Detroit woman shot and killed for not giving phone number.

[Ostroeuropa]

Men, whenever you question why we don't tell you why we aren't interested, this is why. Whenever we "lead you on", this is why.

This is why women fear men. This is why we avoid you in the street, in the club, everywhere. Because you might decide to shoot us.

I bet this woman encountered hundreds of unsolicited requests for her phone number over the years. However, it only took one pissed off guy to decide that her refusal warranted the death penalty to end her life, and leave another man without a fiancé, and 3 children without a mother.

So NSG, what say you? Is this yet another example of the way our culture believes men are entitled to women, or is this simply a tragic, crazy once-off.

Arabs, whenever you question why we are afraid, this is why. Whenever we "Act discriminatory", this is why.

This is why we fear arabs. This is why we avoid you in the street, in the club, everywhere. Because you might decide to blow us up.

I bet this person encountered very few arabs and so any they do will stand out. (This makes way, way more sense than the original and fucking bizarre complaint that this was an anomaly) However, it only took one pissed off arab to decide everyone in the room needed to die.

No, this isn't racist BAWW.

[Laerod]

Asking you if it happens to any significant degree is most definitely not the same thing as approving of such behavior.

I already said before that "Okay, one does happen a little more than the other".
But if we are going to try and stamp out one, might as well work on the other too.

A little? You haven't found any examples of it happening at all. Mind you that doesn't mean I think it never happens, but it does illustrate just how unlikely it is for a man to get killed over rejecting the advances of a woman compared to a woman being killed for rejecting the advances of a man.

[Ostroeuropa]

The vast majority of the posts in this thread are "How dare you suggest it's ok to be afraid of men?!"
The attitude that the only thing that truly matters is how men are being "insulted" or "tarred with a broad brush" when what really matters is that a guy was so convinced he deserved attention from a woman that he shot her. And that's the second time this year alone. And that doesn't include the vast amount of nonlethal harassment and assault that women put up with.

The vast majority of posts in this thread are "How dare you suggest it's ok to be afraid of arabs?!"
The attitude that the only thing that truly matters is how arabs are being "Insulted" or "Tarred with a broad brush" when what really matters is that an arab was so convinced in his ideology he blew up a building.

[Laerod]

The vast majority of the posts in this thread are "How dare you suggest it's ok to be afraid of men?!"
The attitude that the only thing that truly matters is how men are being "insulted" or "tarred with a broad brush" when what really matters is that a guy was so convinced he deserved attention from a woman that he shot her. And that's the second time this year alone. And that doesn't include the vast amount of nonlethal harassment and assault that women put up with.

The vast majority of posts in this thread are "How dare you suggest it's ok to be afraid of arabs?!"
The attitude that the only thing that truly matters is how arabs are being "Insulted" or "Tarred with a broad brush" when what really matters is that an arab was so convinced in his ideology he blew up a building.

Context matters, Ostro.

[New Connorstantinople]

OP, why do you blame all men for this? The assailant could have been black. Why not just avoid all black people because one of them might shoot you?

[Laerod]

OP, why do you blame all men for this? The assailant could have been black. Why not just avoid all black people because one of them might shoot you?

Where does she blame all men for this is the better question.

[Scepez]

There isn't:

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/26719319/mass-shooting-kills-mother-of-three-wounds-five-others

Men, whenever you question why we don't tell you why we aren't interested, this is why. Whenever we "lead you on", this is why.

This is why women fear men. This is why we avoid you in the street, in the club, everywhere. Because you might decide to shoot us.

I bet this woman encountered hundreds of unsolicited requests for her phone number over the years. However, it only took one pissed off guy to decide that her refusal warranted the death penalty to end her life, and leave another man without a fiancé, and 3 children without a mother.

Check the bold print. Again.

The vast majority of the posts in this thread are "How dare you suggest it's ok to be afraid of men?!"
The attitude that the only thing that truly matters is how men are being "insulted" or "tarred with a broad brush" when what really matters is that a guy was so convinced he deserved attention from a woman that he shot her. And that's the second time this year alone. And that doesn't include the vast amount of nonlethal harassment and assault that women put up with.

