A view of conservatives, from a conservative

[Jute]

Its just, even atheists, have a faith. they have a faith there is no god

It would be nice if conservatives could go even a paragraph without lying about and insulting their enemies.

While I agree with the general sentiment of your post, I don't understand how he insulted anyone in that line? Is being accused of having a "faith" in atheism offensive to some people now?

[Christainville]

Its just, in a 21st century world, where women's rights is a huge political topic, we also take up for a culture that endorses the beating of women that are raped.

What the fuck does this have to do with your previous sentence? Why is this not in a separate paragraph if you're moving on to a new topic.

So, do we accept what's behind to move forward?

What does this even mean?

This is just one version of how we move forward but bring what's behind us with it and call it a future.

What?

What the fuck is this? Learn to quote properly please.

Well, look at it. Most times conservatives are called old world, or that we don't move forward, any number of things that would tie us to a old mindset of thinking. At the same time Islam is considered conservative, and practice a lot of things that we wouldn't see as alright under human right laws and what not, but they are still accepted as a part of it. So, do their human rights violations and actions, and ways of life stop anyone from accepting them into the 21st century world? In a very liberal, progressive world, that has a goal of taking a select old world system with them? Its interesting because they way they do things is the opposite of what progressives would see as progress would accept as being modern. Now, if I said this about a Christian, then we can outlaw, and say bad thing, and do what ever; if it was Islam, we just need to progress them and bring them into the 21st century. Also, anyone against this now has a mental issue called Islamaphobic.

Nobody has suggested that Muslims should be allowed to treat women like shit. Nobody has suggested that telling Muslims they have to treat women like people in a way that secular societies deem acceptable is Islamophobic. Additionally, it's not like Islam has a monopoly on treating women like shit given the tendency for conservatives and Christians to do much the same and encourage this very same behaviour. Acting like it's only Islam or only Muslims who are sexist or like they are inherently so (or more sexist than other extreme religious or conservative groups) is definitely Islamophobic.

So, that's what I meant by that.

You didn't say it especially clearly in the first place and your second attempt wasn't much of an improvement. I suggest that you organize your thoughts a little before you write.

Just to show, I can quote using this way.

Also, in media, politics, a lot of things. We have turned somewhat of a blind eye to Islamic actions, we barely call Islamic terrorist, Islamic terrorist, and it matters because they say they do it in the name of Allah, for Islam. I even saw a school work paper that gave students, public school for the record not a private one, a worksheet telling them Muslims had a stronger faith then Christians, and that they were peaceful, basically giving a view of one religion over another, which I thought violated a secular education program. It would be totally different if this were a private school that ahs a right to base its education off its faith. Its things like this were you can ask the question, is this just media being media, or really a format of indoctrination going on. Because one of the biggest things out there is Islam, and I have, shockingly, Islamic friends, and even they are tired of this media overload, this idea that the whole world needs to help them out, and they have a greater stance against certain Islamic actions then other groups do. Now, if that doesn't say something, idk what does....

[Dakini]

It would be nice if conservatives could go even a paragraph without lying about and insulting their enemies.

While I agree with the general sentiment of your post, I don't understand how he insulted anyone in that line? Is being accused of having a "faith" in atheism offensive to some people now?

It's definitely pretty insulting to insist that people think a certain way when they definitely don't.

[Christainville]

well, its a honest claim. Atheists do have a faith, because its a faith that their is no god. That simple.

And simply wrong.

Is faith such a terrible thing to you that you feel the need to force it on to your enemies?

actually I didn't force it on them, I just said the term, I didn't demand they use it. Its just they believe there is no god. Faith, in terms, is just the belief in something. So, I wasn't implying its a church of atheism, or sects of atheism, but that the faith is there is no god. Now, anything to add?

[Jute]

While I agree with the general sentiment of your post, I don't understand how he insulted anyone in that line? Is being accused of having a "faith" in atheism offensive to some people now?

It's definitely pretty insulting to insist that people think a certain way when they definitely don't.

What, like having faith in something is a bad thing? Self-confidence is nothing else but having faith in yourself and your abilities, too, and that's usually seen as a good thing.

