Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[Sungai Pusat]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/americas-st ... 1422573879

"He said the U.S. is not “adapting to changed circumstances” in the Mideast and must “come out now from our reactive crouch.”"

Well, fuck.

[Herargon]

They should have been shot down. Or at least these bombers should be expelled, that might be better IMHO.

They were in international airspace, so I don't see why the RAF would shoot them down.

25 miles from the UK is rather unclear. Are they talking about ''25 miles from the land''? That is what most people would think.
Or are they talking about 25 miles from the territorial airspace? It hasn't been clarified.

If they didn't violate the territorial airspace, it is not a big concern, but still a concern nonetheless.

If they did so, however, then we did have all right to either expel them and warn them, or shoot them down if they didn't listen.

We're technically already in a cold war with Russia. And the Soviet Union also once shot an airplane of a NATO member down:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident

Since Russia is the successor state to the USSR, they still have the fault over themselves for that.
Not that that incident is a big problem, but still, it gives us a casus belli to shoot other planes down from them.

If the Russians only would listen and stop flying to us with bombers, we would be only too happy to see that happen.
Then we would stop doing that too.

[West Aurelia]

25 miles from the UK is rather unclear. Are they talking about ''25 miles from the land''? That is what most people would think.
Or are they talking about 25 miles from the territorial airspace? It hasn't been clarified.

If they didn't violate the territorial airspace, it is not a big concern, but still a concern nonetheless.

If they did so, however, then we did have all right to either expel them and warn them, or shoot them down if they didn't listen.

"It said the two Russian planes did not enter UK airspace"

We're technically already in a cold war with Russia. And the Soviet Union also once shot an airplane of a NATO member down:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident

Since Russia is the successor state to the USSR, they still have the fault over themselves for that.

That's like saying the current German government is at fault for Nazi war crimes.

Not that that incident is a big problem, but still, it gives us a casus belli to shoot other planes down from them.

No it doesn't. That happened 55 years ago. If Russian planes do violate the UK's airspace, then that would be a different story.

[Herargon]

25 miles from the UK is rather unclear. Are they talking about ''25 miles from the land''? That is what most people would think.
Or are they talking about 25 miles from the territorial airspace? It hasn't been clarified.

If they didn't violate the territorial airspace, it is not a big concern, but still a concern nonetheless.

If they did so, however, then we did have all right to either expel them and warn them, or shoot them down if they didn't listen.

"It said the two Russian planes did not enter UK airspace"

We're technically already in a cold war with Russia. And the Soviet Union also once shot an airplane of a NATO member down:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident

Since Russia is the successor state to the USSR, they still have the fault over themselves for that.

That's like saying the current German government is at fault for Nazi war crimes.

Not that that incident is a big problem, but still, it gives us a casus belli to shoot other planes down from them.

No it doesn't. That happened 55 years ago. If Russian planes do violate the UK's airspace, then that would be a different story.

1) There are different types of airspace.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspace

2) From an official point of view, that what you stated was right...

However, Germany - the current Germany - is the 'enlargened BRD', which is the successor to the Occupation Zone states. The occupation zones are unofficially not successor states to Nazi Germany however.
Thus it could be argued that Germany is the merged successor state of the occupation zones.
So we're both right on that point. Also, a difference is that the Russian Federation was the direct successor state of the USSR, while Germany wasn't of Nazi German in that point of view.

3) Indeed.

[Roski]

"It said the two Russian planes did not enter UK airspace"



That's like saying the current German government is at fault for Nazi war crimes.



No it doesn't. That happened 55 years ago. If Russian planes do violate the UK's airspace, then that would be a different story.

1) There are different types of airspace.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspace

2) From an official point of view, that what you stated was right...

However, Germany - the current Germany - is the 'enlargened BRD', which is the successor to the Occupation Zone states. The occupation zones are unofficially not successor states to Nazi Germany however.
Thus it could be argued that Germany is the merged successor state of the occupation zones.
So we're both right on that point. Also, a difference is that the Russian Federation was the direct successor state of the USSR, while Germany wasn't of Nazi German in that point of view.

3) Indeed.

International law recognizes 13nmi from their shores to be the edge of the physical territory. A Russian Plane entering this is an act of war. However, entering an AIDZ (which Britian is showing to have), ISN'T an act of war. If that were the case, Russia and the United States have been at war for a very long time.

[Herargon]

1) There are different types of airspace.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspace

2) From an official point of view, that what you stated was right...

However, Germany - the current Germany - is the 'enlargened BRD', which is the successor to the Occupation Zone states. The occupation zones are unofficially not successor states to Nazi Germany however.
Thus it could be argued that Germany is the merged successor state of the occupation zones.
So we're both right on that point. Also, a difference is that the Russian Federation was the direct successor state of the USSR, while Germany wasn't of Nazi German in that point of view.

3) Indeed.

International law recognizes 13nmi from their shores to be the edge of the physical territory. A Russian Plane entering this is an act of war. However, entering an AIDZ (which Britian is showing to have), ISN'T an act of war. If that were the case, Russia and the United States have been at war for a very long time.