But that's how our world is. You wanna change it? Good, go at it, but you'll be working on it forever. But sitting there crying "Men are evil! Men are horrible! Men should be erased from the planet so that Humanity can finally die off!" won't do a damn thing.

[Caraani]

OP, why do you blame all men for this? The assailant could have been black. Why not just avoid all black people because one of them might shoot you?

Where does she blame all men for this is the better question.

She literally says it, this is why women are scared of men, why they avoid them.
She (the op) is not ok at all if she says such things.

[Ostroeuropa]

I already said before that "Okay, one does happen a little more than the other".
But if we are going to try and stamp out one, might as well work on the other too.

A little? You haven't found any examples of it happening at all. Mind you that doesn't mean I think it never happens, but it does illustrate just how unlikely it is for a man to get killed over rejecting the advances of a woman compared to a woman being killed for rejecting the advances of a man.

Women rarely make advances, that's why.
That's also why men make so many of them.
This is a social situation created entirely by womens passivity, combined with real manism (The primary source of which is women.), and a lack of psychiatric helps for males, (Which ties into real manism.)

It's entirely within womens control to alter this situation.
They don't.
So why should we do anything other than roll our eyes at the complaints?

Yes, it sucks for this woman. Individually, there is little she could have done.
But women as a class? yeh.

[Scepez]

I already said before that "Okay, one does happen a little more than the other".
But if we are going to try and stamp out one, might as well work on the other too.

A little? You haven't found any examples of it happening at all. Mind you that doesn't mean I think it never happens, but it does illustrate just how unlikely it is for a man to get killed over rejecting the advances of a woman compared to a woman being killed for rejecting the advances of a man.

But even then this is still rare. 2 times in year with a population of MILLIONS of people is EXTREMELY rare. Yet here we are, judging a wider array. And before you go on to say "We didn't say all men!" You still said most, which is still a pretty damn large amount.

[Alexanda]

This is just terrible!
Murdered for not handing out a telephone number? Really, it makes one wonder about humanity!

[Katganistan]

Er, OP, surely you realise this is a very isolated incident? It's awful someone was killed over something so trivial as it appears, but this kind of thing is not something that happens every minute of every day. Please don't tarnish all of us (men) with the same brush; you're in danger of implying that from your post. And also, I doubt very much society (certainly in the western world) is "entitled" towards men in every single way; there are plenty of examples where it is "entitled" towards women.

http://nypost.com/2014/05/31/woman-kill ... ne-number/
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/14/ne ... rejection/
http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture ... ostpopular
www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s ... sxsFUaWlvQ
http://www.worldwideweirdnews.com/2014/03/w9168.html
http://www.salon.com/2014/08/14/man_to_ ... rejection/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/n ... television

It happens. There's a reason there is a fake phone number generator and a fake number that texts back feminist wisdom that one can use to give to strangers who won't accept no for an answer.

[Ostroeuropa]

Because women are passive in the dating scene, men may have to go through hundreds of rejections more than they ordinarily would.
This is crushing for peoples self-esteem and image.

Acting surprised when one of those desperate people flips their lid is utterly ridiculous, especially when society places such a huge emphasis on it and so do the women themselves.

If women hate getting hit on so much, do something about it.
Don't just sit there fucking complaining. That's STILL being passive.

[Caraani]

Er, OP, surely you realise this is a very isolated incident? It's awful someone was killed over something so trivial as it appears, but this kind of thing is not something that happens every minute of every day. Please don't tarnish all of us (men) with the same brush; you're in danger of implying that from your post. And also, I doubt very much society (certainly in the western world) is "entitled" towards men in every single way; there are plenty of examples where it is "entitled" towards women.

http://nypost.com/2014/05/31/woman-kill ... ne-number/
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/14/ne ... rejection/
http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture ... ostpopular
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... sxsFUaWlvQ
http://www.worldwideweirdnews.com/2014/03/w9168.html
http://www.salon.com/2014/08/14/man_to_ ... rejection/
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2007/n ... television

It happens. There's a reason there is a fake phone number generator and a fake number that texts back feminist wisdom that one can use to give to strangers who won't accept no for an answer.

