Why do people hate F7?

[Geniasis]

Perhaps we should merge both. That way all threads would fit in that new forum thus allowing for a lot of gray.

At the same time, I think that's going too much in the other direction. None of us in NSG would probably like Mama Nana's Bistro cluttering up our pages (sorry Nana you're just an example!) but F7 types wouldn't want all of our Abortion threads cluttering up theirs.

But if we somehow made the divsion less binary... like if the suspicion that someone might smile wasn't enough to get something sent off to SiberiaF7. Hyperbole, but do you get my point? I think there's room for both.

[Demoness]

The dynamics and "cultures" of NS are shifting, and it's very likely that it will be a rough transition. of course, its just part of settling down. Wait until Summer of 2011. I assure you things will slow down by then, severely. The problem is that we seem to have a hierarchy of nations which don't like making room for new ones. The only place that is 'anarchy' would be F7. NSG used to be really fun, and it still KIND of is, but these are harder times, and the first world is split down ideological lines. this is why debates get so personal.

To be fair, the game is closing on ten years now and while there are few of the very old posters left, I had just finished high school when I started playing this game. People who playing now are in junior high, though some are older. The point is that there is also a generation gap.

Though rereading what you said, I think I'm agreeing with you.

[Avenio]

I think F7 has the unfortunate distinction of being both a problem and a massive scapegoat at the same time, with no clear distinction made between the two.

For now I'll restrict my commenting to the roleplaying aspect of F7, seeing as it's the area I have the most experience with. Having been a part of II and the other RP forums for the last year, I (And the community at large there) have noticed a decline in overall quality of the RPs in the last year. Now whether this is cyclical or a long-term phenomena is unclear to me (As I've only been there for a little under two years) but it seems that at least in a sub-group of the II community, F7 is seen as the cause of the problem; in most cases, the vast majority of the F7 RPs have been, at least from an II perspective, very sub-par, essentially on the level of the lowest rung of the II community, that of the very, very uninitiated or those who refuse to improve. (Called 'noobs', among many other more unpleasant names)

The problems occur, from my experience, when people whose primary experience with roleplays have been in the 'gutter' of F7 attempt to RP in II, and, due to the much quicker and less-detailed nature of the F7 RP style, they quickly drown out the community's normal RPs, and thus issues start to occur. It's largely culture shock, in my opinion.

What's to be done about it is even less clear. From what's been seen, the F7'ers are generally not acclimatizing to the other forums as well, and may be having an effect on the quality of newcoming nations' RP'ing quality and their ability to learn. On one hand, I sympathize with some people in the II/roleplaying community in that I think 'some' standards need to be put into place, but I wouldn't go as far as most. I think there needs to be much more player involvement ensuring quality, but beyond that I can't really say.

[Sarkhaan]

Quite possibly. The change seems to have affected more or less everyone on the forums -- RPers talk about "the move from jolt" having fundamentally changed something just as much as NSGers do. I do recall a lot of "the forums were much better in the old days" threads on Jolt, and before Jolt for that matter, but this* is the first time I've considered such complaints to have that much merit tbh.

* i.e., since the summer of '09

Perhaps things fundamentally changed, but there were differences in how the forums were organized in the move to Jolt and the move away from it. F7 was created, disappeared, and was reinstated at least once, if not multiple times without a change to the quality of General. As far as RPing goes, there were changes made to that as well, most notably with the addition of II, and now it's gone back to the same mess. It's really just a matter of perspective.

There used to be some more playful threads...whatcha look like?, whatcha listening to?, whatcha sound like?, "sexiest NSGer", things like that. We also had DCD's fun news threads, where he would find every odd news story and there would be a playful thread about it. Not the flood of puns we have today (which grow thin pretty quickly), but legit discussions based around something kinda fun and light hearted. Straughn and I used to do anecdote threads, which I'm fairly certain would be relegated to F7 today, as well as Peech's "Choose Wisely" thread, which was just...fantastic.

