Astounding Immorality of Islam: Allah's "Rewards" in Heaven

[Ostroeuropa]

I've never actually heard a muslim claim this.
You'd think if it was what they believed, they'd be talking about it more as a selling point of the religion. Especially the radical ones.
I'm no fan of islam or religion in general, but I have a sneaking suspicion this 72 virgins thing is disingenuous.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Let them believe whatever the hell they want. As long as they don't hurt anyone or jam their beliefs down anyones thoraght, it's all good

[Nikolausstadt]

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/72_Virgins#Re ... pologetics

That moment when Wikiislam (mistake, accidentially said wikipedia, edited ) actually agrees with the so-called "evil white supremacists" on the Quran.

[Yaramaqui]

There goes the 10 Commandments.

Not really. If you are not already aware, there were actually more than 10 commandments given from God to Moses (I think all of Leviticus is made up of those commandments? I may be mistaken, it's been a while since I've read the Old Testament). So, why are there only ten commandments taught by Christians? Because those 10 Commandments sum up pretty much everything Christ taught in a simple form (I.E not having to read through the entirety of the Gospels every time you need to teach a new believer something). So no, the 10 Commandments are still a thing. It's just pretty much everything else that's no longer required.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=313500
https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopi ... 0&t=338135

I believe you are going off topic from the OP. A better place to discuss such things would be in the Christian or Jewish discussion threads. Preferably the Christian ones.

[The Grey Wolf]

However, what I am interested in is what the Muslim women get in paradise. Muhammad seems to relish describing in detail the celestial rewards that his male followers will receive, but what will Muslim women get?

A penis, so that they can feel safe.

I dunno, I think being transformed into a futanari is the better deal.

[The State of Islam]

Sex is immorality? What did you think Paradise was going to be like? Sitting round the camp-fire singing camp-fire songs. I didn't know you had such a problem with having sex with Beautiful women.

[The State of Islam]

also why should I accept your asexual views of morality?

[The Black Forrest]

also why should I accept your asexual views of morality?

Why should we accept yours?

[The Black Forrest]

Sex is immorality? What did you think Paradise was going to be like? Sitting round the camp-fire singing camp-fire songs. I didn't know you had such a problem with having sex with Beautiful women.

Why do you have to wait for Paradise? And why should woman have to have sex with you?

[Nilla Wayfarers]

Sex is immorality? What did you think Paradise was going to be like? Sitting round the camp-fire singing camp-fire songs. I didn't know you had such a problem with having sex with Beautiful women.

Our C-A-M-P-F-I-R-E-S-O-N-G song.

[Islamic Republic e Jariri]

dn8f9

[Dyakovo]

Except the 'God' of Arabia is Jehovah, just like the 'God' of the Jews, or of Christianity. The morality of all Abrahamic faiths are very similar.

Muslims claim that the God of Islam is the same God of Judaism and Christianity. That doesn't make it true.

https://carm.org/what-does-islam-and-quran-say-about-jesus

[Ostroeuropa]

I've never actually heard a muslim claim this.
You'd think if it was what they believed, they'd be talking about it more as a selling point of the religion. Especially the radical ones.
I'm no fan of islam or religion in general, but I have a sneaking suspicion this 72 virgins thing is disingenuous.

72 virgins don't exist, their not mentioned in the Quran, they were forged into the Hadith.

I know that this is something that many muslims say.
I'm just skeptical that ANY muslim actually believes it (The bit about virgins), not merely most of them.
I've never heard one say it.

What I mean is, you've just told me a rationalization for why you don't believe in this thing. (You have to understand, i'm an atheist. It's all bollocks to me anyway. I've seen religious people constantly rationalize why this bit or that bit doesn't apply, or why you have to do a handstand and squint to see it the correct way, why this verse is fine but that one isn't, etc.)

That's fine. It's a rationalization i've heard often.
I accept that most muslims don't believe this thing based on that rationalization.
I'm going further than that, and saying that i've never seen ANY muslim, of any denomination or interpretation, actually claim this thing about the virgins.
So i'm pretty sure it's completely bollocks. Not merely, rationalized into being bollocks by the typical religious rationalizations of the faithful.

Like claiming christians believe jesus was made of jam or something.

