African Empire or Western precursor?

[Jochistan]

In Classical History or Archaeology, Egypt, Greece and Rome are considered the great classical civilizations whose achievements heavily influenced and shaped Western Civilization.
But some debate can be made over how "Western" many of them were. The question of the origins and ethnicity of the Ancient Egyptians might lead some to beleive they should be counted as an African civilization or a Mediterranean one more in common with western cultures than anything else.

Personally, I think calling them an "African civilization" is sort of innaccurate. As they have more in common with Western Precursor cultures like the other "Classical" Civilizations (depending on the time, but still) than other African Empires like Nubia to the south. (Kush sort of just adopted their values, as cool as Piye was)

So what do you think NSG? Can Egypt count as a great African Empire or a "Classical Western" Civilization?

[Utceforp]

I think the Eastern Mediterranean as a whole was kind of its own thing, especially in the Bronze Age. The Egyptians had more cultural intermingling with Mesopotamia, the Levant and the Aegean/Asia Minor than either the other parts of Africa or the other parts of Europe. The Egyptians were a huge influence on the Greeks to be fair but I don't think they're really a "Western precursor" in the same way Greece or Rome is. (For one thing, no matter how popular Egypt was in Europe, it was never as obsessively emulated as Rome and Greece were/are.)

Linguistically, the Egyptian language was more closely related to Hebrew and Arabic than any European language. So there's that.

[Kelaravamana]

Personally, I don't think ancient Egypt should be counted as either an African or a European civilization. I think it would be more appropriate to classify ancient Egypt as a Near Eastern civilization, since they shared linguistic, cultural, and ethnic similarities with Near Eastern civilizations like Phoenicia and Mesopotamia. Sure, they did influence Europe and sub-Saharan Africa to an extent, but despite that, I don't think they were really a "precursor" to any other civilization in that region.

[Cetacea]

Personally, I don't think ancient Egypt should be counted as either an African or a European civilization. I think it would be more appropriate to classify ancient Egypt as a Near Eastern civilization, since they shared linguistic, cultural, and ethnic similarities with Near Eastern civilizations like Phoenicia and Mesopotamia. Sure, they did influence Europe and sub-Saharan Africa to an extent, but despite that, I don't think they were really a "precursor" to any other civilization in that region.

Dynastic Egyptians were indigenous to the Nile valley and thats what makes them African and really thats all that should matter in the debate.

Of course the whole race controversy is a 'modern' one since the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans attached no special stigma to the colour of the skin and happily accepted that native Egyptians came in various shades from black to white and various shades of gold in between.

Egyptians were a mixed afro-asiatic people descended from peoples who lived across the Horn of Africa and across the Red Sea into the Arab Peninsula. So if we are to address the question of OP then I'll say Egypt, Greece and Rome (Etruscan) culture is Asian in origin. More specifically it is West Asian/Levantian and in the case of Egypt indigenous to Egypt

[Conscentia]

African Empire or Western precursor?

[Nationes Pii Redivivi]

Because only one is on the African Continent, and the idea of the 'West' hasn't really gotten around to existing yet, so, neither-ish?

[Jochistan]

Personally, I don't think ancient Egypt should be counted as either an African or a European civilization. I think it would be more appropriate to classify ancient Egypt as a Near Eastern civilization, since they shared linguistic, cultural, and ethnic similarities with Near Eastern civilizations like Phoenicia and Mesopotamia. Sure, they did influence Europe and sub-Saharan Africa to an extent, but despite that, I don't think they were really a "precursor" to any other civilization in that region.

But their innovations and culture spread along the Mediterranean. Building what would eventually become western values.

[Baltenstein]

Well, in their art, the Ancient Egyptians depicted themselves as different from both the more fair-skinned Greeks and Persians and the more dark-skinned Nubians.

So something in between, probably.

[Kubra]

In Classical History or Archaeology, Egypt, Greece and Rome are considered the great classical civilizations whose achievements heavily influenced and shaped Western Civilization.
But some debate can be made over how "Western" many of them were. The question of the origins and ethnicity of the Ancient Egyptians might lead some to beleive they should be counted as an African civilization or a Mediterranean one more in common with western cultures than anything else.

