Free the nipple:should women be able to go topless in public

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

I personally don't care to see anyone shirtless in public, but I think it'd be fair for anyone to not wear shirts if they so desire.

In all places where acceptable, I don't want people not wearing shirts into restaurants (that have a form of dress expectations, I'm not talking McDonald's here) or such. There should still be the expected social courtesies enforceable on private property.

[Stormwind-City]

I personally don't care to see anyone shirtless in public, but I think it'd be fair for anyone to not wear shirts if they so desire.

In all places where acceptable, I don't want people not wearing shirts into restaurants (that have a form of dress expectations, I'm not talking McDonald's here) or such. There should still be the expected social courtesies enforceable on private property.

That would enter the grounds of the health department and avoiding lawsuits for spilling hot food on someone without a shirt.

[Old Tyrannia]

Why on earth should i explain myself for your redicilous claims?

You can dismiss my arguments as "redicilous" [sic] all you like, but doing so is not a replacement for an actual counterargument.

"you are part of a society in which social convention and etiquette regard female shirtlessness as inappropriate"
You obviously hate the ones that live their own lives the way they wan to. Instead you prefer to see some black and white slavery where everybody followes the "rules"

Yeah, imagine a society where people didn't do whatever they wanted to whenever they wanted to, but followed rules and thought about other people. How lame would that be?

Alot of stuff used to be taboo once, but aren't anymore (tattoo's, divorce, not going to church, Fornication ect.), Even Incest is becoming more and more accepted, so please tell me the true reason why you hate women without a shirt, cause the whole "taboo" reason is just a pathetic one.

I also happen to be in favour of people covering their tattoos up in public. None of the other things you mentioned would directly affect me if I were to pass by the person in the street, but if the person were shirtless I'd notice and being brought up in a culture where shirtlessness is a social taboo, that would make me feel uncomfortable. There is a world of difference between something which is someone else's private business and acting or dressing a certain way in public where people have one's personal choice to run around half naked thrown in their face, whether they like it or not.

2) Someone being topless harms nobody

It makes other people feel uncomfortable, which is harming them in a way.

3) The current standards of dress are extremely new in human history, they are not old at all.

Just because what is now considered polite was not always considered polite does not mean that we should dispense with politeness altogether.

4) Social etiquette based on "because it is what it is" is a very bad argument. Social etiquette also used to dictate the hanging of thieves, the stoning of adulterers and the burning of witches.

What this statement tells me is that you are unaware of what etiquette means and equate it with societal attitudes in general.

5) Unless society is now a hive-mind, by your definition everyone is anti-social in some way.

I don't follow.

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

In all places where acceptable, I don't want people not wearing shirts into restaurants (that have a form of dress expectations, I'm not talking McDonald's here) or such. There should still be the expected social courtesies enforceable on private property.

That would enter the grounds of the health department and avoiding lawsuits for spilling hot food on someone without a shirt.

"What led to you spilling coffee on my client?"
"She has huge....tracts of land!"

[The New Sea Territory]

Yeah, imagine a society where people didn't do whatever they wanted to whenever they wanted to, but followed rules and thought about other people. How lame would that be?

Breaking rules is sometimes the best way to care for other people.

[Stormwind-City]

Why on earth should i explain myself for your redicilous claims?

You can dismiss my arguments as "redicilous" [sic] all you like, but doing so is not a replacement for an actual counterargument.

"you are part of a society in which social convention and etiquette regard female shirtlessness as inappropriate"
You obviously hate the ones that live their own lives the way they wan to. Instead you prefer to see some black and white slavery where everybody followes the "rules"

Yeah, imagine a society where people didn't do whatever they wanted to whenever they wanted to, but followed rules and thought about other people. How lame would that be?

Alot of stuff used to be taboo once, but aren't anymore (tattoo's, divorce, not going to church, Fornication ect.), Even Incest is becoming more and more accepted, so please tell me the true reason why you hate women without a shirt, cause the whole "taboo" reason is just a pathetic one.