[New Ogunquit]

You could be correct in your criticisms and not a dick about it, that would help.

I feel you on this one.

[Yaramaqui]

Except the 'God' of Arabia is Jehovah, just like the 'God' of the Jews, or of Christianity. The morality of all Abrahamic faiths are very similar.

Muslims claim that the God of Islam is the same God of Judaism and Christianity. That doesn't make it true.

Judaism* has a consensus that Islam has the same God as in Judaism and that it is a holy religion. Judaism* says that Christianity worships the same God as the Jews and Muslims under a more...paganised context.

*I am an orthodox, but the consensus is that it is not avodah zarah, but like the saying says; "2 Jews, 3 ideas"

[Imperium Sidhicum]

Take a society with a tradition of demanding high bride-price, infuse it with a belief in afterlife of sexual orgy for the faithful, impose very strict rules against adultery and prostitution, and consequently never have a shortage of sexually-frustrated angry young men willing to die for the cause.

Pretty devious if you ask me. Muhammad indeed deserves credit for being a cunning politician.

[Nikolausstadt]

I've never actually heard a muslim claim this.
You'd think if it was what they believed, they'd be talking about it more as a selling point of the religion. Especially the radical ones.
I'm no fan of islam or religion in general, but I have a sneaking suspicion this 72 virgins thing is disingenuous.

72 virgins don't exist, their not mentioned in the Quran, they were forged into the Hadith.

Correction: The number isn't mentioned in the Quran. It is, however, mentioned by Allah/RandomAngel[insert number] that heaven includes virgins for men.

Also, no, no male virgins, BTFO wimmin ;-)

[The Archregimancy]

As I understand it, some scholars believe that the whole "72 virgins" thing might be a mistranslation anyway and refer to something else. What, I'm not sure.

Raisins.

No, seriously - some have argued it refers to raisins.

Christoph Luxenberg's book, Die Syro-Aramaische Lesart des Koran, available only in German, came out [in 2001], but has already had an enthusiastic reception, particularly among those scholars with a knowledge of several Semitic languages at Princeton, Yale, Berlin, Potsdam, Erlangen, Aix-en-Provence, and the Oriental Institute in Beirut.

Luxenberg tries to show that many obscurities of the Koran disappear if we read certain words as being Syriac and not Arabic. We cannot go into the technical details of his methodology but it allows Luxenberg, to the probable horror of all Muslim males dreaming of sexual bliss in the Muslim hereafter, to conjure away the wide-eyed houris promised to the faithful in suras XLIV.54; LII.20, LV.72, and LVI.22. Luxenberg 's new analysis, leaning on the Hymns of Ephrem the Syrian, yields "white raisins" of "crystal clarity" rather than doe-eyed, and ever willing virgins - the houris. Luxenberg claims that the context makes it clear that it is food and drink that is being offerred, and not unsullied maidens or houris.

In Syriac, the word hur is a feminine plural adjective meaning white, with the word "raisin" understood implicitly. Similarly, the immortal, pearl-like ephebes or youths of suras such as LXXVI.19 are really a misreading of a Syriac expression meaning chilled raisins (or drinks) that the just will have the pleasure of tasting in contrast to the boiling drinks promised the unfaithful and damned.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/j ... ianreview5

[New Ogunquit]

As I understand it, some scholars believe that the whole "72 virgins" thing might be a mistranslation anyway and refer to something else. What, I'm not sure.

Raisins.

No, seriously - some have argued it refers to raisins.

Christoph Luxenberg's book, Die Syro-Aramaische Lesart des Koran, available only in German, came out [in 2001], but has already had an enthusiastic reception, particularly among those scholars with a knowledge of several Semitic languages at Princeton, Yale, Berlin, Potsdam, Erlangen, Aix-en-Provence, and the Oriental Institute in Beirut.

Luxenberg tries to show that many obscurities of the Koran disappear if we read certain words as being Syriac and not Arabic. We cannot go into the technical details of his methodology but it allows Luxenberg, to the probable horror of all Muslim males dreaming of sexual bliss in the Muslim hereafter, to conjure away the wide-eyed houris promised to the faithful in suras XLIV.54; LII.20, LV.72, and LVI.22. Luxenberg 's new analysis, leaning on the Hymns of Ephrem the Syrian, yields "white raisins" of "crystal clarity" rather than doe-eyed, and ever willing virgins - the houris. Luxenberg claims that the context makes it clear that it is food and drink that is being offerred, and not unsullied maidens or houris.

