Abortion: Pro-Life or Pro-Choice?

[Ashmoria]

I think if it's before the third trimester, it's rape, or it's incest, abortion is acceptable.

Why incest?

and what counts as incest? in some states if you have sex with your sons wife, that's incest (for example) in some states its first cousins. in some states both of those things are AOK.

[Desperate Measures]

He could make a sign, too. It's good use your creative energy.

I'd watch that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vS5zR2w9VM

That was awesome

[Libronyscien]

I'd watch that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vS5zR2w9VM

That was awesome

It was.

[Ifreann]

Why incest?

and what counts as incest? in some states if you have sex with your sons wife, that's incest (for example)

At the very least it's impolite, I would think.

in some states its first cousins. in some states both of those things are AOK.

Truly these are the great questions which shall define our time. Which relatives are we allowed to get jiggy with?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

So how much time should the woman do for the "murders" that don't fit with your exemptions?

Let's use a common example: A woman gets an abortion because she can't afford another baby. What's her sentence? 20 years? Life? Could she perhaps become eligible for parole after menopause?

Extending this question to the other folks who are arguing that a fertilized egg is a baby. How much time should the woman do?

A common example? More like a common case:

http://news.yahoo.com/el-salvador-woman ... 0AkxInnIlQ

[WestRedMaple]

No its not.

Yes it is. If it wasn't murder a person who murders a pregnant woman would only be charged with one murder not two.

http://article.wn.com/view/2015/01/24/O ... tus_death/
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/o ... ederated=1

Thhe US government even recognizes fetuses as human beings: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_V ... olence_Act

So yes abortion is murder, every women who has terminated a pregnancy for any reason is guilty of murder.

Either you must accept that woman has an option to have or not to have kids

She does have that option without murder, adoption, not havinng sex, getting her tubes tied.

Nope, not murder by the very definition of the word.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

No its not.

Yes it is. If it wasn't murder a person who murders a pregnant woman would only be charged with one murder not two.

http://article.wn.com/view/2015/01/24/O ... tus_death/
http://www.wsoctv.com/news/news/local/o ... ederated=1

Thhe US government even recognizes fetuses as human beings: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_V ... olence_Act

So yes abortion is murder, every women who has terminated a pregnancy for any reason is guilty of murder.

Either you must accept that woman has an option to have or not to have kids

She does have that option without murder, adoption, not havinng sex, getting her tubes tied.

Murder means something entirely different than what you are using it for.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Especially since carrying one pregnancy means that the woman can't become pregnant with the baby she would have conceived the following month, which would have grown up to be one more scientist/criminal/laborer/whatever. The hypothetical do indeed become rather silly.

Some posters resort to that.

''What if you abort the babeeeehhhh!!!??? It won't have cake!''

''You might be killing the next Ahmadinejad!!''

''You may be killing the next scientist who discovers the cure for canceeeerrrrrr!''

The hilarious part is that we have countries right in the western hemisphere that have abortion criminalized.

But nobody focuses on that. For some reason pro-life Americans believe that their policy is better when it's the same fucking thing.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Some posters resort to that.

''What if you abort the babeeeehhhh!!!??? It won't have cake!''

''You might be killing the next Ahmadinejad!!''

''You may be killing the next scientist who discovers the cure for canceeeerrrrrr!''

The hilarious part is that we have countries right in the western hemisphere that have abortion criminalized.

But nobody focuses on that. For some reason pro-life Americans believe that their policy is better when it's the same fucking thing.

Denial is universal.

[Luminesa]

This'll end well.

No, a fetus is not a person. Yes, a fetus is made of human cells. No, it does not think. Yes, a woman has bodily sovereignty.

There we go. Preemptive strike.

Hello!

First of all, I LOVE TOTORO!!! I saw your icon a while back, and I thought that was so cute! XD

Second, to start the conversation, I am 100% pro-life and proud of it.

So, I have asked multiple people, and nobody has given me a solid answer: what defines a person? Does thinking define a person? If I do a thoughtless act, like scribble a random drawing on a piece of paper (as I do often), or if I bleat like a sheep in class for no reason, does that make me any less human?

Now, here's my thing with "sovereignty". Let's say you make the same idea apply for something else:
You are a sergeant in the army. Let's say you have a new recruit join your unit. You don't like him. You think he's annoying. Does that give you the right to kill him?

(I'm not quite sure if that was the best analogy, but it's basically the same concept.)

[Amareval]

Do you celebrate your birthday 9 months early? It should be the womans choice.

[Edgy Opinions]

Do you celebrate your birthday 9 months early? It should be the womans choice.

I'm actually Pisces/Aries (?) - like the protagonists of Mawaru Penguindrum O.o - rather than Sagittarius.