I didn't like those posts. They seemed post whore fodder to me, especially the threads where you were supposed to post pictures of yourself.

You weren't forced to participate in them. Many threads on here don't interest me...I don't read them, life goes on. But for those that would like them (and for those of us that remember the days when there were seven pages of threads with new posts from the last 24 hours), they are nice. They keep things light, let us play, but don't drop to the frequent spam levels or kinda IC levels of F7.

[Maurepas]

Perhaps we should merge both. That way all threads would fit in that new forum thus allowing for a lot of gray.

At the same time, I think that's going too much in the other direction. None of us in NSG would probably like Mama Nana's Bistro cluttering up our pages (sorry Nana you're just an example!) but F7 types wouldn't want all of our Abortion threads cluttering up theirs.

But if we somehow made the divsion less binary... like if the suspicion that someone might smile wasn't enough to get something sent off to SiberiaF7. Hyperbole, but do you get my point? I think there's room for both.

I would agree with that assessment myself. Last year, the "Sexiest NSer" thread was allowed to stay in General, this year it was not. Things like that thread need to stay in General. I think one can tell the difference between lighthearted and spammy, and there should be less of a strict use of F7 as it concerns moving those kinds of threads.

[Saint Clair Island]

Do you guys have a playbook for when this happens? Because I swear you do the same things each time, and each time it does nothing to address anything.

I suppose it was mostly the apparent mod reliance on "canned" replies ("submit a GHR", "if you don't like it, leave", etc etc) that led me to raise an accusation of "not invested in the forums." To me, such replies seem indicative of a much more bitter and "it's-all-the-same" attitude towards the community.

When you guys talk about wanting NSG to be more "social," what exactly do you mean by that?

There used to be some more playful threads...whatcha look like?, whatcha listening to?, whatcha sound like?, "sexiest NSGer", things like that. We also had DCD's fun news threads, where he would find every odd news story and there would be a playful thread about it. Not the flood of puns we have today (which grow thin pretty quickly), but legit discussions based around something kinda fun and light hearted. Straughn and I used to do anecdote threads, which I'm fairly certain would be relegated to F7 today, as well as Peech's "Choose Wisely" thread, which was just...fantastic.

I suppose the only difference between those threads and today's F7 threads is that the old NSG shared a community between the "social" and "serious" topics, while the new NSG doesn't. One group of players is social, one is serious.

Which is more our fault than anything else, honestly. Forum 7 was basically created as a sandbox which we could make of what we wished, without moderation and with regular purges (much like NSG circa 2003). Look what it's become.

You can pretend that the first thread was not a pit of flame and cheap shots and that B E E K E R did not do the classic troll move of posting a remark calculated to get things simmering and disappearing, but it's not going to change the reality of what that thread contained.

... a legitimate debate from which the flamy/trolly posts could have been separated out and warned for on their own, rather than having the whole thread be locked down?

I can't believe I'm saying this, but... maybe I'm not cynical enough yet.

[Demoness]

I think F7 has the unfortunate distinction of being both a problem and a massive scapegoat at the same time, with no clear distinction made between the two.

For now I'll restrict my commenting to the roleplaying aspect of F7, seeing as it's the area I have the most experience with. Having been a part of II and the other RP forums for the last year, I (And the community at large there) have noticed a decline in overall quality of the RPs in the last year. Now whether this is cyclical or a long-term phenomena is unclear to me (As I've only been there for a little under two years) but it seems that at least in a sub-group of the II community, F7 is seen as the cause of the problem; in most cases, the vast majority of the F7 RPs have been, at least from an II perspective, very sub-par, essentially on the level of the lowest rung of the II community, that of the very, very uninitiated or those who refuse to improve. (Called 'noobs', among many other more unpleasant names)

The problems occur, from my experience, when people whose primary experience with roleplays have been in the 'gutter' of F7 attempt to RP in II, and, due to the much quicker and less-detailed nature of the F7 RP style, they quickly drown out the community's normal RPs, and thus issues start to occur. It's largely culture shock, in my opinion.