I also happen to be in favour of people covering their tattoos up in public. None of the other things you mentioned would directly affect me if I were to pass by the person in the street, but if the person were shirtless I'd notice and being brought up in a culture where shirtlessness is a social taboo, that would make me feel uncomfortable. There is a world of difference between something which is someone else's private business and acting or dressing a certain way in public where people have one's personal choice to run around half naked thrown in their face, whether they like it or not.

2) Someone being topless harms nobody

It makes other people feel uncomfortable, which is harming them in a way.

3) The current standards of dress are extremely new in human history, they are not old at all.

Just because what is now considered polite was not always considered polite does not mean that we should dispense with politeness altogether.

4) Social etiquette based on "because it is what it is" is a very bad argument. Social etiquette also used to dictate the hanging of thieves, the stoning of adulterers and the burning of witches.

What this statement tells me is that you are unaware of what etiquette means and equate it with societal attitudes in general.

5) Unless society is now a hive-mind, by your definition everyone is anti-social in some way.

I don't follow.

2) That is a bullshit excuse and you know it. People who wear bright neon colors make me uncomfortable but I don't demand that those colors be banned.
3) The current puritanical standards of dress are not a result of trying to be polite
4) I know what etiquette is. It's behavior pushed by old men who don't like it when people act differently.
5) Everyone does things not all of society would consider ok or 'normal'

[Old Tyrannia]

Yeah, imagine a society where people didn't do whatever they wanted to whenever they wanted to, but followed rules and thought about other people. How lame would that be?

Breaking rules is sometimes the best way to care for other people.

In certain unusual circumstances, maybe. Not in these circumstances. Let us end this line of thought before it evolves into a fully-fledged threadjack.

2) That is a bullshit excuse and you know it. People who wear bright neon colors make me uncomfortable but I don't demand that those colors be banned.

I don't think it should be banned, I think people should refrain from doing it and society should place pressure on those who do it to desist.

3) The current puritanical standards of dress are not a result of trying to be polite

>"current"
>"puritanical"

4) I know what etiquette is. It's behavior pushed by old men who don't like it when people act differently.

I was not aware that as a 19-year-old, I qualified as an old man. It depresses me that you genuinely consider being polite something only old men advocate, but it would explain a great deal if this mindset were common on NationStates.

5) Everyone does things not all of society would consider ok or 'normal'

As long as they don't do it in front of me, I don't give a shit.

[Stormwind-City]

Breaking rules is sometimes the best way to care for other people.

In certain unusual circumstances, maybe. Not in these circumstances. Let us end this line of thought before it evolves into a fully-fledged threadjack.

2) That is a bullshit excuse and you know it. People who wear bright neon colors make me uncomfortable but I don't demand that those colors be banned.

I don't think it should be banned, I think people should refrain from doing it and society should place pressure on those who do it to desist.

3) The current puritanical standards of dress are not a result of trying to be polite

>"current"
>"puritanical"

4) I know what etiquette is. It's behavior pushed by old men who don't like it when people act differently.

I was not aware that as a 19-year-old, I qualified as an old man. It depresses me that you genuinely consider being polite something only old men advocate, but it would explain a great deal if this mindset were common on NationStates.

5) Everyone does things not all of society would consider ok or 'normal'

As long as they don't do it in front of me, I don't give a shit.

2) So you advocate turning society into a mindless herd of sheep? Ok.
3) Yes, the current standards are holdovers from the puritans and the Victorian age.
4) "Being polite" is not the same as enforcing your mindset on how people should behave
5) Good. At least you're not completely in favor of a domineering state which dictates how everyone should act and behave.

[Greater-London]

Of course. Although I do wonder how often aside from the case brought up here this is actually enforced? I mean I remember in the summer going to festivals, the beech ETC a lot of women where topless and nobody cared and nobody was fined/arrested. It seems to me more of a social issue than a legal one.

[Lyrian Oligarchic Royal Empire]

Of course. Although I do wonder how often aside from the case brought up here this is actually enforced? I mean I remember in the summer going to festivals, the beech ETC a lot of women where topless and nobody cared and nobody was fined/arrested. It seems to me more of a social issue than a legal one.

