should be looking after them.

Sure... That's what you said.

Autistic people wont be seeking jobs will they. they will end up on the permanently disabled list.

No it isn't. Even if that is what you said, there were much better ways you could have put it.

One can always phrase something better but that is my opinion. Disabled should not have to work, end off.

[The Nihilistic view]

No I suppose the oxford English dictionary won't know the real definition of the word equal.

We're talking about the definition of the word opportunity. Equal opportunity doesn't mean equality of outcome. But I suppose you won't even be familiar with the common belief in "equality of opportunity". Because apparently it's some kind of communist plot to make everyone earn the same amount and give everyone a job.

. Equal opportunities means giving everyone the same chance, so the state can't give one group more help than another as that would not be giving them all equal opportunities.

[Geilinor]

Worker Rights Act

Urgency: Moderate
Author: Geilinor (LD)
Sponsors: Ainin (TR), Greater Prokarnia (C), Unicario(NIFP), Torsiedelle(NIFP), Lemonius(C)

Description:.

Recognizing that workers' rights are important and that the best way to protect the rights of workers is to ensure workers are empowered to organize themselves and act together to defend and promote their collective interests. The freedom for workers to associate if they so wish is a valuable right for the people of a country to possess. Reasonable protections for workers must also be present, including safe working conditions.

Declaring, with the above in mind, that the following items shall be passed into law.

[list]
1.) All workers will be guaranteed the right to form and participate in democratic organisations of labour, such as unions, independent of government and employer influence.

2.) Employers will be forbidden from discriminating against workers based on their current or past membership of any labour organisation. They will also be forbidden from discriminating against employees based on their involvement in the activities of labour organisations. Employers found to be in violation of this law by a court of law may be required to reverse or alter their violating decision(s) (in compliance with a court-issued demand), or pay compensation to the targeted employee(s) equal to that of the actual and potential wages lost by the employees(s) due to the employer's actions.

3.) All employees of the same employer, without any discrimination, must receive equal pay for equal work.

4.) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favorable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

5.) Workers shall have at least 10 paid sick days per year.

6.) There shall be a minimum wage, established as a fraction of national GDP, which shall not fall below a threshold deemed suitable for living. It shall be determined by annual review.
( a.) "Threshold deemed suitable for living" is defined as an amount which can sufficiently provide all basic nutritional needs a day for the total number of dependents on the worker (Including the worker themselves), transportation costs to and from work, accommodation, clothing, and utilities.
(b.) Utilities shall be defined as water, gas, electricity, and basic Internet access.

7.) The work week shall be 40 hours, with additional hours paid at 125% of original wages.

8.) Children under the age of 14 shall not be employed, except in certain safe occupations (e.g. newspaper delivery) that do not pose inherent dangers or risks to the child.

9.) Workers who are expected to become parents or have just become parents shall be provided with 6 months of parental leave, paid at 90% of original wages. Both parents can divide the time as they wish, to be taken before or after the child's birth.

10.) Workers' compensation shall be paid to workers who are injured or made ill due to their jobs. Payment will be at 90% of original wages for up to 12 weeks or until the worker has recovered.

Senator, I have just read clause 3 closely.

Are you saying that a janitor at Company A must be paid the same as a janitor at Company B, across the nation?

I changed it so it says that it only applies to the same employer, and it only applies if the quality of their work is the same. Wages shouldn't simply be reduced because of arbitrary characteristics, like gender. An employee that performs better work at the same company would be paid more.

[Welsh Cowboy]

Senator, I have just read clause 3 closely.

Are you saying that a janitor at Company A must be paid the same as a janitor at Company B, across the nation?

I changed it so it says that it only applies to the same employer, and it only applies if the quality of their work is the same. Wages shouldn't simply be reduced because of arbitrary characteristics.

Thank you, Senator.

[Geilinor]

Sure... That's what you said. No it isn't. Even if that is what you said, there were much better ways you could have put it.

One can always phrase something better but that is my opinion. Disabled should not have to work, end off.

What if they can and want to? All you have to do is apologize for your earlier improperly worded statement.

[Welsh Cowboy]

Sure... That's what you said. No it isn't. Even if that is what you said, there were much better ways you could have put it.

One can always phrase something better but that is my opinion. Disabled should not have to work, end off.

Senator, one minute you're railing against big government, but now you seem to be suggesting a large government support program. I am confused.

[Geilinor]

We're talking about the definition of the word opportunity. Equal opportunity doesn't mean equality of outcome. But I suppose you won't even be familiar with the common belief in "equality of opportunity". Because apparently it's some kind of communist plot to make everyone earn the same amount and give everyone a job.