What's to be done about it is even less clear. From what's been seen, the F7'ers are generally not acclimatizing to the other forums as well, and may be having an effect on the quality of newcoming nations' RP'ing quality and their ability to learn. On one hand, I sympathize with some people in the II/roleplaying community in that I think 'some' standards need to be put into place, but I wouldn't go as far as most. I think there needs to be much more player involvement ensuring quality, but beyond that I can't really say.

I can see the correlation, whether or not I agree with it (personally, I think it also has to do with the books people read, if any at all). However, some of it can be blamed on the community itself. People who take RP seriously do not seem to have the patience to mentor someone who is inexperienced or, worse yet, they are elitist and simply won't play with them. There is less of a problem (though it still exists) on smaller forums because the ratio of new players to experienced players is smaller and more manageable. Here it seems impossible.

[Sailsia]

The dynamics and "cultures" of NS are shifting, and it's very likely that it will be a rough transition. of course, its just part of settling down. Wait until Summer of 2011. I assure you things will slow down by then, severely. The problem is that we seem to have a hierarchy of nations which don't like making room for new ones. The only place that is 'anarchy' would be F7. NSG used to be really fun, and it still KIND of is, but these are harder times, and the first world is split down ideological lines. this is why debates get so personal.

To be fair, the game is closing on ten years now and while there are few of the very old posters left, I had just finished high school when I started playing this game. People who playing now are in junior high, though some are older. The point is that there is also a generation gap.

Though rereading what you said, I think I'm agreeing with you.

I agree with you very much. It IS a matter of age as well. So in reality, you may see a thread with the same idea as a previous one, but it just so happens player Y never SAW player X's thread, and it WAS a legit idea! Most don't notice, but someone like you who has been around for a while WOULD notice because YOU saw player x's post. The only solution in my opinion is to actually start posting fun stories which can be commented on again. I'd like to say I'll do it, but that would just make me look whorish.

I'll let it up to one of the old'timers.

[Katganistan]

No. Not according to the moderation forum's rules.

Imagine that...a mod getting the rules wrong...and with such condescension to boot! Marvellous.

Imagine that... it's amazing how the key part of that post got cut off, innit? Especially since it wasn't linked to so people could read it for themselves. The two sentences immediately following 'do NOT post in moderation.' are as follows:

"We've gotten many, many, "in my opinion" posts and downright wrong non-mod rulings and they are just NOT HELPFUL.

We're going to start banning folks who can't just stay out unless they have something useful to say."

But since it was, in fairness, unclear, I've added a new point 1 to the list. Post away.

[Geniasis]

I suppose the only difference between those threads and today's F7 threads is that the old NSG shared a community between the "social" and "serious" topics, while the new NSG doesn't. One group of players is social, one is serious.

I think this is a big part of it. Back in the old days we were able to share some sort of casual rapport between posters, even those with whom we'd normally rip jugulars out. It helped us separate person from ideology.

[Laos Refugees]

Every forum sucks it in its own way. Out of the three that aren't N.S related, F7 is the worst.
F7- Bastard-R.Ps and silly threads.
General- Rape Debates, Christians vs Atheists,Obama debates,War debates, etc
Arts and Fiction- Unappealing, books are grand and all, but, eh.


I don't really care for "Being Random" and all this other teenage jazz. Nor do I care for these long, drawn out debates by two people of no real importance, debating over a issue that isn't important.
That's just my opinion, anyways.

