Ukraine Megathread: Crimea River Build a Bridge, Get Over It

[Jinwoy]

This changes everything!
No, I'm being sincere this time!

Uh, it's one document published by an anti-Putin newspaper in Russia (founded and part-owned by Mikhail Gorbachev, no less), which claims to have "obtained" the document somehow, without giving any details or any evidence that the document is genuine.

Unless some shred of evidence is provided, I'm going to assume this is a forgery.

Besides, if Russia was really planning to annex Novorossiya, they would have done it by now. Putin's goal is obviously to create a Transnistria-like frozen conflict in Eastern Ukraine, not to annex bits of it.

Serious question: Is there still conflict in Transnistria?

[Herargon]

Constantinopolis, have you seen my previous post?

[Constantinopolis]

Serious question: Is there still conflict in Transnistria?

There isn't any more fighting if that's what you mean - there hasn't been any fighting for over 20 years.

But I used the term "frozen conflict", which refers to a situation where the fighting has stopped, but the two sides have not signed any kind of peace treaty and the issues that caused the conflict in the first place have not been resolved. Transnistria is a de facto independent country that remains unrecognized by the international community, and continues to be claimed by Moldova as part of its territory.

Presumably, Novorossiya will also end up as a de facto independent country that remains unrecognized by the international community, and continues to be claimed by Ukraine as part of its territory. That seems to be what Putin wants, too.

Constantinopolis, have you seen my previous post?

Um, yes. You were pointing out how this whole conflict would play out entirely differently if we were in a Cold-War-like situation. And I agree. We are not in any kind of "new Cold War" or anything close to it, and the people who use that term have no idea what they're talking about.

[Korva]

What exactly is the problem with it?

Corruption at every level of society continues unabated, civil rights continue to deteriorate, and Ukraine lashes itself to the losing pony.

[Constantinopolis]

What exactly is the problem with it?

Corruption at every level of society continues unabated, civil rights continue to deteriorate, and Ukraine lashes itself to the losing pony.

The first two are going to happen anyway. In fact, they're getting worse as we speak.

As for the third, it wouldn't be the losing pony if it had Ukraine on board.

[Bratislavskaya]

What exactly is the problem with it?

Corruption at every level of society continues unabated, civil rights continue to deteriorate, and Ukraine lashes itself to the losing pony.

Still happening under the current pro-EU government, other than arguably supporting the losing pony.

[Constantinopolis]

And by the way, Romania and Bulgaria have been full EU members for 8 years now, and corruption is still rampant there. The idea that a pro-EU course, by itself, can do something to reduce corruption, is beyond laughable.

[United Marxist Nations]

This changes everything!
No, I'm being sincere this time!

Uh, it's one document published by an anti-Putin newspaper in Russia (founded and part-owned by Mikhail Gorbachev, no less), which claims to have "obtained" the document somehow, without giving any details or any evidence that the document is genuine.

Unless some shred of evidence is provided, I'm going to assume this is a forgery.

Besides, if Russia was really planning to annex Novorossiya, they would have done it by now. Putin's goal is obviously to create a Transnistria-like frozen conflict in Eastern Ukraine, not to annex bits of it.

Should point out that Gorby supports the Crimean annexation.

As for the plans, were they contingency plans?

[Malgrave]

Poland is planning on sending military instructors into Ukraineto start training NCO's in the country.

[Lytenburgh]

Whitby councillor claims aliens are influencing President Putin's actions in the Ukraine conflict

Councillor Simon Parkes gave a talk in Wallsend in which he declared Putin was being advised by an alien race called the Nordics

A Labour councillor has claimed Russia’s President Putin is being advised by an alien race.

Simon Parkes told an audience of around 30 people in Wallsend, North Tyneside, that recent hostilities in Eastern Europe are down to extraterrestrial intervention.

Coun Parkes, who has previously claimed he has had ‘hundreds’ of alien encounters in his own life, blamed a group of aliens he calls the Nordics for President Putin’s aggression in the Ukraine.

The North Yorkshire councillor said the Nordics were supporting Putin against perceived American influences in the area.



He said: “Putin had been part of a group advised by reptiles. Nordics made a counter offer to Putin.

“The technology the Nordics are giving to Putin is on a par with America.

“The Nordics have told Putin he no longer has to toe the American line, hence his resistance.”

The Whitby councillor also told the audience at The Vault that, in the eyes of universal law, his legal father is a reptile.

Ahead of the session Coun Parkes, who represents Stakesby, had also viewed a video taken on Tyneside which claimed to show a UFO hovering over the North Sea.

