Abortion: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

[Terrordome]

I really hate abortion and to be honest it really disgusts me.

But I still think women should be unrestricted in their options regarding abortion. I suppose you could consider me hard pro-choice despite my personal beliefs.

That's because I recognise that others hold different beliefs to me that are valid. I wouldn't outlaw abortion because I dont believe in imposing my morality on everyone. I would say to men: sorry you don't get a vote on this, it's not your issue no matter how you bend it. And to women: if you dont approve of abortion don't have one.

[The Five Galaxies]

I really hate abortion and to be honest it really disgusts me.

But I still think women should be unrestricted in their options regarding abortion. I suppose you could consider me hard pro-choice despite my personal beliefs.

That's because I recognise that others hold different beliefs to me that are valid. I wouldn't outlaw abortion because I dont believe in imposing my morality on everyone. I would say to men: sorry you don't get a vote on this, it's not your issue no matter how you bend it. And to women: if you dont approve of abortion don't have one.

Can men not even be supportive of a woman's right to choose?

[Bottle]

I really hate abortion and to be honest it really disgusts me.

But I still think women should be unrestricted in their options regarding abortion. I suppose you could consider me hard pro-choice despite my personal beliefs.

That's because I recognise that others hold different beliefs to me that are valid. I wouldn't outlaw abortion because I dont believe in imposing my morality on everyone. I would say to men: sorry you don't get a vote on this, it's not your issue no matter how you bend it. And to women: if you dont approve of abortion don't have one.

Can men not even be supportive of a woman's right to choose?

Sure you can, just don't expect everyone to care.

Applies to most opinions in my experience.

[Genivaria]

No there's not.

One less baby could mean one less scientist, one less criminal, one less labourer, regardless, there's no denying a baby will have at least some impact in the future.

Or one less rapist, murderer, tyrant or terrorist.
Hypothetical what ifs are irrelevant.

[Ascenon]

I believe that it is their choice whether or not to have an abortion.

[Bottle]

One less baby could mean one less scientist, one less criminal, one less labourer, regardless, there's no denying a baby will have at least some impact in the future.

Or one less rapist, murderer, tyrant or terrorist.
Hypothetical what ifs are irrelevant.

Especially since carrying one pregnancy means that the woman can't become pregnant with the baby she would have conceived the following month, which would have grown up to be one more scientist/criminal/laborer/whatever. The hypothetical do indeed become rather silly.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Or one less rapist, murderer, tyrant or terrorist.
Hypothetical what ifs are irrelevant.

Especially since carrying one pregnancy means that the woman can't become pregnant with the baby she would have conceived the following month, which would have grown up to be one more scientist/criminal/laborer/whatever. The hypothetical do indeed become rather silly.

Some posters resort to that.

''What if you abort the babeeeehhhh!!!??? It won't have cake!''

''You might be killing the next Ahmadinejad!!''

''You may be killing the next scientist who discovers the cure for canceeeerrrrrr!''

[Terrordome]

I really hate abortion and to be honest it really disgusts me.

But I still think women should be unrestricted in their options regarding abortion. I suppose you could consider me hard pro-choice despite my personal beliefs.

That's because I recognise that others hold different beliefs to me that are valid. I wouldn't outlaw abortion because I dont believe in imposing my morality on everyone. I would say to men: sorry you don't get a vote on this, it's not your issue no matter how you bend it. And to women: if you dont approve of abortion don't have one.

Can men not even be supportive of a woman's right to choose?

Sorry that is not what I meant. I meant that even if I disapprove of it I am not directly affected (I am male with a bit of experience in this). Pregnant women are directly affected and it should be their personal choice about what they should do about it. No state and no man should decide it for them. They should act in accordance with whatever their beliefs and moral system is. Women should have this freedom. And this is an issue of freedom for 50% of our population.

[Genivaria]

I think it's okay depending on the circumstances. If Woman A and Woman B come up to me, and Woman A was raped and made pregnant by her rapist or can't afford to support a kid, and Woman B couldn't be bothered to use contraception, I'm going to let Woman A have the abortion, and not Woman B. Sure, it's your body, but you have to deal with the consequences of your actions. If you're irresponsible and then want someone else to do something about it, don't expect them to come running. If you aren't at fault, and you don't want the kid or can't have, sure. Additionally, if either mother or child's life is in danger, what has to be done should be done. If the kid's going to have some serious genetic disease that'll ruin it's life, you make the decision, I won't make it for you. If it's got a cleft palate or clubfoot, two correctable deformaties, no.