Personally, I think calling them an "African civilization" is sort of innaccurate. As they have more in common with Western Precursor cultures like the other "Classical" Covilizations (depending on the time, but still) than other African Empires like Nubia to the south. (Kush sort of just adopted their values, as cool as Piye was)

So what do you think NSG? Can Egypt count as a great African Empire or a "Classical Western" Civilization?

It's fine calling it african, insofar as they were very important for north africa
past the Sahel is a whole different place entirely

[Conserative Morality]

Near-Eastern civilization. I would say it has little connecting it to the other two choices.

[United Territories and States]

I say it's in it's own category, but the Ptolemaic Egypt is a Greek Civilization.

[Terminus Alpha]

Both.

[Napkiraly]

Near-Eastern would probably be the best description. You could also use both, it doesn't have to be exclusive. I also don't know why Egypt is included as one of the precursors when Persia has had just as much, if not more, influence than Egypt has.

[Genivaria]

Egypt's unique position gave it a bit of it's own cultural region.

[Mushet]

It's from Africa, it's an African civilization.

[Alsheb]

The Egyptian Empire was definitely not a "classical western" realm. In fact, I think the entire "European empires" theory is incredibly overblown.
Even the Greeks and Romans had little to no touch with, or love for, the "continent of Europe", that as far as they were concerned was mainly inhabited by uncivilised savages.

If anything, I would describe these civilisations as being inherently Mediterranean in culture. It counts for Egypt as well as for Hellas, Rome, Phoenicia and Carthage that the Mediterranean Sea was their main way of contact and trade with the others, and was the main route of influence between all of them.

But even then, Egypt stood out as being even less "European" than say Greece or Rome. Egypt was influenced by Nubia and Kush, and had a lot of Nubians within its realm, especially after Egypt annexed Nubia. Even more, there was a time when Nubians actually ruled over Egypt as Pharaoh. Egypt was a sort of unique amalgam of Mediterranean, African, Near Eastern and later on Hellenic influences.

[Old Tyrannia]

Egypt was an "African" civilisation insofar as that it was located (primarily) in Africa. However, it would be misleading to view ancient Egypt as a predecessor to later African civilisations, and it course the Egyptians clearly weren't black Africans as some pan-African nationalists have claimed in the past. It would be equally misleading to describe them as a "precursor" to what is often dubbed "Western civilisation," though it is true that the ancient Greeks were strongly influenced by Egypt and there is much that the modern world owes to that influence.

Egypt is generally classed as a Near-Eastern civilisation, although in many ways Egypt was quite unique and isolated from the rest of the ancient world. This was in large part a consequence of the unusual geography of the country and the unique advantages that bestowed. Egyptian civilisation can best be considered its own thing, on my opinion, albeit part of a larger family of ancient Near-Eastern cultures that all interacted with and influenced each other.

[Ethel mermania]

The romans occupied a pretty good chunk of europe, Egypt never did.
Egypt was more of a middle eastern culture, than a greek/Roman one..

When we moderns point to greek and Rome as a precursor a big emphasis is put on governmental style. Greek and Rome are considered the birth of democracy and representative government. What today is called western liberal democracy.

The American founding fathers for example, worshiped the romans.


All that said, there is no denying the role Egypt played in civilization building, and the Greeks and later romans certainly looked at Egypt during that period.


(Sits waiting to be corrected by arch)

[Taosanga]

Where is Arch?

Anyways, it is either both or neither. Although Levantine/Near Eastern civilization is more accurate? Not too sure.

[Frank Zipper]

The civilisations mentioned all have the Mediterranean in common. That seems more significant to me, than whether they are on Eurasia or Africa. The term 'Western' just seems totally wrong in this context.

[The Archregimancy]

Where is Arch?

Working.

On a Bronze/Iron Age assemblage in the Middle East; without much of an internet connection some of the time.

Minor point of order...

