The Ball-and-Chain Gang: Convicts and Manual Labor

[Ifreann]

Allowing prisoners to work is useful for rehabilitation, but it should be optional, and they should be paid minimum wage so there is no incentive to prefer convict labor or to want more people incarcerated.

What'll they spend the money on though?

The same shit everyone else does. People generally leave prison at some point, you see.

[Non Conformists]

As I said before, I support the concept of prisons that use hard labor, as they are detrimental to crime, rehabilitating for criminals, and cost-efficient.

Additionally, convicted felons are understood to have incurred a debt to society for their antisocial activities. A prison sentence is more a societal reparation than arbitrary punishment, in most democratic cultures anyhow. Unpaid labor in this instance cannot be considered slavery, as the prisoner is indebted to the state.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

What'll they spend the money on though?

The same shit everyone else does. People generally leave prison at some point, you see.

No shit, Shylock. I was thinking about while in jail.

[The Serbian Empire]

Back on the Chain Gang... I'd support convicts cleaning the road side.

[Ifreann]

As I said before, I support the concept of prisons that use hard labor, as they are detrimental to crime, rehabilitating for criminals, and cost-efficient.

Additionally, convicted felons are understood to have incurred a debt to society for their antisocial activities. A prison sentence is more a societal reparation than arbitrary punishment, in most democratic cultures anyhow. Unpaid labor in this instance cannot be considered slavery, as the prisoner is indebted to the state.

So why can't people just pay off their debts with money?

---

The same shit everyone else does. People generally leave prison at some point, you see.

No shit, Shylock.

Check the toilet, Antonio.

I was thinking about while in jail.

Nothing, obviously.

---

Back on the Chain Gang... I'd support convicts cleaning the road side.

And the people who make a living on cleaning the streets?

[Internationalist Bastard]

Not forced labor, but I think that by giving jobs to prisoners it gives them a purpose and skills to use out of prison. I'd say keep labor but put in on a strict volunteer basis.

[Rusozak]

Wages? Optional labor? Making them pay back to the society they wronged and leech off of is the least we can do, instead of letting them rotting in a cell, eating food and using meds paid for by the people they hurt.

[Ifreann]

Wages? Optional labor? Making them pay back to the society they wronged and leech off of is the least we can do, instead of letting them rotting in a cell, eating food and using meds paid for by the people they hurt.

So why can't people just pay off their debts with money?

[Stellonia]

Wages? Optional labor? Making them pay back to the society they wronged and leech off of is the least we can do, instead of letting them rotting in a cell, eating food and using meds paid for by the people they hurt.

So why can't people just pay off their debts with money?

Not all people have the money to pay their debts to society.

[Cetacea]

Community service or optional work programmes can probably serve to help rehabilitate people, but that should be the only purpose. Prisoners shouldn't be used as a source of free labour for the state.

I am supportive of prisoners working to pay the costs they incur.

Prisoners don't incur any costs. Prisons incur costs. And the idea of having prisoners labour to fund prisons is a terrible in every possible way.

Why should prisoners enjoy free accommodation and services gained due to their criminal activity without any expectation that they contribute labour?
Criminal activity is a choice which communities must "support" via law enforcement, courts and prisons not to mention additional services required by the prisoners family and the prisoner themselves on release from jail. That community impact creates a debt on top of the immediate debt owed to the victim of the crime.

I have no problem with Prisons being payed but then they should also be required to pay for all the goods and services they are receiving including catered meals, rehabilitation, recreation activities, monitoring, victim restitution etc etc.

Prisoners being payed for the work that the unemployed can do on tp of their free accomdation and free services either disincentivizes work or creates incentives for criminal offending

[Internationalist Bastard]

Wages? Optional labor? Making them pay back to the society they wronged and leech off of is the least we can do, instead of letting them rotting in a cell, eating food and using meds paid for by the people they hurt.

So why can't people just pay off their debts with money?