So many feminazis in here, one wonders where this planet is going to.

[New Connorstantinople]

OP, why do you blame all men for this? The assailant could have been black. Why not just avoid all black people because one of them might shoot you?

Where does she blame all men for this is the better question.

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/26719319/mass-shooting-kills-mother-of-three-wounds-five-others

Men, whenever you question why we don't tell you why we aren't interested, this is why. Whenever we "lead you on", this is why.

This is why women fear men. This is why we avoid you in the street, in the club, everywhere. Because you might decide to shoot us.

I bet this woman encountered hundreds of unsolicited requests for her phone number over the years. However, it only took one pissed off guy to decide that her refusal warranted the death penalty to end her life, and leave another man without a fiancé, and 3 children without a mother.

So NSG, what say you? Is this yet another example of the way our culture believes men are entitled to women, or is this simply a tragic, crazy once-off.

I could replace the word men with Negroes, and this site would go bonkers. this is sexism. she doesn't see the world in terms of good and bad character, just by what they're packing in their pants. Its sick, and THIS is what needs to stop if we want to end sexism.

[Divitaen]

For those asking the OP not to "generalise", obviously the point was not to say that all men will go out and shoot women for not giving up their phone numbers, but looking around it is clear that the mentality that motivates such shootings is prevalent. The idea that the female body is always sexually available and is basically public property is the reason why guys don't back down when a girl says 'no', why 1 in 6 women in the US will be sexually assaulted and why most females have at least one story of street harassment, minor or major, to share. That's the main point.

[Ostroeuropa]

The vast majority of posts in this thread are "How dare you suggest it's ok to be afraid of arabs?!"
The attitude that the only thing that truly matters is how arabs are being "Insulted" or "Tarred with a broad brush" when what really matters is that an arab was so convinced in his ideology he blew up a building.

Context matters, Ostro.

Yeh?
How does the context of this alter the problem?

[Katganistan]

But that's how our world is. You wanna change it? Good, go at it, but you'll be working on it forever. But sitting there crying "Men are evil! Men are horrible! Men should be erased from the planet so that Humanity can finally die off!" won't do a damn thing.

So, women should accept harassment, threats and violence from men, because that's how the world works, and you're insulted and screaming hyperbole about how you think women view men because people have pointed out that that's how some people think that's how the world works.

Way to go. Maybe you can next be horrified that people are afraid of rabid dogs, ebola, and war. They're all how the world works too.

[Alexanda]

Was this man insane, or just drunk?

[Laerod]

There isn't:

Check the bold print. Again.

I've read it. It pretty much says the opposite from what you insinuated here:

Yes, there was totally no intentional intent to show that men are evil pricks *nod*

So English comprehension lesson:

This is why women fear men. This is why we avoid you in the street, in the club, everywhere. Because you might decide to shoot us.

The key to understand why you're so blantantly wrong in interpreting the above sentence is the "might". The might explicitely indicates that #NotAllMen will kill a woman for being rejected. The argument is that there is no meaningful way to tell the difference between the 99 nice strangers and the 1 murderer. Assuming for the moment that those are accurate statistics.

So, no. #NotAllMen are being accused of being evil pricks. It's an incredibly popular delusion, but a delusion that Saint Jade said anything of the sort in the OP.

The vast majority of the posts in this thread are "How dare you suggest it's ok to be afraid of men?!"
The attitude that the only thing that truly matters is how men are being "insulted" or "tarred with a broad brush" when what really matters is that a guy was so convinced he deserved attention from a woman that he shot her. And that's the second time this year alone. And that doesn't include the vast amount of nonlethal harassment and assault that women put up with.

But that's how our world is. You wanna change it? Good, go at it, but you'll be working on it forever. But sitting there crying "Men are evil! Men are horrible! Men should be erased from the planet so that Humanity can finally die off!" won't do a damn thing.

Which is why I'm here attempting to get you to realize that you're utterly misinterpreting the OP. I'm hoping that you'll change your selfish attitude.