In Syriac, the word hur is a feminine plural adjective meaning white, with the word "raisin" understood implicitly. Similarly, the immortal, pearl-like ephebes or youths of suras such as LXXVI.19 are really a misreading of a Syriac expression meaning chilled raisins (or drinks) that the just will have the pleasure of tasting in contrast to the boiling drinks promised the unfaithful and damned.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/j ... ianreview5

Oh God, Arch is weighing in on this? Everyone leave, he will destroy you.

[The Archregimancy]

Oh God, Arch is weighing in on this? Everyone leave, he will destroy you.

I'm not looking to 'destroy' anyone.

Imperializt Russia couldn't remember the specific nature of the alleged mistranslation, and no one else had followed up on the point; I was merely helping out.


I offer no opinion on the legitimacy of the mistranslation hypothesis, though I will note that Syriac [Middle Aramaic] and Classical Arabic are reasonably closely related languages.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Raisins.

No, seriously - some have argued it refers to raisins.




http://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/j ... ianreview5

Oh God, Arch is weighing in on this? Everyone leave, he will destroy you.

Now, Arch isn't infallible. Even people like him can be wrong.

He isn't people like him however; he is him.

[New Ogunquit]

Oh God, Arch is weighing in on this? Everyone leave, he will destroy you.

I'm not looking to 'destroy' anyone.

Imperializt Russia couldn't remember the specific nature of the alleged mistranslation, and no one else had followed up on the point; I was merely helping out.


I offer no opinion on the legitimacy of the mistranslation hypothesis, though I will note that Syriac [Middle Aramaic] and Classical Arabic are reasonably closely related languages.

You say you don't want to destroy anyone and then you destroy me. Mixed signals, Arch.

Oh God, Arch is weighing in on this? Everyone leave, he will destroy you.

Now, Arch isn't infallible. Even people like him can be wrong.

He isn't people like him however; he is him.

He is God of NS. Of course he's infallible.

[Imperializt Russia]

72 virgins don't exist, their not mentioned in the Quran, they were forged into the Hadith.

I know that this is something that many muslims say.
I'm just skeptical that ANY muslim actually believes it (The bit about virgins), not merely most of them.
I've never heard one say it.

What I mean is, you've just told me a rationalization for why you don't believe in this thing. (You have to understand, i'm an atheist. It's all bollocks to me anyway. I've seen religious people constantly rationalize why this bit or that bit doesn't apply, or why you have to do a handstand and squint to see it the correct way, why this verse is fine but that one isn't, etc.)

That's fine. It's a rationalization i've heard often.
I accept that most muslims don't believe this thing based on that rationalization.
I'm going further than that, and saying that i've never seen ANY muslim, of any denomination or interpretation, actually claim this thing about the virgins.
So i'm pretty sure it's completely bollocks. Not merely, rationalized into being bollocks by the typical religious rationalizations of the faithful.

Like claiming christians believe jesus was made of jam or something.

I seem to remember 72 virgins being widely publicised in the media in like 2003-2008, and it was a pop culture punchline (mostly in stuff like Family Guy obviously) in that time.

Then it's petered out. I've not heard anyone mention it since, apart from occasionally in sporadic Islamist media.

[The Archregimancy]

You say you don't want to destroy anyone and then you destroy me. Mixed signals, Arch.

I regret that I don't really know who you are.

Now, Arch isn't infallible. Even people like him can be wrong.

He isn't people like him however; he is him.

He is God of NS. Of course he's infallible.

Can we please not write this sort of thing? 1) I'm not even remotely infallible; 2) It detracts from the serious point to hand; 3) it's an irrelevant derail;

I'd rather go back to discussing raisins, if possible.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I seem to remember 72 virgins being widely publicised in the media in like 2003-2008, and it was a pop culture punchline (mostly in stuff like Family Guy obviously) in that time.

Then it's petered out. I've not heard anyone mention it since, apart from occasionally in sporadic Islamist media.

Are you my virgins? I hope not!