So you're okay with forcing a woman to have a child she doesn't want? As if there weren't enough unloved children in the orphanages. Assuming it doesnt end tossed away.
You helped bring one more unloved child into this world. Good job.

You know what would happen if every woman had control over when or even if the become a mother?
No child would ever be mistake.

[Libronyscien]

At this point I'm like fuck it.

Get an abortion. Or don't. I don't care.
It might be ending a life or it might not.
You care about saving lives, right? Then help women so they don't feel pressured into getting an abortion. Keep it legal to protect the percentage of women who get an abortion with a hanger. Some illegal abortions are done in a clinical environment, I know.
The comfort of the woman is irrelevant. The state can't tell us what we can and can't do with our bodies, right? Wrong. The state tells people what they can and can't do with their bodies all the time. Example: prostitution. We tell people we can't use their bodies for sex and receive money for it. (I'm for legalizing prostitution, by the way)

[Halnatorum]

Abortion = murder.

No its not.

Yes it is. If it wasn't murder a person who murders a pregnant woman would only be charged with one murder not two.

http://article.wn.com/view/2015/01/24/O ... tus_death/
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/o ... ederated=1

Thhe US government even recognizes fetuses as human beings: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_V ... olence_Act

So yes abortion is murder, every women who has terminated a pregnancy for any reason is guilty of murder.

Either you must accept that woman has an option to have or not to have kids

She does have that option without murder, adoption, not havinng sex, getting her tubes tied.

[Farnhamia]

No its not.

Yes it is. If it wasn't murder a person who murders a pregnant woman would only be charged with one murder not two.

http://article.wn.com/view/2015/01/24/O ... tus_death/
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/o ... ederated=1

Thhe US government even recognizes fetuses as human beings: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_V ... olence_Act

So yes abortion is murder, every women who has terminated a pregnancy for any reason is guilty of murder.

Either you must accept that woman has an option to have or not to have kids

She does have that option without murder, adoption, not havinng sex, getting her tubes tied.

Very well, what penalties would you prescribe for these women?

[Mavorpen]

No its not.

Yes it is. If it wasn't murder a person who murders a pregnant woman would only be charged with one murder not two.

http://article.wn.com/view/2015/01/24/O ... tus_death/
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/o ... ederated=1

Thhe US government even recognizes fetuses as human beings: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_V ... olence_Act

So yes abortion is murder, every women who has terminated a pregnancy for any reason is guilty of murder.

You might want to actually read your sources.

(c) Nothing in this section shall be construed to permit the prosecution—
(1) of any person for conduct relating to an abortion for which the consent of the pregnant woman, or a person authorized by law to act on her behalf, has been obtained or for which such consent is implied by law;

[Ifreann]

No its not.

Yes it is. If it wasn't murder a person who murders a pregnant woman would only be charged with one murder not two.

If it was murder then women who get abortions would be charged with murder.

http://article.wn.com/view/2015/01/24/Ohio_man_charged_with_murder_in_fetus_death/
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/o ... ederated=1

Thhe US government even recognizes fetuses as human beings: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_V ... olence_Act

So yes abortion is murder, every women who has terminated a pregnancy for any reason is guilty of murder.

So call the police on your local abortion clinic. See what happens.

[Halnatorum]

Very well, what penalties would you prescribe for these women?

Same as all murderers.

If it was murder then women who get abortions would be charged with murder.

So call the police on your local abortion clinic. See what happens.

A corrupt judicial system and corrupt/ineffectual federal system is the only reasons these murderers get away with it.

As for my calling the cops on my local abortion clinic, why would I call the cops on something that doesn't exist? If a woman wants to murder her child she has to drive at least 8 hours (depending on speed) to get to the closest one and that is in another jurisdiction.

[Russels Orbiting Teapot]

A corrupt judicial system and corrupt/ineffectual federal system is the only reasons these murderers get away with it.

As for my calling the cops on my local abortion clinic, why would I call the cops on something that doesn't exist? If a woman wants to murder her child she has to drive at least 8 hours (depending on speed) to get to the closest one and that is in another jurisdiction.