[Sarkhaan]

There used to be some more playful threads...whatcha look like?, whatcha listening to?, whatcha sound like?, "sexiest NSGer", things like that. We also had DCD's fun news threads, where he would find every odd news story and there would be a playful thread about it. Not the flood of puns we have today (which grow thin pretty quickly), but legit discussions based around something kinda fun and light hearted. Straughn and I used to do anecdote threads, which I'm fairly certain would be relegated to F7 today, as well as Peech's "Choose Wisely" thread, which was just...fantastic.

I suppose the only difference between those threads and today's F7 threads is that the old NSG shared a community between the "social" and "serious" topics, while the new NSG doesn't. One group of players is social, one is serious.

Which is more our fault than anything else, honestly. Forum 7 was basically created as a sandbox which we could make of what we wished, without moderation and with regular purges (much like NSG circa 2003). Look what it's become.

The issue is this: many of us didn't want the sandbox. We wanted the moderation, we still wanted structured conversation...we just didn't want it to be all serious. F7 took what we had, spun it off, and ripped off the chains...somewhat needlessly. Things were fine with the light hearted threads and no word games, and I'm not entirely sure who decided or why they decided that things needed to be changed.

I could see F7 sticking around for the pure spam (Jolt had a spam forum, iirc). I'd just like to see threads that have actual social value remain in NSG.

[The Blaatschapen]

At the same time, I think that's going too much in the other direction. None of us in NSG would probably like Mama Nana's Bistro cluttering up our pages (sorry Nana you're just an example!) but F7 types wouldn't want all of our Abortion threads cluttering up theirs.

But if we somehow made the divsion less binary... like if the suspicion that someone might smile wasn't enough to get something sent off to SiberiaF7. Hyperbole, but do you get my point? I think there's room for both.

I would agree with that assessment myself. Last year, the "Sexiest NSer" thread was allowed to stay in General, this year it was not. Things like that thread need to stay in General. I think one can tell the difference between lighthearted and spammy, and there should be less of a strict use of F7 as it concerns moving those kinds of threads.

And sometime before that it would have been moved to F7 without a doubt. I remember that in the beginning of F7 the rules were more strict(the dutch topic was also in F7 for a while). So it went from very strict to less strict to a bit more strict again.

But I disagree on the idea that the difference between lighthearted and spammy is easy to distinguish. A lighthearted thread can easily become a spamfest or at least more spammy after a while. Do you move it then from NSG to F7? Do you move it at the start just to be sure? Do you lock it when it gets too spammy for NSG? Do you let it slide in the danger that threads that start out spammy will appear instead of just threads that evolved to become spammy?

[Demoness]

I didn't like those posts. They seemed post whore fodder to me, especially the threads where you were supposed to post pictures of yourself.

You weren't forced to participate in them. Many threads on here don't interest me...I don't read them, life goes on. But for those that would like them (and for those of us that remember the days when there were seven pages of threads with new posts from the last 24 hours), they are nice. They keep things light, let us play, but don't drop to the frequent spam levels or kinda IC levels of F7.

No, I wasn't forced to participate in them, but I am commenting on why I dislike F7, as they are threads that would be shoved into that forum, and the like/dislike of F7 is the actual topic here.

I also miss those days because those days were also ones where I could read all the threads in the forum.

I agree with you very much. It IS a matter of age as well. So in reality, you may see a thread with the same idea as a previous one, but it just so happens player Y never SAW player X's thread, and it WAS a legit idea! Most don't notice, but someone like you who has been around for a while WOULD notice because YOU saw player x's post. The only solution in my opinion is to actually start posting fun stories which can be commented on again. I'd like to say I'll do it, but that would just make me look whorish.

I'll let it up to one of the old'timers.

Well it won't be me. I might have Antiquity next to my name, but I don't have any cred because most of the people who remember me have moved on. Hell, Melkor may be the only active one left who remembers me and I'm not even sure he's still around.

[Nadkor]

No, it wasn't. There was an element of that, but claiming that was the general purpose of the thread is nothing more than an outright lie.

Your perception, of course. But then again, you haven't started a 'legitimate' gripe thread in the moderation forum, nor have you started a thread about "legitimate concerns about General".