He told the Sunday Sun: “The video strikes me as very genuine. To me, it looks like an alien craft. It appears to be a diamond shape.

“It seems funny the craft stayed there for so long, allowing him to see charge his camera. It meant they wanted to be see. Looking at the video, it is most definitely alien life.”

Tony Richardson, a self-employed artist from Durham, attended the Q&A with his girlfriend Carrie and son Daniel. The 49-year-old says he was brought up in a haunted house and praised Coun Parkes for making himself visible.

He said: “First of all, it’s very brave of Simon. He has opened himself up to a lot of ridicule. People should come out and give a platform to other people to make us realise what we are seeing.

“I think it will bring more people forward.”

Coun Parkes sparked controversy in 2013 when he took to ITV’s popular daytime show This Morning claiming he lost his virginity to an alien at the age of five.

He says his first experience of alien life came when he was still in his mother’s womb, and he has sexual relations with an alien up to four times a year.

See this photo from the article? Looks similar to this:



I wonder, what both of them are showing with their hands? Probably a size...

[Herargon]

And by the way, Romania and Bulgaria have been full EU members for 8 years now, and corruption is still rampant there. The idea that a pro-EU course, by itself, can do something to reduce corruption, is beyond laughable.

Corruption does not disappear instantly or magically with coming in the EU. What happens however is that maybe Romania and Bulgaria first have to reform their country, to adhere to the EU's advises. If only they did that, the corruption would have been lowered already, even if it was only a few percents.

Also, countries can have a different perception of what is corruption. By coming in the EU, the definition may have become more broad or less, depending on what happened.

However, Romania and Bulgaria indeed have learned what a pro-EU course means, if we look at what their relations with Russia currently now are.
An example is that a pipeline recently has been called that would go along these countries.

That may or may not be a result of the Ukraine-Russian conflict in where Romania and Bulgaria reacted against the Russians, in favour of the EU's policy.

[Herargon]

Whitby councillor claims aliens are influencing President Putin's actions in the Ukraine conflict

Councillor Simon Parkes gave a talk in Wallsend in which he declared Putin was being advised by an alien race called the Nordics

A Labour councillor has claimed Russia’s President Putin is being advised by an alien race.

Simon Parkes told an audience of around 30 people in Wallsend, North Tyneside, that recent hostilities in Eastern Europe are down to extraterrestrial intervention.

Coun Parkes, who has previously claimed he has had ‘hundreds’ of alien encounters in his own life, blamed a group of aliens he calls the Nordics for President Putin’s aggression in the Ukraine.

The North Yorkshire councillor said the Nordics were supporting Putin against perceived American influences in the area.



He said: “Putin had been part of a group advised by reptiles. Nordics made a counter offer to Putin.

“The technology the Nordics are giving to Putin is on a par with America.

“The Nordics have told Putin he no longer has to toe the American line, hence his resistance.”

The Whitby councillor also told the audience at The Vault that, in the eyes of universal law, his legal father is a reptile.

Ahead of the session Coun Parkes, who represents Stakesby, had also viewed a video taken on Tyneside which claimed to show a UFO hovering over the North Sea.

He told the Sunday Sun: “The video strikes me as very genuine. To me, it looks like an alien craft. It appears to be a diamond shape.

“It seems funny the craft stayed there for so long, allowing him to see charge his camera. It meant they wanted to be see. Looking at the video, it is most definitely alien life.”

Tony Richardson, a self-employed artist from Durham, attended the Q&A with his girlfriend Carrie and son Daniel. The 49-year-old says he was brought up in a haunted house and praised Coun Parkes for making himself visible.

He said: “First of all, it’s very brave of Simon. He has opened himself up to a lot of ridicule. People should come out and give a platform to other people to make us realise what we are seeing.

“I think it will bring more people forward.”

Coun Parkes sparked controversy in 2013 when he took to ITV’s popular daytime show This Morning claiming he lost his virginity to an alien at the age of five.

He says his first experience of alien life came when he was still in his mother’s womb, and he has sexual relations with an alien up to four times a year.

See this photo from the article? Looks similar to this:



I wonder, what both of them are showing with their hands? Probably a size...

That is what is called ''an unrelated post to the thread'', Lyt.
It is not necessary and fits better in the Russia thread.
Take it as an useful advise.

[Fartsniffage]

Whitby councillor claims aliens are influencing President Putin's actions in the Ukraine conflict

Councillor Simon Parkes gave a talk in Wallsend in which he declared Putin was being advised by an alien race called the Nordics

A Labour councillor has claimed Russia’s President Putin is being advised by an alien race.