[Christainville]

It's definitely pretty insulting to insist that people think a certain way when they definitely don't.

What, like having faith in something is a bad thing? Self-confidence is nothing else but having faith in yourself and your abilities, too, and that's usually seen as a good thing.

Perfect way of putting it.

[Sun Wukong]

It would be nice if conservatives could go even a paragraph without lying about and insulting their enemies.

While I agree with the general sentiment of your post, I don't understand how he insulted anyone in that line? Is being accused of having a "faith" in atheism offensive to some people now?

Yes.

Faith is believing strongly in something for no justifiable reason, and refusing to reconsider you position. In most contexts it's a bad thing.

[Sun Wukong]

And simply wrong.

Is faith such a terrible thing to you that you feel the need to force it on to your enemies?

actually I didn't force it on them, I just said the term, I didn't demand they use it. Its just they believe there is no god. Faith, in terms, is just the belief in something. So, I wasn't implying its a church of atheism, or sects of atheism, but that the faith is there is no god. Now, anything to add?

Yeah. You don't know what words mean.

Faith is not "just the belief in something" I don't have faith that the sun is shining, and to say that I do trivializes faith. So now you've managed to trample religion and atheism both, in an effort to equivocate them. Good job.

[Christainville]

While I agree with the general sentiment of your post, I don't understand how he insulted anyone in that line? Is being accused of having a "faith" in atheism offensive to some people now?

Yes.

Faith is believing strongly in something for no justifiable reason, and refusing to reconsider you position. In most contexts it's a bad thing.

Now, I will full disagree with that.

Example: I should have faith in the fact I have a right not to be poisoned. If I don't have a faith in, I am kinda saying anyone HAS the right poison me, from my personal view. So, I think faith, in general, is good. Now, something we put faith in can be bad, but it really depends on what the faith is used for.

[Sun Wukong]

Yes.

Faith is believing strongly in something for no justifiable reason, and refusing to reconsider you position. In most contexts it's a bad thing.

Now, I will full disagree with that.

Example: I should have faith in the fact I have a right not to be poisoned. If I don't have a faith in, I am kinda saying anyone HAS the right poison me, from my personal view. So, I think faith, in general, is good. Now, something we put faith in can be bad, but it really depends on what the faith is used for.

"faith in the fact that I have a right not to be poisoned?"

You like to take things in very odd directions. But if it's a fact, you don't need to have faith in it. Facts are demonstrable.

[Jute]

What, like having faith in something is a bad thing? Self-confidence is nothing else but having faith in yourself and your abilities, too, and that's usually seen as a good thing.

Perfect way of putting it.

Ha, I knew I would of course end up getting the support of conservative Christians here... Not sure how to feel about that

[New DeCapito]

Yes.

Faith is believing strongly in something for no justifiable reason, and refusing to reconsider you position. In most contexts it's a bad thing.

Now, I will full disagree with that.

Example: I should have faith in the fact I have a right not to be poisoned. If I don't have a faith in, I am kinda saying anyone HAS the right poison me, from my personal view. So, I think faith, in general, is good. Now, something we put faith in can be bad, but it really depends on what the faith is used for.

Eh, no. Because you don't have to have faith in something to make it true, necessarily. For example, I can know I have a right not to be poisoned.

[Dakini]

What the fuck is this? Learn to quote properly please.


Nobody has suggested that Muslims should be allowed to treat women like shit. Nobody has suggested that telling Muslims they have to treat women like people in a way that secular societies deem acceptable is Islamophobic. Additionally, it's not like Islam has a monopoly on treating women like shit given the tendency for conservatives and Christians to do much the same and encourage this very same behaviour. Acting like it's only Islam or only Muslims who are sexist or like they are inherently so (or more sexist than other extreme religious or conservative groups) is definitely Islamophobic.


You didn't say it especially clearly in the first place and your second attempt wasn't much of an improvement. I suggest that you organize your thoughts a little before you write.

Just to show, I can quote using this way.

How very nice for you.

Also, in media, politics, a lot of things.

This is not a sentence. There is no verb here.