. Equal opportunities means giving everyone the same chance, so the state can't give one group more help than another as that would not be giving them all equal opportunities.

Protection against discrimination doesn't give any group more help than another.

[Free South Califas]

We need not be so rigid and self-defeating as to accept one extreme Senator's interpretation. (And one whose dedication to equality is at best questionable, let's be honest.) Equality of opportunity does not mean strict literal equality of government benefits in sum.

No I suppose the oxford English dictionary won't know the real definition of the word equal.

Agreed, Senator. Anyone who has taken Linguistics 101 for a week knows that a mere dictionary cannot provide every single nuance of every word useful for every situation, except that it is always useful for being an obnoxious tool and blocking any attempt at doing something positive. That is not what they are for; they are reference tools, mostly for laypeople who do not understand linguistic science; they are not comprehensive lexicons. By the way, your hostile tone is not appreciated.

[Geilinor]

One can always phrase something better but that is my opinion. Disabled should not have to work, end off.

Senator, one minute you're railing against big government, but now you seem to be suggesting a large government support program. I am confused.

That's why his statements about "disabled people not having to work and the government paying for everything they need" sound ten times as ridiculous coming from him. He doesn't want disabled people to work but he doesn't want to pay for them to have Internet access. Why not give disabled people who can work the chance to do so? He basically said, "disabled people should stay at home because they can't do anything in the first place." That seems to be one of his points.

[Bleckonia]

Death with Dignity Act
Author: Ainin [TR] and Bleckonia [NCP] | Urgency: Very High
Sponsors: Great Nepal [CFE], Glasgia [LD], New Zepuha [CMP], Jahistic Unified Republic [GG], Malgrave [USLP], Liberated Counties [CFE]

---

The Aurentine Senate,

Noting that the Bodily Sovereignty Act legalized suicide,

Realizing that assisted suicide is still banned in Aurentina,

Declaring that the government has no business dictating the way of death of Aurentine citizens,

Acknowledging the pain and suffering of patients who would rather die in a dignified manner,


Section I - On the Right to Die

1.1: No physician in the Aurentine Commonwealth may be prosecuted for following a patient's request for euthanasia.
1.2: No physician in the Aurentine Commonwealth may be prosecuted for refusing a patient's request for euthanasia.
1.3: For an euthanasia to take place, a physician must have a notarized declaration by the patient authorizing a physician to take said patient's life.
1.4: Family members may not dictate the will of the patient, unless said patient is under age of majority.
1.4.1: The consent of the patient, any legal guardians of the minor patient, and a judge are needed to perform an euthanasia procedure on a minor Aurentinian citizen.
1.5: An assisted suicide may be requested by a fully aware adult citizen for any and all reasons.


Section II - Incapacitated Patients

2.1: No patient may be euthanized if he/she does not give specific written and notarized consent.
2.2: The patient must specify in his/her will, "I request a physician to take my life if I am permanently incapacitated by a terminal or persistent disease or [specific other medical event] and am incapable of providing written consent for an assisted suicide" for an assisted suicide to be performed on a non-responding patient.


Section III - Patient Protection

3.1: No euthanasia procedure may take place up to fifteen (15) days following the initial declaration.
3.2: The patient may rescind his/her request for an assisted suicide at any time.
3.3: No act of euthanasia may be performed on a person with a mental condition obstructing his/her capacity of free thought unless said patient is in severe pain due to the onset of a terminal disease and the request for euthanasia is authorized by a judge.


Section IV - Method of Euthanasia

4.1: All euthanasia procedures must be performed by a licensed medical doctor (MD) in a medical establishment.
4.2: Patients who have requested to receive a euthanasia procedure performed on himself or herself must be lied supine on a flat, elevated surface.
4.3: A 12-lead electrocardiograph monitor must be attached to said patient, along with an electroencephalograph.
4.4: The physician shall then intravenously inject a lethal dose of sodium thiopental into the patient.
4.5: The physician shall not leave the room or enclosure where the procedure is taking place until the patient is declared to be dead.

Hereby passes the Death with Dignity Act.

Revised Death with Dignity Act.

[The Nihilistic view]

One can always phrase something better but that is my opinion. Disabled should not have to work, end off.

What if they can and want to? All you have to do is apologize for your earlier improperly worded statement.

If they want to try then of course they can have the same help as everybody else, but I don't feel they should lose their disabled benefits.

[Welsh Cowboy]

No I suppose the oxford English dictionary won't know the real definition of the word equal.

Agreed, Senator. Anyone who has taken Linguistics 101 for a week knows that a mere dictionary cannot provide every single nuance of every word useful for every situation, except that it is always useful for being an obnoxious tool and blocking any attempt at doing something positive. That is not what they are for; they are reference tools, not comprehensive lexicons. By the way, your hostile tone is not appreciated.