Most people who have the money do

[Ifreann]

Not all people have the money to pay their debts to society.

So people who do have the money can just write a cheque and be set free from prison?

[Rusozak]

Wages? Optional labor? Making them pay back to the society they wronged and leech off of is the least we can do, instead of letting them rotting in a cell, eating food and using meds paid for by the people they hurt.

So why can't people just pay off their debts with money?

Prison labor ensures they pay for their crimes equally, with social and economic standing before being convicted holding no weight or giving advantage. A poor inmate and a rich inmate who committed the same crimes under the same circumstances pay for those crimes the same way. It's not just for the community they harmed, but for themselves and as a negative incentive for staying out of jail.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Not all people have the money to pay their debts to society.

So people who do have the money can just write a cheque and be set free from prison?

Either bail or bribes. Yep. Gotta love our justice system

[Non Conformists]

Additionally, convicted felons are understood to have incurred a debt to society for their antisocial activities. A prison sentence is more a societal reparation than arbitrary punishment, in most democratic cultures anyhow. Unpaid labor in this instance cannot be considered slavery, as the prisoner is indebted to the state.

So why can't people just pay off their debts with money?

In most cases, the convicted dont have the means to redress the damages and court costs incurred by their actions and prosecution. Its an inversion of the phenomenon that sends those fined for misdemeanors to jail in lieu of payment.
The old saying; "If you cant do the time, dont do the crime" could also be translated "If you dont have the dime, dont do the crime".

[The Empire of Pretantia]

No shit, Shylock.

Check the toilet, Antonio.

What's in the- EEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWW, JEW-POO!

I was thinking about while in jail.

Nothing, obviously.

But it's their money, and they need it now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX0fIi3H-es

[Ifreann]

Community service or optional work programmes can probably serve to help rehabilitate people, but that should be the only purpose. Prisoners shouldn't be used as a source of free labour for the state.

Prisoners don't incur any costs. Prisons incur costs. And the idea of having prisoners labour to fund prisons is a terrible in every possible way.

Why should prisoners enjoy free accommodation and services gained due to their criminal activity without any expectation that they contribute labour?

Because they're being imprisoned by the state, and thus are in the care of the state, and obviously the state cannot simply allow people in its care to die. Not even if they're murderers or rapists or terrorists or any other scary-bad-type-person one might care to name.

Criminal activity is a choice which communities must "support" via law enforcement, courts and prisons not to mention additional services required by the prisoners family and the prisoner themselves on release from jail. That community impact creates a debt on top of the immediate debt owed to the victim of the crime.

Which is why people given prison sentences have the option to just write the court a cheque and go free, right? No shady deals, no corrupt judges, just straight up payment of a debt with money.

I have no problem with Prisons being payed

Paid.

but then they should also be required to pay for all the goods and services they are receiving including catered meals, rehabilitation, recreation activities, monitoring, victim restitution etc etc.

What happens if they refuse to pay, or refuse to labour? Kill them? Set them free? Increase their sentence?

Prisoners being payed for the work that the unemployed can do on tp of their free accomdation and free services either disincentivizes work or creates incentives for criminal offending

If prisoners are to be forced to labour to repay a debt and to cover the costs of their imprisonment, that labour must have some value. If the labour they're doing has value, a law abiding person could be employed to do it.

---

Most people who have the money do

Bollocks.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

What happens if they refuse to pay, or refuse to labour? Kill them? Set them free? Increase their sentence?

Beat them.

[Ifreann]

Prison labor ensures they pay for their crimes equally, with social and economic standing before being convicted holding no weight or giving advantage. A poor inmate and a rich inmate who committed the same crimes under the same circumstances pay for those crimes the same way. It's not just for the community they harmed, but for themselves and as a negative incentive for staying out of jail.

Except prison labour doesn't ensure that people all pay for their crimes equally. Digging ditches might be no worse than tedious for the physically fit, but brutally difficult for the physically unfit, and literally impossible for the physically disabled.