Well, I wouldn't want to break the sacred moderation forum's rules now, would I Kat?

You can pretend that the first thread was not a pit of flame and cheap shots and that B E E K E R did not do the classic troll move of posting a remark calculated to get things simmering and disappearing, but it's not going to change the reality of what that thread contained. And you can continue to make snide remarks and personal attacks, too, but that still isn't going to change reality of what the thread contained either. And you can make remarks about the vast mod playbook for ignoring 'legitimate complaints', but do at least admit to yourself, if no one else, that when 'legitimate complaints' go hand in hand with abusing other players who have just as much right to be here... what was it someone said? The signal to noise ratio gets out of whack and the message gets garbled.

What clearly isn't going to change is the response of the moderators every time the exact same concerns and complaints are raised (and you know as well as I do that this is the third or fourth time this has happened). Do nothing. Lock the thread. Make up some excuse. Paint the thread as being full of older members complaining about having to accommodate newer members. Most importantly do nothing about the issues raised.

Repeat.

If either of the two threads tonight on the subject should have been locked it was this one. But this one was about F7, not NSG, so, hey, why not try and diffuse the situation by directing everyone to this one instead? That should solve the problem of people complaining about NSG, right?

And nicely done with quoting CToaN's post completely out of context (when it was specifically referring to F7) to make it look like you're being reasonable.

[Dakini]

I don't post there often, not because I have anything against it, but because I sort of don't try to post a lot overall and a lot of the threads there are sometimes very long and involved. I also don't like jumping back and forth between there and General. Monitoring threads in one forum is enough usually.

Although I went there for a bit today and it was fine, I may go back when it's slow here again.

[Sailsia]

Every forum sucks it in its own way. Out of the three that aren't N.S related, F7 is the worst.
F7- Bastard-R.Ps and silly threads.
General- Rape Debates, Christians vs Atheists,Obama debates,War debates, etc
Arts and Fiction- Unappealing, books are grand and all, but, eh.


I don't really care for "Being Random" and all this other teenage jazz. Nor do I care for these long, drawn out debates by two people of no real importance, debating over a issue that isn't important.
That's just my opinion, anyways.

agreed upon no the less. I think what everyone needs to keep in mind is that NSG doesn't change the world, it just makes you better at articulating arguments. (slightly) and that there is NEVER a winner or loser. Maybe in real life. But in real life, it isn't nationstates. right!?

[Geniasis]

Imagine that... it's amazing how the key part of that post got cut off, innit? Especially since it wasn't linked to so people could read it for themselves. The two sentences immediately following 'do NOT post in moderation.' are as follows:

"We've gotten many, many, "in my opinion" posts and downright wrong non-mod rulings and they are just NOT HELPFUL.

We're going to start banning folks who can't just stay out unless they have something useful to say."

But since it was, in fairness, unclear, I've added a new point 1 to the list. Post away.

So if I gathered up the posts that were constructively discussing what exactly the problem is with F7 that we're figuring out how to articulate exactly and specifically how we think it's harmed General and quoted them in a megapost in Moderation or linked to them, would that be what you're suggesting I do?

[Katganistan]

Your perception, of course. But then again, you haven't started a 'legitimate' gripe thread in the moderation forum, nor have you started a thread about "legitimate concerns about General".

Well, I wouldn't want to break the sacred moderation forum's rules now, would I Kat?

You can pretend that the first thread was not a pit of flame and cheap shots and that B E E K E R did not do the classic troll move of posting a remark calculated to get things simmering and disappearing, but it's not going to change the reality of what that thread contained. And you can continue to make snide remarks and personal attacks, too, but that still isn't going to change reality of what the thread contained either. And you can make remarks about the vast mod playbook for ignoring 'legitimate complaints', but do at least admit to yourself, if no one else, that when 'legitimate complaints' go hand in hand with abusing other players who have just as much right to be here... what was it someone said? The signal to noise ratio gets out of whack and the message gets garbled.