Interesting... That idea alone would've been catastrophically.
Imagine those two superpowers at war. shivers

[Jinwoy]

An act of war doesn't necessarily end in war... I know there are some precedents somewhere...

[United Marxist Nations]

An act of war doesn't necessarily end in war... I know there are some precedents somewhere...

It was not uncommon for US and USSR warplanes to fly over each other unmolested. Spy planes were different though.

[Malgrave]

An interesting opinion article on the presence of Russian troops/equipment in Ukraine.

In Belarus attempts to re-start peace talks have stopped before they started.

[Herargon]

An act of war doesn't necessarily end in war... I know there are some precedents somewhere...

It was not uncommon for US and USSR warplanes to fly over each other unmolested. Spy planes were different though.

Wait, when did that happen then?
I am talking about your first statement. Not that I don't believe you, but where are those sources?

[Costa Fierro]

Interesting PDF of the assessment of the Russian military.

[United Marxist Nations]

It was not uncommon for US and USSR warplanes to fly over each other unmolested. Spy planes were different though.

Wait, when did that happen then?
I am talking about your first statement. Not that I don't believe you, but where are those sources?

Psychological operations by the United States began mid-February 1981 and continued intermittently until 1983.[citation needed] These included a series of clandestine naval operations that stealthily accessed waters near the Greenland-Iceland-United Kingdom (GIUK) gap, and the Barents, Norwegian, Black, and Baltic seas, demonstrating how close NATO ships could get to critical Soviet military bases. American bombers also flew directly towards Soviet airspace, peeling off at the last moment, occasionally several times per week. These near penetrations were designed to test Soviet radar vulnerability as well as demonstrate US capabilities in a nuclear war.[19]

"It really got to them," told Dr. William Schneider, [former] undersecretary of state for military assistance and technology, who saw classified "after-action reports" that indicated U.S. flight activity. "They didn't know what it all meant. A squadron would fly straight at Soviet airspace, and other radars would light up and units would go on alert. Then at the last minute the squadron would peel off and return home."[19]

In April, the United States Navy conducted FleetEx '83, the largest fleet exercise held to date in the North Pacific.[20][21] The conglomeration of approximately forty ships with 23,000 crewmembers and 300 aircraft, was arguably the most powerful naval armada ever assembled. U.S. aircraft and ships attempted to provoke the Soviets into reacting, allowing the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence to study Soviet radar characteristics, aircraft capabilities, and tactical maneuvers. On April 4 at least six U.S. Navy aircraft flew over one of the Kurile Islands, Zeleny Island. In retaliation the Soviets ordered an overflight of U.S. Aleutian Islands. The Soviet Union also issued a formal diplomatic note of protest, which accused the United States of repeated penetrations of Soviet airspace.[22]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Archer_83


It actually led to the shootdown of a commercial jet that same year, unfortunately.

Several years later, in 1989, a Soviet MiG-29 flew over Alaska, here are pics:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _view.JPEG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _1989.JPEG

And here is the pic of F-15's intercepting, which prompted them leaving: http://images.defensetech.org/wp-conten ... tecept.jpg

[West Aurelia]

At least six killed in shelling of cultural center and bus in Donetsk.

[Herargon]

Wait, when did that happen then?
I am talking about your first statement. Not that I don't believe you, but where are those sources?

Psychological operations by the United States began mid-February 1981 and continued intermittently until 1983.[citation needed] These included a series of clandestine naval operations that stealthily accessed waters near the Greenland-Iceland-United Kingdom (GIUK) gap, and the Barents, Norwegian, Black, and Baltic seas, demonstrating how close NATO ships could get to critical Soviet military bases. American bombers also flew directly towards Soviet airspace, peeling off at the last moment, occasionally several times per week. These near penetrations were designed to test Soviet radar vulnerability as well as demonstrate US capabilities in a nuclear war.[19]

"It really got to them," told Dr. William Schneider, [former] undersecretary of state for military assistance and technology, who saw classified "after-action reports" that indicated U.S. flight activity. "They didn't know what it all meant. A squadron would fly straight at Soviet airspace, and other radars would light up and units would go on alert. Then at the last minute the squadron would peel off and return home."[19]

In April, the United States Navy conducted FleetEx '83, the largest fleet exercise held to date in the North Pacific.[20][21] The conglomeration of approximately forty ships with 23,000 crewmembers and 300 aircraft, was arguably the most powerful naval armada ever assembled. U.S. aircraft and ships attempted to provoke the Soviets into reacting, allowing the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence to study Soviet radar characteristics, aircraft capabilities, and tactical maneuvers. On April 4 at least six U.S. Navy aircraft flew over one of the Kurile Islands, Zeleny Island. In retaliation the Soviets ordered an overflight of U.S. Aleutian Islands. The Soviet Union also issued a formal diplomatic note of protest, which accused the United States of repeated penetrations of Soviet airspace.[22]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Archer_83


It actually led to the shootdown of a commercial jet that same year, unfortunately.