---

So people who do have the money can just write a cheque and be set free from prison?

Either bail or bribes. Yep. Gotta love our justice system

Bail cannot be paid in lieu of a prison sentence, and bribes are obviously not a legitimate part of the justice system.

---

So why can't people just pay off their debts with money?

In most cases, the convicted dont have the means to redress the damages and court costs incurred by their actions and prosecution. Its an inversion of the phenomenon that sends those fined for misdemeanors to jail in lieu of payment.
The old saying; "If you cant do the time, dont do the crime" could also be translated "If you dont have the dime, dont do the crime".

So people who do have the money can just write a cheque and be set free from prison?

---

Check the toilet, Antonio.

What's in the- EEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWW, JEW-POO!

If you feed us, do we not shit?

Nothing, obviously.

But it's their money, and they need it now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX0fIi3H-es

I suppose there's no reason they couldn't buy things from prison and store them until they get released.

---

What happens if they refuse to pay, or refuse to labour? Kill them? Set them free? Increase their sentence?

Beat them.

That's a crime.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

What's in the- EEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWW, JEW-POO!

If you feed us, do we not shit?

But it's their money, and they need it now!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX0fIi3H-es

I suppose there's no reason they couldn't buy things from prison and store them until they get released.

Or pay for their mother's medical bills.

---

Beat them.

That's a crime.

But muh justice!

[Ifreann]

If you feed us, do we not shit?

I suppose there's no reason they couldn't buy things from prison and store them until they get released.

Or pay for their mother's medical bills.

Or that.

---

That's a crime.

But muh justice!

If you need to commit crimes to get it, it's not justice.

[Teemant]

Community service or optional work programmes can probably serve to help rehabilitate people, but that should be the only purpose. Prisoners shouldn't be used as a source of free labour for the state.

I am supportive of prisoners working to pay the costs they incur.

Prisoners don't incur any costs. Prisons incur costs. And the idea of having prisoners labour to fund prisons is a terrible in every possible way.

Where you put criminals then?

[Cetacea]

but then they should also be required to pay for all the goods and services they are receiving including catered meals, rehabilitation, recreation activities, monitoring, victim restitution etc etc.

What happens if they refuse to pay, or refuse to labour? Kill them? Set them free? Increase their sentence?.

Confinement to their cell for the duration of the day.

I do have an issue with work being provided to prisoners that the unemployed could do and am currently involved in a community-consortium purchasing a formerly prison-owned horticulture unit, so that it can be used to train the unemployed. However I do think that work programmes are good rehabilitation and prisoners should be expected to work for that reason alone with no expectation of pay except maybe a feed of fish n chips and a certificate of achievement at the end.

We do the same for School students so why not the incarcerated?

As to paying cash for crimes. We already have Cash fines for certain minor-ish offences, so that is a thing. But to me Imprisonment and Work (either community based PD or Prison based Programmes) is paying for the crime-debt using the common currency of Labour-Hours which everyone has. The courts need to be equitable and so they choose labour as the unit of payment rather than cash - nothing wrong with that.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Community service or optional work programmes can probably serve to help rehabilitate people, but that should be the only purpose. Prisoners shouldn't be used as a source of free labour for the state.

Prisoners don't incur any costs. Prisons incur costs. And the idea of having prisoners labour to fund prisons is a terrible in every possible way.

Where you put criminals then?

Prisons, obviously.

[Teemant]

Where you put criminals then?

Prisons, obviously.

Made mistake. Wanted to ask person below:

does telling Prisoners that they can either be confined to their cells or work in the prison vege garden which supplies the foodbanks in the surrounding commities constitute such labour? What about programmes that include recycling old tyres or processing pet food?

What if at the end of their time in the gardens they are issued with a qualification in basic horticulture?

I'm fully in support of such Work programmes

Consistent solution: Abolish prisons.