What clearly isn't going to change is the response of the moderators every time the exact same concerns and complaints are raised (and you know as well as I do that this is the third or fourth time this has happened). Do nothing. Lock the thread. Make up some excuse. Paint the thread as being full of older members complaining about having to accommodate newer members. Most importantly do nothing about the issues raised.

Repeat.

If either of the two threads tonight on the subject should have been locked it was this one. But this one was about F7, not NSG, so, hey, why not try and diffuse the situation by directing everyone to this one instead? That should solve the problem of people complaining about NSG, right?

And nicely done with quoting CToaN's post completely out of context (when it was specifically referring to F7) to make it look like you're being reasonable.

Nicely done cutting out the bit of the moderation post which clearly pointed out that it was 'me too spam' that was being warned against.
How are those cherries?

[Laerod]

Monitoring threads in one forum is enough usually.

Depends on the forum. I always keep an eye on Moderation while in General, for instance.

[San-Martin]

Well F7 is filled with pointless things.

[Saint Clair Island]

Quite possibly. The change seems to have affected more or less everyone on the forums -- RPers talk about "the move from jolt" having fundamentally changed something just as much as NSGers do. I do recall a lot of "the forums were much better in the old days" threads on Jolt, and before Jolt for that matter, but this* is the first time I've considered such complaints to have that much merit tbh.

* i.e., since the summer of '09

Perhaps things fundamentally changed, but there were differences in how the forums were organized in the move to Jolt and the move away from it. F7 was created, disappeared, and was reinstated at least once, if not multiple times without a change to the quality of General. As far as RPing goes, there were changes made to that as well, most notably with the addition of II, and now it's gone back to the same mess. It's really just a matter of perspective.

The original F7 lasted three months or so and didn't have much of an impact on the content of NSG -- largely because NSG at that time still maintained a number of F7-like threads (pic threads, anecdote threads, Free Soviets Tells Your Future, the Paradise Club, etc) which on some level helped to cement the sense of a diverse community within that forum. Even if you didn't participate in them (I recall being quite critical of such threads at various points in my NS existence *cough*).

As for the RP forums, both you and Avenio make good points about their perceived decline.

Since there's no good way of reversing such a decline short of massive grassroots effort, though -- it mostly being caused by a change in player attitudes, a lack of people actively willing either to shake things up or to be shaken up (which is the far more important part) etc -- I'll just find someone to pin the blame on. It's all your fault, Nadkor. Shame on you.

[Katganistan]

Imagine that... it's amazing how the key part of that post got cut off, innit? Especially since it wasn't linked to so people could read it for themselves. The two sentences immediately following 'do NOT post in moderation.' are as follows:

"We've gotten many, many, "in my opinion" posts and downright wrong non-mod rulings and they are just NOT HELPFUL.

We're going to start banning folks who can't just stay out unless they have something useful to say."

But since it was, in fairness, unclear, I've added a new point 1 to the list. Post away.

So if I gathered up the posts that were constructively discussing what exactly the problem is with F7 that we're figuring out how to articulate exactly and specifically how we think it's harmed General and quoted them in a megapost in Moderation or linked to them, would that be what you're suggesting I do?

I've even started it for you.

[Meryuma]

A lot of you seem to hate F7 because it's full of teenagers. What's wrong with teenagers?

[The Blaatschapen]

I could see F7 sticking around for the pure spam (Jolt had a spam forum, iirc). I'd just like to see threads that have actual social value remain in NSG.

I remember this call being made before sometime ago (1 year ago? 0.5 year ago?). Back then it was a hot topic with much discussion and also as one of the solutions some new mods and a bit more leeway regarding social topics in NSG. Are we reinventing the wheel again? Were the actions taken back then not enough? Or have they been reverted somehow?