Egypt isn't really part of Classical Antiquity, which is typically conceptualised as Mediterranean civilisation from c.800 BC - c.600 AD. So Carthage is an African state that's arguably part of Classical Antiquity; Egypt not so much.

Egyptian civilisation - at least the peak period from the rise of the Old Kingdom through to the end of the New Kingdom - is more properly considered a Bronze Age civilisation of the Ancient Near/Middle East. It's best considered alongside the various Mesopotamian, Anatolian, and Iranian civilisations of the same period rather than Classical Greece and Rome.

Given that the Bronze Age Collapse which leads to the fall of the Egyptian New Kingdom takes place some 350-400 years before the traditional start of Classical Antiquity, we're not really talking about contemporary phenomena.

[Camelza]

First of all I need to clarify that Egypt was already ancient according to Ancient Greeks and Ancient Romans.
Egypt in my opinion was more than anything an early civilisation of the fertile crescent, a cradle of civilisation in the same group as Mesopotamia. Culturally and ethnically they were Afro-Asiatic, as such I'd consider them an African-based civilisation that could be considered an 'African Empire' as well as a western precursor, a precursor to the Romans and Greeks that is.

Hell, there are even hints of Egyptian influence on the Minoan civilisation(Cretan hieroglyphs, architecture), one of the first European organised civilisations that in turn influenced the recently arriving Ancient Greeks(Who also got influence from Canaan).

[Kelaravamana]

Personally, I don't think ancient Egypt should be counted as either an African or a European civilization. I think it would be more appropriate to classify ancient Egypt as a Near Eastern civilization, since they shared linguistic, cultural, and ethnic similarities with Near Eastern civilizations like Phoenicia and Mesopotamia. Sure, they did influence Europe and sub-Saharan Africa to an extent, but despite that, I don't think they were really a "precursor" to any other civilization in that region.

Dynastic Egyptians were indigenous to the Nile valley and thats what makes them African and really thats all that should matter in the debate.

Of course the whole race controversy is a 'modern' one since the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans attached no special stigma to the colour of the skin and happily accepted that native Egyptians came in various shades from black to white and various shades of gold in between.

Egyptians were a mixed afro-asiatic people descended from peoples who lived across the Horn of Africa and across the Red Sea into the Arab Peninsula. So if we are to address the question of OP then I'll say Egypt, Greece and Rome (Etruscan) culture is Asian in origin. More specifically it is West Asian/Levantian and in the case of Egypt indigenous to Egypt

Yes, in a geographical sense, they were African, but culturally speaking, they were very close to the Near Eastern civilizations.

[Kelaravamana]

Personally, I don't think ancient Egypt should be counted as either an African or a European civilization. I think it would be more appropriate to classify ancient Egypt as a Near Eastern civilization, since they shared linguistic, cultural, and ethnic similarities with Near Eastern civilizations like Phoenicia and Mesopotamia. Sure, they did influence Europe and sub-Saharan Africa to an extent, but despite that, I don't think they were really a "precursor" to any other civilization in that region.

But their innovations and culture spread along the Mediterranean. Building what would eventually become western values.

I wasn't arguing against that. Egypt's influence in Europe is undeniable.

[Camelza]

Dynastic Egyptians were indigenous to the Nile valley and thats what makes them African and really thats all that should matter in the debate.

Of course the whole race controversy is a 'modern' one since the Egyptians, Greeks and Romans attached no special stigma to the colour of the skin and happily accepted that native Egyptians came in various shades from black to white and various shades of gold in between.

Egyptians were a mixed afro-asiatic people descended from peoples who lived across the Horn of Africa and across the Red Sea into the Arab Peninsula. So if we are to address the question of OP then I'll say Egypt, Greece and Rome (Etruscan) culture is Asian in origin. More specifically it is West Asian/Levantian and in the case of Egypt indigenous to Egypt

Yes, in a geographical sense, they were African, but culturally speaking, they were very close to the Near Eastern civilizations.

Their language is presumed to belong to a linguistic family that originated in Africa, therefore the most important part of their culture(their language) is propably African and of African origins.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Expa ... siatic.svg