We have turned somewhat of a blind eye to Islamic actions, we barely call Islamic terrorist, Islamic terrorist, and it matters because they say they do it in the name of Allah, for Islam.

What the fuck are you talking about? First of all, your grammar here is terrible, but I assume that you meant to say:

We have turned somewhat of a blind eye to Islamic actions,. wWe barely call Islamic terrorists,Islamic terrorist, terrorists, like we should. and iIt matters because they say they do it in the name of Allah, for Islam.

Which still doesn't make a lot of sense. For starters, people are all too willing to say that anything a Muslim does is terrorism. Indeed, when a Muslim does something and a white guy does a similar thing, the actions of the former are likely to be called terrorism while the actions of the latter are more likely to be attributed to mental illness or something else.

I even saw a school work paper that gave students, public school for the record not a private one, a worksheet telling them Muslims had a stronger faith then Christians, and that they were peaceful, basically giving a view of one religion over another, which I thought violated a secular education program.

Anecdotes don't mean shit, give us some evidence that this happened.

Its things like this were you can ask the question, is this just media being media, or really a format of indoctrination going on.

If a school was actually doing what you claimed they were doing, there would be a news report because someone would have complained and when privileged Christians complain about Islam, they get attention in the news.

Because one of the biggest things out there is Islam, and I have, shockingly, Islamic friends, and even they are tired of this media overload, this idea that the whole world needs to help them out, and they have a greater stance against certain Islamic actions then other groups do.

One of the biggest things out there is Islam? Since when? It's certainly one of the most popular religions in the world, but religion isn't the biggest thing in the world. I also do not think that anyone has said we have to help Muslims out. Also, your claim that there is a "greater stance" against actions by Muslims is directly contradicting something you said earlier in your post about how Muslims were not deemed terrorists (unless your terrible phrasing just really made whatever point you were trying to make especially confusing).

Incidentally, referring to Muslims as "Islamic", which is an incorrect term to describe the people typically used by bigots and then claiming to have Muslim friends comes across a bit like "I'm not racist, I have black friends".

Now, if that doesn't say something, idk what does....

I don't even know what you were trying to say here, to be perfectly honest.

[Dakini]

It's definitely pretty insulting to insist that people think a certain way when they definitely don't.

What, like having faith in something is a bad thing? Self-confidence is nothing else but having faith in yourself and your abilities, too, and that's usually seen as a good thing.

Because he's not attributing something like self-confidence, he's saying this:

And simply wrong.

Is faith such a terrible thing to you that you feel the need to force it on to your enemies?

actually I didn't force it on them, I just said the term, I didn't demand they use it. Its just they believe there is no god. Faith, in terms, is just the belief in something. So, I wasn't implying its a church of atheism, or sects of atheism, but that the faith is there is no god. Now, anything to add?

And the thing is, more than one person has already explained to him that atheists do not have faith in the absence of a god. Atheists simply do not believe in any gods. Some atheists might believe that there are no gods, but this is not at all the same thing as just not believing in a god (which is the position that most atheists have).

So yes, he's insulting people by claiming to know what they believe even after he has been corrected on this point.

[Sun Wukong]

It's definitely pretty insulting to insist that people think a certain way when they definitely don't.

What, like having faith in something is a bad thing? Self-confidence is nothing else but having faith in yourself and your abilities, too, and that's usually seen as a good thing.

Confidence and faith are related concepts, but faith is a bit stronger. I'm actually quite glad that most people don't have faith in themselves in the sense of Martin Luther's justification by faith, because there are plenty of things that most people aren't qualified to do. And shouldn't try.

Besides which, I believe in the Kamina who believes in me.

[Grave_n_idle]

Your theology about satan and lucifer (two different entities) is flawed and non-scriptural.

Please elaborate?

It's not really on the topic, but quite simply:

Satan is not 'the master of evil'. Lucifer was not the name of an angel. The two are also two separate entities. Satan didn't want to be god, or get kicked out for it.

etc.

[Jute]

What, like having faith in something is a bad thing? Self-confidence is nothing else but having faith in yourself and your abilities, too, and that's usually seen as a good thing.