In the US, you *can* be fined for public indecency for daring to possess enlarged mammies and no shirt.

[MERIZoC]

Of course. Although I do wonder how often aside from the case brought up here this is actually enforced? I mean I remember in the summer going to festivals, the beech ETC a lot of women where topless and nobody cared and nobody was fined/arrested. It seems to me more of a social issue than a legal one.

IIRC, laws change from state to state.

[Old Tyrannia]

2) So you advocate turning society into a mindless herd of sheep? Ok.

If wearing clothes in public makes one a mindless sheep, then yes, absolutely.

3) Yes, the current standards are holdovers from the puritans and the Victorian age.

Current standards are much more lax than those of the Victorian era. I would love Victorian attitudes to proper dress to be the norm, but they're not and I live with that.

4) "Being polite" is not the same as enforcing your mindset on how people should behave

It's not merely my mindset, it is the widely accepted, socially correct way to behave. Society is structured on rules, etiquette and social conventions; dismiss those and society breaks down.

5) Good. At least you're not completely in favor of a domineering state which dictates how everyone should act and behave.

I'm not in favour of a domineering state at all. I'm in favour of a less individualistic, more conservative and courteous society.

[Dain II Ironfoot]

I personally don't care to see anyone shirtless in public, but I think it'd be fair for anyone to not wear shirts if they so desire.

In all places where acceptable, I don't want people not wearing shirts into restaurants (that have a form of dress expectations, I'm not talking McDonald's here) or such. There should still be the expected social courtesies enforceable on private property.

I don't think that would be an issue though as restourants can refuse them. Its just a matter of keeping hygenestandards high.

Why on earth should i explain myself for your redicilous claims?

You can dismiss my arguments as "redicilous" [sic] all you like, but doing so is not a replacement for an actual counterargument.

"you are part of a society in which social convention and etiquette regard female shirtlessness as inappropriate"
You obviously hate the ones that live their own lives the way they wan to. Instead you prefer to see some black and white slavery where everybody followes the "rules"

Yeah, imagine a society where people didn't do whatever they wanted to whenever they wanted to, but followed rules and thought about other people. How lame would that be?

Alot of stuff used to be taboo once, but aren't anymore (tattoo's, divorce, not going to church, Fornication ect.), Even Incest is becoming more and more accepted, so please tell me the true reason why you hate women without a shirt, cause the whole "taboo" reason is just a pathetic one.

I also happen to be in favour of people covering their tattoos up in public. None of the other things you mentioned would directly affect me if I were to pass by the person in the street, but if the person were shirtless I'd notice and being brought up in a culture where shirtlessness is a social taboo, that would make me feel uncomfortable. There is a world of difference between something which is someone else's private business and acting or dressing a certain way in public where people have one's personal choice to run around half naked thrown in their face, whether they like it or not.

2) Someone being topless harms nobody

It makes other people feel uncomfortable, which is harming them in a way.

3) The current standards of dress are extremely new in human history, they are not old at all.

Just because what is now considered polite was not always considered polite does not mean that we should dispense with politeness altogether.

4) Social etiquette based on "because it is what it is" is a very bad argument. Social etiquette also used to dictate the hanging of thieves, the stoning of adulterers and the burning of witches.

What this statement tells me is that you are unaware of what etiquette means and equate it with societal attitudes in general.

5) Unless society is now a hive-mind, by your definition everyone is anti-social in some way.

I don't follow.

1) I'm not going to make a counterargument for something that isn't even a real argument.
2) Pretty damn lame as that country would be the first to turn into a dictatorship, becouse you know, follow the rules...
3) Ah, now i get your problem, you just want things your way and you don't want to take other people's wishes into account becouse they make you feel uncomfortable. In such case, stay indoors and don't come out. Things will change eventually wether you like it or not. Everybody has things he/she doesn't feel comfortable with but that doesn't mean they are against it or that they would forbid it. Just that it makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean it makes everybody uncomfortable. If we should make everything illegal becouse somebody feels uncomfortable with it then we could pretty much make everything illegal.

[Stormwind-City]

2) So you advocate turning society into a mindless herd of sheep? Ok.