Now THAT is fucked.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

This'll end well.

No, a fetus is not a person. Yes, a fetus is made of human cells. No, it does not think. Yes, a woman has bodily sovereignty.

There we go. Preemptive strike.

Hello!

First of all, I LOVE TOTORO!!! I saw your icon a while back, and I thought that was so cute! XD

Second, to start the conversation, I am 100% pro-life and proud of it.

So, I have asked multiple people, and nobody has given me a solid answer: what defines a person? Does thinking define a person? If I do a thoughtless act, like scribble a random drawing on a piece of paper (as I do often), or if I bleat like a sheep in class for no reason, does that make me any less human?

Now, here's my thing with "sovereignty". Let's say you make the same idea apply for something else:
You are a sergeant in the army. Let's say you have a new recruit join your unit. You don't like him. You think he's annoying. Does that give you the right to kill him?

(I'm not quite sure if that was the best analogy, but it's basically the same concept.)

Your concept of sovereignty is very very wrong. Sovereignty is more along the lines of: if I am an individual with certain rights with society, including that of self-sovereignty, then why should I be forced to, say, donate a kidney to someone even if I don't like them? If sovereignty is irrelevant, does that mean the state can force me to donate my kidney even at the expense of my health?

Also, I'd like to ask, what is personhood for you?

[Neutraligon]

This'll end well.

No, a fetus is not a person. Yes, a fetus is made of human cells. No, it does not think. Yes, a woman has bodily sovereignty.

There we go. Preemptive strike.

Hello!

First of all, I LOVE TOTORO!!! I saw your icon a while back, and I thought that was so cute! XD

Second, to start the conversation, I am 100% pro-life and proud of it.

So, I have asked multiple people, and nobody has given me a solid answer: what defines a person? Does thinking define a person? If I do a thoughtless act, like scribble a random drawing on a piece of paper (as I do often), or if I bleat like a sheep in class for no reason, does that make me any less human?

Now, here's my thing with "sovereignty". Let's say you make the same idea apply for something else:
You are a sergeant in the army. Let's say you have a new recruit join your unit. You don't like him. You think he's annoying. Does that give you the right to kill him?

(I'm not quite sure if that was the best analogy, but it's basically the same concept.)

Being born and not having died defines a person.
No, but then you are interfering with the bodily sovereignty of the soldier. Fetuses do not have bodily sovereignty.

[WestRedMaple]

This'll end well.

No, a fetus is not a person. Yes, a fetus is made of human cells. No, it does not think. Yes, a woman has bodily sovereignty.

There we go. Preemptive strike.

Hello!

First of all, I LOVE TOTORO!!! I saw your icon a while back, and I thought that was so cute! XD

Second, to start the conversation, I am 100% pro-life and proud of it.

So, I have asked multiple people, and nobody has given me a solid answer: what defines a person? Does thinking define a person? If I do a thoughtless act, like scribble a random drawing on a piece of paper (as I do often), or if I bleat like a sheep in class for no reason, does that make me any less human?

Now, here's my thing with "sovereignty". Let's say you make the same idea apply for something else:
You are a sergeant in the army. Let's say you have a new recruit join your unit. You don't like him. You think he's annoying. Does that give you the right to kill him?

(I'm not quite sure if that was the best analogy, but it's basically the same concept.)

Um, no....not in any way is that remotely the same concept. A squad, element, etc is not a human body.

[Luminesa]

Kids can express opinions. When I said it was like euthanasia, I meant that the incapacitated patient has decisions made for them because they can't think for themselves. But yes, if a kid is so severely injured that they are only technically alive, and euthanasia is legal, the parents can have the kid killed.

In a permanent vegetative state, you mean?

People are not vegetables. If I suddenly go comatose one day because of some horrific accident, that does not make me a carrot. I am still human, I'm just comatose.

A person does not stop being a person just because they cannot function as well as people who are not severely injured.

[Neutraligon]

In a permanent vegetative state, you mean?

People are not vegetables. If I suddenly go comatose one day because of some horrific accident, that does not make me a carrot. I am still human, I'm just comatose.

A person does not stop being a person just because they cannot function as well as people who are not severely injured.

A vegetative state does not mean we think they are a carrot... That person has not died so they are still a person.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

In a permanent vegetative state, you mean?

People are not vegetables. If I suddenly go comatose one day because of some horrific accident, that does not make me a carrot. I am still human, I'm just comatose.

A person does not stop being a person just because they cannot function as well as people who are not severely injured.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Do you know what a vegetative state is?!

Also, brain death means something very specific.

[MERIZoC]

This'll end well.

No, a fetus is not a person. Yes, a fetus is made of human cells. No, it does not think. Yes, a woman has bodily sovereignty.