Confidence and faith are related concepts, but faith is a bit stronger. I'm actually quite glad that most people don't have faith in themselves in the sense of Martin Luther's justification by faith, because there are plenty of things that most people aren't qualified to do. And shouldn't try.

Besides which, I believe in the Kamina who believes in me.

But faith can also be used to good things, can't it? Having faith in a better future when you're going through rough times, for example. It can give you hope and optimism, and encourage you to carry on with things and not just give up.

[Sun Wukong]

Confidence and faith are related concepts, but faith is a bit stronger. I'm actually quite glad that most people don't have faith in themselves in the sense of Martin Luther's justification by faith, because there are plenty of things that most people aren't qualified to do. And shouldn't try.

Besides which, I believe in the Kamina who believes in me.

But faith can also be used to good things, can't it? Having faith in a better future when you're going through rough times, for example. It can give you hope and optimism, and encourage you to carry on with things and not just give up.

I did say it was a bad thing in most contexts. Not always.

But, for sake of argument:
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.
To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition
that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears
of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that
chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower."

This applies to religion, but also obviously relates to the faith you describe.

[Jute]

But faith can also be used to good things, can't it? Having faith in a better future when you're going through rough times, for example. It can give you hope and optimism, and encourage you to carry on with things and not just give up.

I did say it was a bad thing in most contexts. Not always.

But, for sake of argument:
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness.
To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition
that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears
of which religion is the halo.

Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that
chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower."

This applies to religion, but also obviously relates to the faith you describe.

Huh. Well, I agree to some extent. Though I also believe that religion can be a nice life-enhancing flower itself, too, as long as you or someone else doesn't make a chain out of it. After all, just because you believe in an afterlife doesn't mean that you aren't going to live your life on earth to its fullest.

[Sarigen]

These are all personal opinions and it's nice to have them, but they're ultimately just that. I base a lot of my 'beliefs' in hard statistical and/or peer reviewed evidence. I recommend this.

[Jute]

These are all personal opinions and it's nice to have them, but they're ultimately just that. I base a lot of my 'beliefs' in hard statistical and/or peer reviewed evidence. I recommend this.

Not everything can be measured easily, though. Feelings are more able to guide your actions in most places (as backed by science)

[Dakini]

These are all personal opinions and it's nice to have them, but they're ultimately just that. I base a lot of my 'beliefs' in hard statistical and/or peer reviewed evidence. I recommend this.

Not everything can be measured easily, though. Feelings are more able to guide your actions in most places (as backed by science)

...that doesn't mean it's a good idea to base one's understanding of the world on one's feelings.

[The Black Forrest]

I wanted to talk on a few thing as a Christian and conservative, that currently are things I see going on daily.

Hmmmm. So this is about Religion.

1st off, separation of church and state is used and abused by both sides. In political talks, I hear a lot of more left leaning people say instead of doing dumb things like protesting over abortion and what not, why wont Christians solve world issues, like hunger and what not.

Well? That's not really abusing 1st amendment.

It's a valid question. If the problems of hunger and "what not" were addressed, the need for abortion declines. Even then abortion is not due to hungar and what not. You might want to look at the reasons why women go this route.

Well, for the record, some do, but they are hated because they are religious, Christian, in nature, which then makes them old world and un effective, so they want to provide a result that the world demands but wont let them give, so in a sense how can they do anything? Now, even as a conservative,

I thought is was about conservatism. And that is a rather sweeping generalization.

I don't want faith being the whole base of politics. Faith should be a choice, not forced.

That's why we have the first amendment.

Its just, even atheists, have a faith. they have a faith there is no god, as we have a faith God leads us through out life.

You don't understand atheism.

So, we all have a faith in one way or another, ours just became the realization that there is more out there then just us. So, what does that have to do with church and state? Why would a Texas mayor order pastors give over sermons if this old world system had no power? If this church was fake and could do nothing, why would people demand separation of church and state, which leads to my second point.

