RESOLVED: Atheist Airman Allowed To Modify Oath

[Condunum]

Haha! No.

I remember in basic training, somebody was smart enough to shave his head planning to save money but he was forced to get his head shaved by the barber and pay $6 just like the rest of us. The drill sergeant did it to make a point that he was superior to us. That taught me that thinking is a waste of time in the army. There are plenty more examples of leaders giving out inefficient and stupid orders but lower ranking soldiers are powerless so I just followed my orders and counted my days.

This airman accepts the military way of life though. He should be used to following the idiotic orders of his superiors. He can think of the oath as another order he must follow even though he doesn't like it.

"accepting" the military way of life doesn't mean you have to ignore the things you want to change. People have values. Surprisingly, those values are not always the same as yours, and they value them just as much (or more, I don't know) as you do.

[Norstal]

If you believe the words of the oath you are reciting have no meaning... why bother with the oath at all.

You say it so you can keep your job. I said things I didn't believe all the time in the military to fit in and keep the superiors happy. Including motivational chants like 'guts, guts, guts, makes the green grass green.' Just say the words, I am sure he has said things he doesn't mean before such as 'no honey, that dress doesn't make you look fat at all' or 'I can run to Texas just like this....all by myself.' Do you really think he meant those things also??

This is the kind of mindset that creates a military junta. Most of us don't want a military dictatorship.

[Condunum]

If you believe the words of the oath you are reciting have no meaning... why bother with the oath at all.

You say it so you can keep your job. I said things I didn't believe all the time in the military to fit in and keep the superiors happy. Including motivational chants like 'guts, guts, guts, makes the green grass green.' Just say the words, I am sure he has said things he doesn't mean before such as 'no honey, that dress doesn't make you look fat at all' or 'I can run to Texas just like this....all by myself.' Do you really think he meant those things also??

Neither of those two things are an oath.

I really doubt you have any experience with the military based on the bullshit you say all the time.

[Freiheit Reich]

You say it so you can keep your job. I said things I didn't believe all the time in the military to fit in and keep the superiors happy. Including motivational chants like 'guts, guts, guts, makes the green grass green.' Just say the words, I am sure he has said things he doesn't mean before such as 'no honey, that dress doesn't make you look fat at all' or 'I can run to Texas just like this....all by myself.' Do you really think he meant those things also??

Neither of those two things are an oath.

I really doubt you have any experience with the military based on the bullshit you say all the time.

Three years in the army. I will admit, I was below average as a soldier but I am not ashamed of this. Once you are in, the military has you and it is not easy to get out. I just did the bare minimum to stay out of trouble and had no motivation to learn new things (because being a more competent soldier would help an organization I was forced to stay in and disliked). However, I followed orders to avoid getting in trouble.

I was not the worst soldier though. I didn't break the rules like others did (such as failing drug tests).

I said the oath because it was necessary to enter the military (a decision I thought was good at the time). I would have probably said 'so help me Spiderman' if that was necessary to enter. Plenty of people do things they don't believe in to get ahead in life. Saying a few words is less harmful than fighting unjust wars and killing people in countries that didn't attack your country (Vietnam and Iraq).

[Tekania]

Neither of those two things are an oath.

I really doubt you have any experience with the military based on the bullshit you say all the time.

Three years in the army. I will admit, I was below average as a soldier but I am not ashamed of this. Once you are in, the military has you and it is not easy to get out. I just did the bare minimum to stay out of trouble and had no motivation to learn new things (because being a more competent soldier would help an organization I was forced to stay in and disliked). However, I followed orders to avoid getting in trouble.

I was not the worst soldier though. I didn't break the rules like others did (such as failing drug tests).

I said the oath because it was necessary to enter the military (a decision I thought was good at the time). I would have probably said 'so help me Spiderman' if that was necessary to enter. Plenty of people do things they don't believe in to get ahead in life. Saying a few words is less harmful than fighting unjust wars and killing people in countries that didn't attack your country (Vietnam and Iraq).

And I was a 6 year in E-6 (less than that really, considering I put on E-6 even before my 5 year point) who would voice questions on orders, didn't take things lying down and constantly sought to excel. So this may show what values our military likes.

This should be no shock either. Fitreps/evals make up a component in overall scores when it comes to advancement selection. And who is going to have a better fitrep/eval? The one with drive and initiative who seeks to excel, has a voice and is noticed? Or the guy who just does what he's told and tries to never rock the boat or stand for anything?

[Freiheit Reich]

Three years in the army. I will admit, I was below average as a soldier but I am not ashamed of this. Once you are in, the military has you and it is not easy to get out. I just did the bare minimum to stay out of trouble and had no motivation to learn new things (because being a more competent soldier would help an organization I was forced to stay in and disliked). However, I followed orders to avoid getting in trouble.

I was not the worst soldier though. I didn't break the rules like others did (such as failing drug tests).

I said the oath because it was necessary to enter the military (a decision I thought was good at the time). I would have probably said 'so help me Spiderman' if that was necessary to enter. Plenty of people do things they don't believe in to get ahead in life. Saying a few words is less harmful than fighting unjust wars and killing people in countries that didn't attack your country (Vietnam and Iraq).

And I was a 6 year in E-6 (less than that really, considering I put on E-6 even before my 5 year point) who would voice questions on orders, didn't take things lying down and constantly sought to excel. So this may show what values our military likes.

This should be no shock either. Fitreps/evals make up a component in overall scores when it comes to advancement selection. And who is going to have a better fitrep/eval? The one with drive and initiative who seeks to excel, has a voice and is noticed? Or the guy who just does what he's told and tries to never rock the boat or stand for anything?