[Paixao]

What the hell, OP.

Making this an "men feel entitled" thing out of one idiot's decision to go on a killing spree is not acceptable.

Because of course, the trigger for his killing spree being the rejection by a woman couldn't possibly be explained by his belief that he was entitled to women. And of course, Elliott Rodger was an isolated incident, completely cut off from any societal messages. It's completely coincidental that these two men went on a killing spree specifically because they were rejected by women.

"Specifically because they were rejected by women." Correlation does not imply causation, you should know better. The short term trigger may have been that, but the underlying factors probably have something to do with the fact that they don't have an issue with killing strangers. Something which most people (even men!), believe it or not, do.

And of course, the fact that we have had two men kill women for rejecting them shouldn't make women wary at all. We shouldn't at all take precautions to protect ourselves.

Of course you should. Strange that when a man suggests it, though, you cry out "ah ha! You're trying to restrict my freedom to do X by suggesting I do Y to protect myself!" (which, don't deny it, you've already done on this thread). Newsflash: people are trying to give you advice - however misguided at times - at how to protect yourself, they're not actively trying to restrict your freedoms.

By all means, tell them their advice is bullshit - especially when the suggestions is "just don't go" - but don't frame it as men actively trying to oppress you when, more often than not, it's just a misguided attempt to provide a solution.

It'd be nice if I said anything that remotely supports this point. But I didn't.

Here we go "I mean, the fact that earlier this year we had a man whose trigger was eerily similar go on a killing spree is in no way related. Nuh uh. They're just crazy people. Yep. Case closed."
-> implication: "Because they are men they will be/are violent."

Yeah. I agree completely. Now, if you could helpfully point out the visible attributes of the few psychopaths who will be triggered by my rejection into assault, rape or murder, I'll stop assessing the potential threat men pose based on the way they treat me. Until then, I'm going to assume that, until proven otherwise, a man is a threat to my safety.

Sure thing Jade, if you can tell me which women will beat me to death with a crowbar after several years of happy marriage...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/nyreg ... .html?_r=0

Or which woman will, given the opportunity, tie me up in a back room and rape me for the 3 days...

http://www.inquisitr.com/22016/russian- ... -days-p2s/

Or which mother will kill me minutes after I exit her womb!

http://www.wkrn.com/story/15465748/moth ... nts-deaths

Thanks. I'll be sure to distribute your helpful suggestions to other potential victims of violent crime perpetrated by women.

And you don't think that the idea of the "friend zone" contributes in any way to these kinds of extreme expressions of entitlement? You don't think that catcalling a woman on the street is a contributing factor in any way? You don't think that the notion that I should EXPECT to be sexually assaulted for daring to be in a pub, as one poster asserted, in any way contributes to the entitlement mentality of some men, and creates in the mind of sick individuals a belief that they have a right to harm us?

Of course I do, and we should, as a society, be working towards solving these problems, educating our sons to treat women like equals, not pieces of meat, encouraging our daughters to be scientists and engineers. However, are they the main factor in this? No! Just about every single man on earth lives in a place where the things you mention still happen. A tiny, tiny, tiny minority of them kill people. Do I think the things you've mentioned are problems that need to be solved to reach a truly egalitarian society? Yes. So much. I'm with you all the way in the fight to get rid of all of the things you've mentioned. However, do I think that solving them will prevent people like those your OP was about killing people? Not really, no. My point is that if they're wired in a way that they can kill someone, they'll end up killing someone when placed in the right circumstances.

Perhaps a society where they weren't under the same "to be macho you have to be with a woman" ideas might avoid them from getting stressed enough to snap and go kill someone (and no, this isn't a "poor old men", this is a "Trying to understand why you'd kill someone"), but more than likely there'd be something else there to replace the relevant stress, and someone would end up dead anyway, perhaps, even, a man.