There we go. Preemptive strike.

So, I have asked multiple people, and nobody has given me a solid answer: what defines a person? Does thinking define a person? If I do a thoughtless act, like scribble a random drawing on a piece of paper (as I do often), or if I bleat like a sheep in class for no reason, does that make me any less human?

Excellent question. What is personhood? Most people would tell you that it's a human being (some of those people would tell you that includes fetuses, some would say it doesn't). I, however, as someone in favor of extending the definition of personhood to many other animals, am in a different position. I would argue that the ability to feel emotion is what defines personhood, something a fetus does not show.

Now, here's my thing with "sovereignty". Let's say you make the same idea apply for something else:
You are a sergeant in the army. Let's say you have a new recruit join your unit. You don't like him. You think he's annoying. Does that give you the right to kill him?

(I'm not quite sure if that was the best analogy, but it's basically the same concept.)

No, that analogy isn't correct at all. It has absolutely nothing to do with bodily sovereignty.

[Luminesa]

Hello!

First of all, I LOVE TOTORO!!! I saw your icon a while back, and I thought that was so cute! XD

Second, to start the conversation, I am 100% pro-life and proud of it.

So, I have asked multiple people, and nobody has given me a solid answer: what defines a person? Does thinking define a person? If I do a thoughtless act, like scribble a random drawing on a piece of paper (as I do often), or if I bleat like a sheep in class for no reason, does that make me any less human?

Now, here's my thing with "sovereignty". Let's say you make the same idea apply for something else:
You are a sergeant in the army. Let's say you have a new recruit join your unit. You don't like him. You think he's annoying. Does that give you the right to kill him?

(I'm not quite sure if that was the best analogy, but it's basically the same concept.)

Um, no....not in any way is that remotely the same concept. A squad, element, etc is not a human body.

Meh. I felt like that would be a bad comparison.

Because of "sovereignty", let's get literal! (I'll see how this works...)

So a woman is a queen. She doesn't like some of her subjects, because she doesn't want to deal with them. Does she have a right to kill them?

(It might basically be the same thing as the first comparison, but think about it: just because someone is under their rule does not give them the right to kill the people under them.)

[Lost heros]

This'll end well.

No, a fetus is not a person. Yes, a fetus is made of human cells. No, it does not think. Yes, a woman has bodily sovereignty.

There we go. Preemptive strike.

Hello!

First of all, I LOVE TOTORO!!! I saw your icon a while back, and I thought that was so cute! XD

Second, to start the conversation, I am 100% pro-life and proud of it.

So, I have asked multiple people, and nobody has given me a solid answer: what defines a person? Does thinking define a person? If I do a thoughtless act, like scribble a random drawing on a piece of paper (as I do often), or if I bleat like a sheep in class for no reason, does that make me any less human?

Now, here's my thing with "sovereignty". Let's say you make the same idea apply for something else:
You are a sergeant in the army. Let's say you have a new recruit join your unit. You don't like him. You think he's annoying. Does that give you the right to kill him?

(I'm not quite sure if that was the best analogy, but it's basically the same concept.)

Personhood is the legal standard for someone's individuality.
Generally, when pro-choice advocates mention thinking or consciousness, we do so in general to a response about "the baby doesn't get the choice" or "the baby feels pain". This has nothing to do with personhood.

Your analogy is incredibly poor. And really I don't know why you even need one. When we talk about bodily sovereignty, we are talking about a person's right to control over her body. A grown person does not have the right to use your body without your informed consent, neither should a fetus.

[MERIZoC]

In a permanent vegetative state, you mean?

People are not vegetables. If I suddenly go comatose one day because of some horrific accident, that does not make me a carrot. I am still human, I'm just comatose.

A person does not stop being a person just because they cannot function as well as people who are not severely injured.

Not remotely what vegetative state means.

[Ifreann]

People are not vegetables. If I suddenly go comatose one day because of some horrific accident, that does not make me a carrot. I am still human, I'm just comatose.

A person does not stop being a person just because they cannot function as well as people who are not severely injured.

Not remotely what vegetative state means.

Though the idea of entering a vegetable state is interesting. Is it only carrots, or can we be other things? And what about tomatoes?

[Luminesa]

People are not vegetables. If I suddenly go comatose one day because of some horrific accident, that does not make me a carrot. I am still human, I'm just comatose.

A person does not stop being a person just because they cannot function as well as people who are not severely injured.

Not remotely what vegetative state means.

Well, what does it mean, then? Usually people say "vegetative state" when a person is comatose and unable to function independently.

[MERIZoC]

Not remotely what vegetative state means.

Well, what does it mean, then? Usually people say "vegetative state" when a person is comatose and unable to function independently.

Yes. And?