2nd. Most Christians and conservatives are not scared, and do not have a phobia of Islam. One thing I notice, because we don't accept something, people equate it with a fear, but then when other people don't accept something, its a civil right? Well, I wont lie, there are some people that miss represent Christians and conservatives. Its just, in a 21st century world, where women's rights is a huge political topic, we also take up for a culture that endorses the beating of women that are raped. So, do we accept what's behind to move forward? This is just one version of how we move forward but bring what's behind us with it and call it a future. Its not that I or any other conservative is scared of a Islamic person, its just we cant over look the bad things that are happening, the same as I can say with some people that call themselves "Christians" but have a hard time actually showing the love and compassion Christ commanded. Yet, does the love and compassion demand that you over look things that are wrong, things that are dangerous, things that cause issues? Nope, but you should reprimand in love of another person, and not in hate, and that's the things so many have failed at.

Wow. Your arguments just validated my appreciation of the establishment clause.

Other then that your point is what? Hate the sin; love the sinner? That's a bunch of bullshit.

3rd and my final thing. This one will get me in a lot of trouble with the more liberal side of politics. Civil rights didn't come from man, because if they did, nothing would be civil.

If we legislate morality, you push people to do the opposite, but do you over look un moral actions, nope.

So if we legislate everybody is going to be hetro, the will go gay?

Seriously? You have some rather odd and well immature views of human nature.

Through out history, what was defined as civil was ever changing, is that what we would want in our nations, in our cities?

What? You don't like women being equal? Blacks being equal? Asians being equal? Irish? Well except them.

There are things that are universal and have remained pretty consistent. Kindness for example.

To have a ever changing format of what's right and wrong, what acceptable, to only have freedom and justice if your on the side of the political party that won the most recently election.

Times change and people change. Should we keep lamp lighters? Hanging for horse theft? Rated as 2/3s.

A example of this is the recent Indiana bill, using religious freedom, discrimination occurs, and that's what religion should not be used for.

And yet people do it all the time. Look at your comments about Islam.

My question is, do we become so secular and so accepting, that we block out groups and views that can do good, but because of the name we don't allow them to do anything?

Nobody legislates you from helping people.

Since when did the argument turn into it's ok for me to be an asshole to you because of my religion?

We allowed Islam into the 21st century with out changing a lot,

So kind of you. Just ignore that bit about oh you know the crusades and the inquisition.

all I ask is that Christians be allowed the same with out chaining their faith to meet the current political views.

Your Religion is your own thing. Where you go wrong is expecting everybody else to follow it.

Because, in the end, what good is faith if every other person determines it, except a unchanging standard that is the headline for what you believe in.

Bad people have faith as well.

That's why for me, Christianity and conservative ideas, will never be split. Its true, their are liberal Christians, and some liberal ideas work fine, make a good economy, make a good place to live in. Yet, its the idea of non-chaining standards, morals that help some one live a good life, and the belief that by doing this, we make things better in the hope for a brighter future. And for me, that should actually be conservatism.

Oh so everybody should be following your Religious moral code.

God Bless the establishment clause.

I know the more liberal side will hate everything I wrote her probably,

Hate is not a liberal thing. Many many conservatives use liberal as a dirty word rather then a description.

And you really don't understand liberals.

but hey, I want a honest discussion, a honest view,

No you don't.

pull apart what I said, it should stand firm.

If your views are based on faith.....

So, my question is, the things I wrote down, should that be real conservatism, should it be accepted,

"Real" Conservatism? As long as you aren't bothering/segmenting/etc other people. I don't care.

in a 21st century world should Christianity play a part? Lets have a honest discussion, and lets try to keep it civil with out a lot of cursing and what not.

Your op is misleading. This is about your religion.

[Norstal]

It would be nice if conservatives could go even a paragraph without lying about and insulting their enemies.

While I agree with the general sentiment of your post, I don't understand how he insulted anyone in that line? Is being accused of having a "faith" in atheism offensive to some people now?

The same way it's offensive to some Christians when you call them polytheist. It's ignorant.

[Jute]

While I agree with the general sentiment of your post, I don't understand how he insulted anyone in that line? Is being accused of having a "faith" in atheism offensive to some people now?

The same way it's offensive to some Christians when you call them polytheist. It's ignorant.

Ah, so it wasn't the word that was offensive, but more the ignorance. Thanks.