Several years later, in 1989, a Soviet MiG-29 flew over Alaska, here are pics:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _view.JPEG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... _1989.JPEG

And here is the pic of F-15's intercepting, which prompted them leaving: http://images.defensetech.org/wp-conten ... tecept.jpg

Ahh, thanks, chairman Lenin.

[Lytenburgh]

EU may add rebels to terrorist list as part of new sanctions.

Hey, WA - how is the process of adding "Rebels" to the list of "terrorists" is going?

[Geilinor]

EU may add rebels to terrorist list as part of new sanctions.

Hey, WA - how is the process of adding "Rebels" to the list of "terrorists" is going?

You know the saying about terrorists and freedom fighters.

[West Aurelia]

EU may add rebels to terrorist list as part of new sanctions.

Hey, WA - how is the process of adding "Rebels" to the list of "terrorists" is going?

Looks like it didn't go through from what I can tell.

[Roski]

Hey, WA - how is the process of adding "Rebels" to the list of "terrorists" is going?

Looks like it didn't go through from what I can tell.

There's not been a vote. Its still in the drafting stage I guess

[West Aurelia]

Looks like it didn't go through from what I can tell.

There's not been a vote. Its still in the drafting stage I guess

The EU already extended sanctions against Russia - the terrorist designation was being mulled as part of those sanctions. You could be right, but for now I think they decided against it.

[Jinwoy]

At least six killed in shelling of cultural center and bus in Donetsk.

The seperatists did it! They intentionally set out to kill all civilians, but not the Ukr. Army, they are perfect flawless heroes who will save Donetsk from the Russians!

[Roski]

At least six killed in shelling of cultural center and bus in Donetsk.

The seperatists did it! They intentionally set out to kill all civilians, but not the Ukr. Army, they are perfect flawless heroes who will save Donetsk from the Russians!

Are the seperatists the ones who accidentally hit that bus in Maripoul?

[Washington Resistance Army]

At least six killed in shelling of cultural center and bus in Donetsk.

The seperatists did it! They intentionally set out to kill all civilians, but not the Ukr. Army, they are perfect flawless heroes who will save Donetsk from the Russians!

Doing that only works when the other side has actually claimed the thing you're trying to parody

[Lytenburgh]

Kiev recognizes the lack of regular units of the Russian armed forces in the Donbas

Chief of Staff of the Armed Forces of the Ukraine Viktor Muzhenko acknowledged that the fighting in the east of Ukraine does not involve the regular units of the Russian army. According to the Ukrainian "Channel 5", he made this statement during a briefing in Kiev.

At the same time Muzhenko stated that the General Staff has information about participation in the battles "of individual citizens of the Russian Federation and the Russian Army." "Currently, the Ukrainian army is not fighting with the regular units of the Russian army," - he said.

Chief of Staff also said that the Ukrainian army has "enough resources to deal a final, even defeating, blow to the illegal armed groups" ("Illegal armed groups" is Kiev's desgnation of breakaway Donetsk and Lugansk People's Republic - ."Lenta.ru").

January 21, the President of the Ukraine Poroshenko, speaking at the World Economic Forum in Davos, said that in the east of the Ukraine there are currently more than nine thousand Russian soldiers supporting militias pf DPR and LPR.

Kiev has repeatedly accused Moscow of supporting militias in Donbass. According to the Ukrainian authorities, Russia not only provides them with weapons, but is sending its troops and military equipment. Ukraine also partially imposes on Russia the responsibility for the outbreak of the conflict in the eastern Ukraine.

Moscow rejects all accusations. They, according to the the Russian General Staff, are "primitive fakes": "To hide a huge combined-arms grouping on a relatively small area where are working independent journalists and representatives of the OSCE, is impossible even hypothetically."

Remind me later to explain to you the complex concept, dominating currently the Ukrainian Media and political fields, the Yin and Yang of the current Ukrainian solipsism - the concepts of "перемога" and invevitably following it "зрада".

[Lytenburgh]

Another reminder, that the official number of the Ukrainian losses provided by the Ukrainian government (and repeated thoughtlessly by the West) are totally true:

Indee, to quote "professional Ukrainian journalist" Dmitro Tymchuk - "There are no losses". Especially "there are no losses"on Dniepropetrovk graveyard.

Meanwhile, according to some information (yet not confirmed), Debaltsevo's "cauldron" is set on "boil". There are apprx. 10 000 Ukrainian troopers, surrounded by Novorossiyan troops. This is even more then were at Ilovaysk. According to the Ukrainian Minister of Defense Poltorack, Debaltsevo itself is already "partially controlled" by DPR forces. Also, according to his claim, during the last 24 hours forces of the ATO have lost 15 KIA and 30 WIA

[Estruia]

According to VICE, Civilian deaths, caused by DNR artillery, are on the rise. How much longer will the Pro-Russian posters find excuses for these travesties?