Oh I see. I haven't been arguing that our society's misguided notions of masculinity and male entitlement have contributed to this. I've been arguing that men are inherently evil, and that these kinds of mentalities happen in a vacuum which has nothing to do with society. I haven't been suggesting that we change the attitudes around women's right to be in public without sexual harassment or sexual assault, which is a problem that society needs to address. I've been arguing that men are immutably, irredeemably evil, and we should just eliminate them.

Oh...wait.

[

Removing the drooling sarcasm I would say we're in agreement, then. Society needs to change, so lets start by not acting like half of it is composed of horny gorillas on a killing spree in disguise.

[Ostroeuropa]

But that's how our world is. You wanna change it? Good, go at it, but you'll be working on it forever. But sitting there crying "Men are evil! Men are horrible! Men should be erased from the planet so that Humanity can finally die off!" won't do a damn thing.

So, women should accept harassment, threats and violence from men, because that's how the world works, and you're insulted that people have pointed out that that's how some people think that's how the world works.

Way to go. Maybe you can next be horrified that people are afraid of rabid dogs, ebola, and war. They're all how the world works too.

I'd say women should get off their ass and get more involved in the dating scene, start hitting on men they find attractive more, etc. That will drive down the amount of hitting on people men have to do. It'll drive down the pressure and stress on men who get rejected and leave them less likely to flip their lid, since they'll need to hit on people and get rejected less. (A man can't be passive. He'll never get a date. He has to go out and ask lots of women, otherwise other men will get them first.)
By being passive, women are forcing men into a high stress situation, then whining and complaining when one of them snaps under the pressure.
Ok.
YOU do the fucking job then, if you're so much better at it girls.
It'd lead to less shootings overall probably. But don't kid yourselves, if men just sat there looking pretty and thought "This is my entire contribution." then women had to come up to us and we rejected one of them hundreds of times, and we did this to a large enough population, one of them WOULD snap.
Equalizing the pressure is the only solution. It also stops women from complaining so much about getting hit on, because then they might actually understand it.

So this situation?
It's ENTIRELY in womens control to fix. But they instead blame the men.
Because they are passive.
It's why I can't take this complaint seriously anymore.
They cause this culture.

[Alexanda]

Was this man insane, or just drunk?

He needs a bullet in the head.
As for the person who opened this thread, you are somewhat generalizing. This was one man, and one rarely hears of such incidents. The vast, vast majority of men would accept the woman's decision, express their thanks for the honesty, and move on.

[Scepez]

But that's how our world is. You wanna change it? Good, go at it, but you'll be working on it forever. But sitting there crying "Men are evil! Men are horrible! Men should be erased from the planet so that Humanity can finally die off!" won't do a damn thing.

So, women should accept harassment, threats and violence from men, because that's how the world works, and you're insulted that people have pointed out that that's how some people think that's how the world works.

Way to go. Maybe you can next be horrified that people are afraid of rabid dogs, ebola, and war. They're all how the world works too.

I didn't say people should accept it. I could say "Fuck you Ebola! You evil asshole!" Would that do anything? Chances are, no. Yes, harassment is bad. We should do something about it then. Maybe beef up security in the cities? This a difficult problem as we all can't be everywhere at the same time.
People can be afraid of things. I'm afraid of Spiders for example. But I don't hate them. They do a lot of good like kill insects and things like that. Sure, Ebola does NO good, but unlike ebola, Man's purpose is NOT to slowly kill all of the females. Same goes for rabid dogs. A man is not a rabid dog, we don't spit foam and gnaw on the nearest living thing.

[Laerod]

Context matters, Ostro.

Yeh?
How does the context of this alter the problem?

Me not giving money to beggars that look like they're from Romania may be racist, but the context is that there is a beggar mafia that primarily recruits Romanians where I live. I have no way of telling if the money will actually benefit the person or if it will go to whoever runs that mob. This would be utterly different in terms of justification from me treating anyone that looks like they might be from Romania with contempt. (To be fair to me, I don't give money to any beggars that aren't selling newspapers or the like, though I will on occasion give food because if that ends up in some mob boss' pocket, it's to their detriment.)

This discussion is similar. The "you can't tell" argument is being presented very much exclusively in the context of men making advances, so it does not compare to general xenophobia or racism.