Simon Parkes told an audience of around 30 people in Wallsend, North Tyneside, that recent hostilities in Eastern Europe are down to extraterrestrial intervention.

Coun Parkes, who has previously claimed he has had ‘hundreds’ of alien encounters in his own life, blamed a group of aliens he calls the Nordics for President Putin’s aggression in the Ukraine.

The North Yorkshire councillor said the Nordics were supporting Putin against perceived American influences in the area.



He said: “Putin had been part of a group advised by reptiles. Nordics made a counter offer to Putin.

“The technology the Nordics are giving to Putin is on a par with America.

“The Nordics have told Putin he no longer has to toe the American line, hence his resistance.”

The Whitby councillor also told the audience at The Vault that, in the eyes of universal law, his legal father is a reptile.

Ahead of the session Coun Parkes, who represents Stakesby, had also viewed a video taken on Tyneside which claimed to show a UFO hovering over the North Sea.

He told the Sunday Sun: “The video strikes me as very genuine. To me, it looks like an alien craft. It appears to be a diamond shape.

“It seems funny the craft stayed there for so long, allowing him to see charge his camera. It meant they wanted to be see. Looking at the video, it is most definitely alien life.”

Tony Richardson, a self-employed artist from Durham, attended the Q&A with his girlfriend Carrie and son Daniel. The 49-year-old says he was brought up in a haunted house and praised Coun Parkes for making himself visible.

He said: “First of all, it’s very brave of Simon. He has opened himself up to a lot of ridicule. People should come out and give a platform to other people to make us realise what we are seeing.

“I think it will bring more people forward.”

Coun Parkes sparked controversy in 2013 when he took to ITV’s popular daytime show This Morning claiming he lost his virginity to an alien at the age of five.

He says his first experience of alien life came when he was still in his mother’s womb, and he has sexual relations with an alien up to four times a year.

See this photo from the article? Looks similar to this:



I wonder, what both of them are showing with their hands? Probably a size...

Check out some of his videos on youtube. Well worth a watch...

[The balkens]

Poland is planning on sending military instructors into Ukraineto start training NCO's in the country.

Not surprising, but good on Poland for taking an interest.

[Lytenburgh]

And just to close the theme of Debaltsevo's humiliating defeat of Kiev's regime:

Hollow posturing as Kiev's troops make bitter retreat from besieged Debaltseve

Some of the soldiers were agitated, others euphoric. Shouts of “Glory to Ukraine” went up, and victory salutes were brandished. Yet their posturing seemed hollow, given the operation they were engaged in: Ukraine’s withdrawal from Debaltseve, after days of fighting against Russian-backed rebels in the strategic town.

The vehicles came thick and fast. Tanks, armoured cars, trucks, school buses, ambulances — a lot of ambulances; the evacuation used whatever transport the military could get its hands on. Some of the soldiers made the last few miles on foot.

As outgoing missiles roared from the nearby fields, one soldier was flung from an armoured vehicle that had been travelling too fast. He was knocked unconscious and seriously injured, while his comrades had little patience with the prying eyes of the media that gathered. “Take your f***ing cameras 20 miles up the road,” said one, pointing towards Debalsteve.

“Tell Putin he’s a dick, and Poroshenko that he’s his used condom,” shouted another soldier. Few had positive words for their political or military leaders.

Last week’s Minsk agreements promised a ceasefire, but offered no resolution to the standoff at Debaltseve, a transport hub in the east of Ukraine where government forces were partly surrounded. From almost the moment the deal was signed, Russian President Vladimir Putin insisted “rebel forces” had undertaken a “defensive encirclement operation” of the town. Until today, Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko insisted it remained under Ukrainian control. That Putin’s assessment was closer to the truth – but both sides were ready for the fight – raises questions as to how realistic a ceasefire was ever likely to be.

Soldiers retreating from Debaltseve told The Independent that the railway town had been effectively encircled for 10 days, ever since rebel forces took the village of Lohvinove, four miles north of the town.

From this point the main highway out of Debaltseve became impassable. It was not impossible to break through enemy lines along alternative country roads, the soldiers said, but such an operation was perilous. On Monday, only one vehicle from six made it through to the other side. Not long after the battle, rebel forces encircled the main military headquarters to the south side of the town.