If wearing clothes in public makes one a mindless sheep, then yes, absolutely.

3) Yes, the current standards are holdovers from the puritans and the Victorian age.

Current standards are much more lax than those of the Victorian era. I would love Victorian attitudes to proper dress to be the norm, but they're not and I live with that.

4) "Being polite" is not the same as enforcing your mindset on how people should behave

It's not merely my mindset, it is the widely accepted, socially correct way to behave. Society is structured on rules, etiquette and social conventions; dismiss those and society breaks down.

5) Good. At least you're not completely in favor of a domineering state which dictates how everyone should act and behave.

I'm not in favour of a domineering state at all. I'm in favour of a less individualistic, more conservative and courteous society.

2) This mindset of 'everyone must conform' leads to exactly that
3) Yes, and the standards would be different for the better if people back then weren't so ignorant and close-minded
4) Society can be wrong, and it can change. This false dichotomy that if society changes the downfall of the social order will occur is stupid. Sometimes the only way to change society is to do things people don't like.
5) Individuality is freedom, conservatism is relative and bad for social progression, 'courtesy' is subjective and in my opinion also a social road block.

[Twilight Imperium]

I'm bowled over by your spectacular debating skills.

I'm saying the same thing you are, but more efficiently.

[Aahmerica]

Because I like breasts, like, a lot, ever since i was little. If women were to walk around topless, I'd stare. Therefore, I'd never leave the house.
God forbid I offend someone.

Well, being a lech is rather offensive, yes. Maybe you should learn how to behave in a civilized society.

I'd rather shut myself away rather than change for society.
Fuck people.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

Well, being a lech is rather offensive, yes. Maybe you should learn how to behave in a civilized society.

I'd rather shut myself away rather than change for society.
Fuck people.

Acting with basic civility should not be a change of character for someone. It should be common sense.

[Independent State AF]

Ofcourse they should :B
If for no other reason than I get to oogle.
Hehehehe.

[Kainesia]

OH HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Lucasfjalla]

If they want, let them go.
But I believe it less of a double standart and more of a cultural quirk.

[Shamhnan Insir]

In reading the article mentioned on the front end of this thread, I find it strange how the author argues that males going shirtless is somehow sexist. I don't tip-toe around the place and worry about who I could possibly offend by the colour of my shirt or even my shirtlessness. And to be honest my brain doesn't have the time or energy to worry over possible moral dilemmas of shirts.

In the words of Saxton Hale : Shirts are to damn constricting!

[Dyakovo]

In reading the article mentioned on the front end of this thread, I find it strange how the author argues that males going shirtless is somehow sexist. I don't tip-toe around the place and worry about who I could possibly offend by the colour of my shirt or even my shirtlessness. And to be honest my brain doesn't have the time or energy to worry over possible moral dilemmas of shirts.

In the words of Saxton Hale : Shirts are to damn constricting!

You seriously don't see how men being allowed to go shirtless while women are not in the exact same situation is a sexist policy?

[Grave_n_idle]

If they want, let them go.
But I believe it less of a double standart and more of a cultural quirk.

It's possible to be both. It may be a cultural quirk, but it's definitely a double standard.

[The Alexanderians]

I always find it amusing how people from the US (not all but alot) are obsessed with breasts compared to people from (not all but alot) Europe.
Breasts are breasts, nothing to be obsessed with nor is there anything special about them. Women should just be allowed to walk topless, after three summers nobody will notice it anymore.

You assume however that every woman (or at least most of them) would choose to go topless if they were allowed to, the fact is many of them wouldn't feel comfortable doing so.

[Keyboard Warriors]

I always find it amusing how people from the US (not all but alot) are obsessed with breasts compared to people from (not all but alot) Europe.
Breasts are breasts, nothing to be obsessed with nor is there anything special about them. Women should just be allowed to walk topless, after three summers nobody will notice it anymore.

You assume however that every woman (or at least most of them) would choose to go topless if they were allowed to, the fact is many of them wouldn't feel comfortable doing so.

^This x100000. All through the thread, people have treated female clothing like something worn only through regulation and not personal choice.