I don't suppose you'd like to argue why you feel this should be the case? Perhaps even present evidence?

[Fanosolia]

Abortion = murder.

What's worse, not giving the chance to be born, or have all parties involved go through some sort of financial, emotional, and mental hell? also, what about the medically necessary abortions?

[Ifreann]

If it was murder then women who get abortions would be charged with murder.

So call the police on your local abortion clinic. See what happens.

A corrupt judicial system and corrupt/ineffectual federal system is the only reasons these murderers get away with it.

The same system that passed the Unborn Victims Of Violence Act is corrupt and ineffectual?

As for my calling the cops on my local abortion clinic, why would I call the cops on something that doesn't exist? If a woman wants to murder her child she has to drive at least 8 hours (depending on speed) to get to the closest one and that is in another jurisdiction.

So call the police there. You're letting murderers go free by sitting here posting online instead of doing something to stop them.

[Desperate Measures]

A corrupt judicial system and corrupt/ineffectual federal system is the only reasons these murderers get away with it.

The same system that passed the Unborn Victims Of Violence Act is corrupt and ineffectual?

As for my calling the cops on my local abortion clinic, why would I call the cops on something that doesn't exist? If a woman wants to murder her child she has to drive at least 8 hours (depending on speed) to get to the closest one and that is in another jurisdiction.

So call the police there. You're letting murderers go free by sitting here posting online instead of doing something to stop them.

He could make a sign, too. It's good use your creative energy.

[Ifreann]

The same system that passed the Unborn Victims Of Violence Act is corrupt and ineffectual?


So call the police there. You're letting murderers go free by sitting here posting online instead of doing something to stop them.

He could make a sign, too. It's good use your creative energy.

Maybe paint a nice picture on it. Something cheery, so people know you're trying to help them. A happy flower, perhaps.

[Ashmoria]

Besides, other than sperm, what else does a man brings to a pregnancy? His body isn't the one doing the job of feeding and incubating a fetus. His body isn't the one deforming for 9 months. His life is not the one that could be in peril if the pregnancy and labor become complicated.

You never heard of conjoined twins, did you, Ashmoria?
And Nanatsu- that is a strawman.

what does that have to do with the topic? are women to be considered conjoined to their fetuses? seems a little loony to me.


and you didn't answer my question about what you meant when you started this chain. ill check to see if you responded later.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

The same system that passed the Unborn Victims Of Violence Act is corrupt and ineffectual?


So call the police there. You're letting murderers go free by sitting here posting online instead of doing something to stop them.

He could make a sign, too. It's good use your creative energy.

I'd watch that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vS5zR2w9VM

[Ashmoria]

And she takes responsibility and makes the fetus go away by getting an abortion, just as I would do the same for a parasitic worm residing in my intestines.

But that means that the unborn is killed. And that would be entirely the mothers' responsibility. And because there is another possibility to end this with both living...
And that worm is a not a human. The fetus is.

there is a POTENTIAL other outcome.

[Desperate Measures]

He could make a sign, too. It's good use your creative energy.

Maybe paint a nice picture on it. Something cheery, so people know you're trying to help them. A happy flower, perhaps.

That would be so sweet and thoughtful!

[Ashmoria]

Not just that, it lives off of her body. Even when brain activity begins. It uses her body for nourishment, and as dwelling. I think it is very much in point to say that until it is out of her body, a woman has all the right in the world to remove said fetus if she so wishes.

Short for I agree with you.

I'm honestly a little more uncertain about it once brain activity begins. I suspect that if brain activity somehow began at conception, I would still fall begrudgingly on the bodily autonomy side.

Fortunately, pregnant women have a 24-28 week window before their fetus becomes anything that even begins to be a person in which they can get rid of it if that's their decision, so it's less of an issue, and I would want to strongly encourage, or perhaps require, pregnant women to make their decision in advance of that deadline.

Also fortunately our laws here in the US already line up with this pretty well. I've seen scientific evidence that makes me think it might be prudent to move the third trimester rule to 25 weeks, but only because the vast majority of abortions happen before 20 weeks.

sometimes a problem comes up after that. sometimes it takes that long to find a place to get a later abortion.