A Ukrainian communications officer with the nom-de-guerre of “Iron”, told The Independent his group of perhaps 50 soldiers had been surrounded. “We still had munitions, but we were relieved when the order came through to withdraw,” he said. Fighting had been relentless throughout the period of the supposed ceasefire, he said.

After destroying 90 per cent of the military equipment at the base, the soldiers began leaving Debaltseve just after midnight on Tuesday evening. Iron’s group eventually reached Artemivsk, the next town north, at 9am the next day, having survived two ambushes. They broke through with “minimal casualties.”

Other units do not seem to have been as lucky. Speaking anonymously, an officer of the Krivbas battalion said that he estimated 10 per cent of the 400-strong battalion had been killed in the retreat, with a further 10 per cent taken captive. Their convoy came under mortar shelling, he said. Part of it was destroyed, and many of the soldiers made their way by running and crawling through mine fields.

“You forget about the mines when you’re being shot at,” said Klim Kaznachey, a soldier. Having survived a similar encirclement in Ilovaisk last August, he had critical words for military commanders, complaining that a lack of planning that left soldiers surrounded and vulnerable. “Both situations were idiotic, if we carry on like this we will lose Ukraine,” he said.

Medics at a holding hospital in Artemvisk were guarded about the numbers of wounded and killed, claiming such information was classified. One suggested between 80 and 100 wounded soldiers arrived on Wednesday.

The Independent saw nine wooden coffins and four body bags lying outside the local morgue. Between two to five thousand civilians remain in Debaltseve, unable or unwilling to leave. The town itself is lifeless: livestock roam the central streets and people rarely leave underground bomb shelters, some of them apparently running out of water. Humanitarian workers have been unable to access the town for over a week. Volunteer workers Diana Makarova and Natalya Voronkova, who had until recently organised much of the evacuation of Debaltseve, said they had received hundreds of desperate requests from the town and surrounding villages.

The volunteers said military activity had prevented them from helping for the last 10 days. “One day we received a text from a woman asking us to save her mother and grandmother; two days later came another message, asking for help to bury her mother, and save her grandmother”, said Ms Voronkova. “Shelling doesn’t scare me, but this impotence is the most frightening feeling in the world.”

This remark about "Poroshenko is used condom" comes originally from Oliver Carrol's tweets:





Another British media source, Channel 4, made a news-clip about Debaltsevo's retaking by Novorossiyan troops. Although, they made a "PG-13" translation of what was written on Ukrainian tank's cannon.

A video taken from liberated Debaltsevo. Man talks how bored Ukrainian troopers shoot at his house's windows, how their inaccurate fire burned his car to the ground. Old woman says that since town's capture in late Juky UkrArmy did nothing to restore power, water, heat and gas supply to the city. Another old woman says that some, younger, Ukrainin soldiers were constantly complaining and wished to go home, while others, older, just kept saying "WE ARE FIGHTING WITH PUTIN!11!!". She says that a lot of people remained in Debaltsevo, including children. 2 women says, that whenever Ukrainian TV came to Debaltsevo, UkrArmy bagan "discotheque" - firing their guns to emulate "terrorists" shelling of Debaltsevo. UkrArmy was using this "PR stunt" since August 24.

Despite what some anti-Russian users claim here in this thread - Novorossiyan don't execute Ukrainian POW. Otherwise, how would they've exchange prisioners with Kiev lately, giving Kiev back nearly 150 of its military personel back? This video shows how Novorossiyan army treats its POW - they are given the same food as Novorossiya's regulars, they are allowed to (finally) take a shower and change clothes and even are given medical treatment when necessary. So much for "baby eating monstrous pro-Russian separatists". Video also shows a treasure trove of trophies, gained by DPR forces, after UkrArmy's hasty and chaotic retreat. Besides food, arms and ammo, there were such "exotic" trophies as "plasma" TVs, Canadian sleeping bags and warm cltohes (officer's) and lots and lots of body armour. Including Nazi-SS helmet (5:46).

All POWs claim that they were forced into Army, that they were sent to ATO against their will (they all claim to be "otkazniks") and they "didn't want to kill the civillians". Yes - never getting old "Ay Was Just Folllovin' Mein Orders!" excuse.

Another (rather big) video showing the extent of losses in hardware that Kiev suffered at Debaltsevo's and (again) some salvagable trophies.

Still remains unresolved the mistery of what happened to nearly 5500 of UkrArmy troopers based at Debaltsevo. Becasue if we should believe over-optimistic official reports from Kiev about 2200 "made it" out of the "cauldron". The most obvious answer for this is etiher "They are all dead, Jim" or taken POWs.