Senator, would I be correct in inferring that you mean to say that every worker should start at the same level, as far as the government is concerned? From there, they may rise or fall on their own merits?

[The Nihilistic view]

One can always phrase something better but that is my opinion. Disabled should not have to work, end off.

Senator, one minute you're railing against big government, but now you seem to be suggesting a large government support program. I am confused.

There is a difference between spending masses of money on those who are born with the tools to help themselves and those who are born or end up without the tools to do so.

[Geilinor]

Death with Dignity Act
Author: Ainin [TR] and Bleckonia [NCP] | Urgency: Very High
Sponsors: Great Nepal [CFE], Glasgia [LD], New Zepuha [CMP], Jahistic Unified Republic [GG], Malgrave [USLP], Liberated Counties [CFE]

---

The Aurentine Senate,

Noting that the Bodily Sovereignty Act legalized suicide,

Realizing that assisted suicide is still banned in Aurentina,

Declaring that the government has no business dictating the way of death of Aurentine citizens,

Acknowledging the pain and suffering of patients who would rather die in a dignified manner,


Section I - On the Right to Die

1.1: No physician in the Aurentine Commonwealth may be prosecuted for following a patient's request for euthanasia.
1.2: No physician in the Aurentine Commonwealth may be prosecuted for refusing a patient's request for euthanasia.
1.3: For an euthanasia to take place, a physician must have a notarized declaration by the patient authorizing a physician to take said patient's life.
1.4: Family members may not dictate the will of the patient, unless said patient is under age of majority.
1.4.1: The consent of the patient, any legal guardians of the minor patient, and a judge are needed to perform an euthanasia procedure on a minor Aurentinian citizen.
1.5: An assisted suicide may be requested by a fully aware adult citizen for any and all reasons.


Section II - Incapacitated Patients

2.1: No patient may be euthanized if he/she does not give specific written and notarized consent.
2.2: The patient must specify in his/her will, "I request a physician to take my life if I am permanently incapacitated by a terminal or persistent disease or [specific other medical event] and am incapable of providing written consent for an assisted suicide" for an assisted suicide to be performed on a non-responding patient.


Section III - Patient Protection

3.1: No euthanasia procedure may take place up to fifteen (15) days following the initial declaration.
3.2: The patient may rescind his/her request for an assisted suicide at any time.
3.3: No act of euthanasia may be performed on a person with a mental condition obstructing his/her capacity of free thought unless said patient is in severe pain due to the onset of a terminal disease and the request for euthanasia is authorized by a judge.


Section IV - Method of Euthanasia

4.1: All euthanasia procedures must be performed by a licensed medical doctor (MD) in a medical establishment.
4.2: Patients who have requested to receive a euthanasia procedure performed on himself or herself must be lied supine on a flat, elevated surface.
4.3: A 12-lead electrocardiograph monitor must be attached to said patient, along with an electroencephalograph.
4.4: The physician shall then intravenously inject a lethal dose of sodium thiopental into the patient.
4.5: The physician shall not leave the room or enclosure where the procedure is taking place until the patient is declared to be dead.

Hereby passes the Death with Dignity Act.

Revised Death with Dignity Act.

I sponsored it.

[Welsh Cowboy]

Senator, one minute you're railing against big government, but now you seem to be suggesting a large government support program. I am confused.

There is a difference between spending masses of money on those who are born with the tools to help themselves and those who are born or end up without the tools to do so.

But Senator Free South Califas has stated that at least one of the purposes of his Internet program would be to help autistic people find jobs.

However, you have implied several times that you'd prefer for disabled and autistic people to be on the government dole, instead of working. This seems inconsistent with a desire to limit government spending.

[Geilinor]

Senator, one minute you're railing against big government, but now you seem to be suggesting a large government support program. I am confused.

There is a difference between spending masses of money on those who are born with the tools to help themselves and those who are born or end up without the tools to do so.

All disabled people are not incapable of working. Don't take the word "dis-abled" literally, because many disabled people are able to work. Most disabled people want to find work, but they can't because of discrimination. With the WRA, we can reduce discrimination while still giving those who can't work disability payments.

[Geilinor]

There is a difference between spending masses of money on those who are born with the tools to help themselves and those who are born or end up without the tools to do so.

But Senator Free South Califas has stated that at least one of the purposes of his Internet program would be to help autistic people find jobs.

However, you have implied several times that you'd prefer for disabled and autistic people to be on the government dole, instead of working. This seems inconsistent with a desire to limit government spending.

I now fully support the Internet program.