Probably the one that drives to excel while saying the right things to the right people without making the brown nosing too obvious. Favoritism exists everywhere. You have to say the right things to ensure your superiors remain happy with you.

You can follow orders and still get noticed by doing your job well, getting high scores on your PT test, having a pressed uniform and shiny boots, and not failing your drug test or getting a DUI. This airmen probably offended some superiors who are religious.

[Tekania]

This airmen probably offended some superiors who are religious.

Maybe, maybe not.... immaterial. At this point in time the Airman won without even going to court.

Personally I have a felling it is just backlash from what happened at the Airforce Academy back in 2013. And has just now been finally fixed.

The USAFA has long had an issue with a balance of religious plurality. So it is unsurprising that leadership would have this issue as well.

DoD set tehm in order. This USAF Sergent can now re-enlist without stating the God portion of the oath, just like when he or she initially took the oath.

[Dyakovo]

Stop making a stand and say God's name. He is making a big stink over the fact he just has to endure 2 seconds of mental pain. I would say the words because they are meaningless to me.

In the military, enlisted men are paid to do, not think. Officers are paid to think. That is a reason I had low respect for my job in the military and got out. He wants to reenlist so he should understand by now his role is to obey orders, even when they are stupid. Say the words and stop being a baby!

In the military you're taught not to follow illegal orders (Which being told he has to recite the oath with the "God" part is), so no, you aren't taught to not think.
In addition, why would you want soldiers who would swear a false oath?

[Dyakovo]

If you believe the words of the oath you are reciting have no meaning... why bother with the oath at all.

You say it so you can keep your job. I said things I didn't believe all the time in the military to fit in and keep the superiors happy. Including motivational chants like 'guts, guts, guts, makes the green grass green.' Just say the words, I am sure he has said things he doesn't mean before such as 'no honey, that dress doesn't make you look fat at all' or 'I can run to Texas just like this....all by myself.' Do you really think he meant those things also??

You were clearly never in the military.

[Norstal]

You say it so you can keep your job. I said things I didn't believe all the time in the military to fit in and keep the superiors happy. Including motivational chants like 'guts, guts, guts, makes the green grass green.' Just say the words, I am sure he has said things he doesn't mean before such as 'no honey, that dress doesn't make you look fat at all' or 'I can run to Texas just like this....all by myself.' Do you really think he meant those things also??

You were clearly never in the military.

Careful now, he's part of the 101st Fighting Keyboarders.

[Tsarist Chernigov]

Serves Him Right,sorry.

[Tekania]

Serves Him Right,sorry.

Yes, it does serve him right that he gets to now re-enlist without having to swear to God in his oath.

[Bythyrona]

You were clearly never in the military.

Careful now, he's part of the 101st Fighting Keyboarders.

HOOAH INTEL

#poglife

[Korouse]

I hope arguing over a few sentences was worth it guys!

[Tekania]

I hope arguing over a few sentences was worth it guys!

Seems to be worth it, considering USAF policy is now in line with the rest of the DoD branches and the Airman can now re-enlist without swearing to God.

[Korouse]

I hope arguing over a few sentences was worth it guys!

Seems to be worth it, considering USAF policy is now in line with the rest of the DoD branches and the Airman can now re-enlist without swearing to God.

Mhm.

Because the Air Force saw this and were so impressed they changed it, not because of political correctness.

just to reiterate this, it's a couple of sentences.

[Vamtrl]

Victory for secularism.

[Stormwind-City]

Seems to be worth it, considering USAF policy is now in line with the rest of the DoD branches and the Airman can now re-enlist without swearing to God.

Mhm.

Because the Air Force saw this and were so impressed they changed it, not because of political correctness.

just to reiterate this, it's a couple of sentences.

You mean the AF contacted the DoD legal arm who told them it violated the Constitution for those words to be non-optional and to revert it to being optional.

[Sun Wukong]

I hope arguing over a few sentences was worth it guys!

He says, making an argument over the internet regarding a few sentences.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Seems to be worth it, considering USAF policy is now in line with the rest of the DoD branches and the Airman can now re-enlist without swearing to God.

Mhm.

Because the Air Force saw this and were so impressed they changed it, not because of political correctness.

just to reiterate this, it's a couple of sentences.

Yes. It's a couple of sentences in an oath that the person cannot ethically swear to. That's a problem if you want military personnel with any sense of right and wrong, or ones who take their oaths seriously. Of course, if you're good with amoral types who are willing to swear by things that that don't believe in, that's fine, but please understand that it's no way to build a military.

(Sorry about taking that last sentence out of the smaller font size, but it seemed to be a point that required addressing for the hundredth time)

[Stormwind-City]

I hope arguing over a few sentences was worth it guys!

He says, making an argument over the internet regarding a few sentences.

That burnnn!

[The Huskar Social Union]

I hope arguing over a few sentences was worth it guys!

He says, making an argument over the internet regarding a few sentences.

Here is a list of Burn Centers in the US for the afflicted

[Agritum]

Hooray, a victory for freedom of religion (and from religion).

[Laerod]

Seems to be worth it, considering USAF policy is now in line with the rest of the DoD branches and the Airman can now re-enlist without swearing to God.

Mhm.

Because the Air Force saw this and were so impressed they changed it, not because of political correctness.

just to reiterate this, it's a couple of sentences.

Ha. I'm sure that line would go over well if the Air Force made Christians finish their oaths with "Hail Satan!"

[Korouse]

Mhm.

Because the Air Force saw this and were so impressed they changed it, not because of political correctness.

just to reiterate this, it's a couple of sentences.

Ha. I'm sure that line would go over well if the Air Force made Christians finish their oaths with "Hail Satan!"

Well if "Hail Satan" was apart of the U.S. Military Oath, and did not offend Christians until now, my viewpoint would be the same