P.S. And, no, I'm not celebrating other people's deaths. But, go ahead and report me anyway!

[New Oyashima]

I love that the British Typhoon did a little belly dance and showed the Russians that it's fully-armed. Seriously, though... Who on Earth is afraid of TU-95s, anymore? They're antiquated pieces of trash, just like the B-52 (only a little more shitty.)

Anybody who's intelligent?

Strategic bombers don't carry bombs these days. They're armed with nuclear cruise missiles. They might not have the same punch as an ICBM's warhead, but you can fit a pretty decent warhead on a long range cruise missile. The KH-55 will still carry a 200kt warhead 3,000 kilometers. And it's very difficult to shoot down a cruise missile once it's got going.

It's not hard at all to shoot down a cruise missile in flight, really.

[Fartsniffage]

Anybody who's intelligent?

Strategic bombers don't carry bombs these days. They're armed with nuclear cruise missiles. They might not have the same punch as an ICBM's warhead, but you can fit a pretty decent warhead on a long range cruise missile. The KH-55 will still carry a 200kt warhead 3,000 kilometers. And it's very difficult to shoot down a cruise missile once it's got going.

It's not hard at all to shoot down a cruise missile in flight, really.

Hitting a target moving at the best part of the speed of sound at less than 300 feet with a RCS of 0.01 sq. meters isn't all that easy...

[Herargon]

It's not hard at all to shoot down a cruise missile in flight, really.

Hitting a target moving at the best part of the speed of sound at less than 300 feet with a RCS of 0.01 sq. meters isn't all that easy...

But it is doable. With training.

[New Oyashima]

It's not hard at all to shoot down a cruise missile in flight, really.

Hitting a target moving at the best part of the speed of sound at less than 300 feet with a RCS of 0.01 sq. meters isn't all that easy...

You're making it sound hard, even though there are a plethora of systems designed to do just that. Including Patriot.

[Shofercia]

There's a difference between a strong relationship and being another's bitch. I'm calling things how I see them.

Well you can have an opinion, but you need to back it up with evidence. Long-winded waffle is not enough. So I will ask you again, in what why are the Baltic states, Poland and the UK "bitches" of the US? In what way does being a vital ally make one country another's "bitch"? Never mind all the differences that have occurred, they are "bitches" of the US because you said so! Astonishing!

It may come as a shock to you, but most Brits actually like Americans and America and share similar share values to them. The fact is, British (and also, Baltic and Polish) and American interests are closely aligned. So why you are absolutely shocked that the UK dares to have better relations and more in common with another English-speaking country than with a post-Soviet quasi-superpower like Russia?
It's a shame that Russia does not enjoy such "special relationships" and it's little wonder why most former Iron Curtain nations have already escaped her influence.

But thanks for your unparalleled insight into foreign policy and the complex nature of global relationships. I don't know where I would be without your ramblings and clever little catch-phrases.
As I've already said, we have nothing more to discuss. You can keep going with your ridiculous generalisations, but for me it's become too tedious that my time is probably spent better elsewhere. Whatever.

I didn't say that I'm 100% sure they're America's bitches; I said that I think they act like America's bitches. Case in point - they were cheer leading the Iraq War around the same time the US was, despite the fact that Iraq did absolutely nothing to four of them. Another case - the Baltics. Their biggest protector is the EU-Russian trade. Sure, they're protected by other things, (but not their own laughable armed forces,) but the biggest one is the EU-Russian trade. So if they were acting in their own self interest, they'd work to improve EU-Russia trade. Sure, they'd challenge Russia in other ways, but they wouldn't go against their biggest protector. On the other hand, US would benefit from a decrease of the EU-Russia trade. Thus the Baltics are acting against their own self-interest, and in the interest of the US - which would make their governments, America's bitches. In yet another case - the Ossetian War. Again, here it would be in their own self-interest to tow the French line; instead they towed the American line, being the good little bitches, (IMHO,) that they are. Take a look at who's negotiating: France & Germany. Not UK, not Poland, and certainly not the Baltics.

Ahhh, so the arrest of Eugene Debs was really for shits and giggles, right?

Debs was arrested twice: Once for defying a court injunction ordering an end to the strike he was leading as head of the American Railway Union (in 1894) and once for inciting resistance to the draft (in 1918). While one can certainly question the justice of either conviction, it's one Hell of a stretch to declare that Debs was arrested and jailed for "being a Socialist/Communist".

I was talking about the 1918 one, and I highly doubt that he was the only one "inciting resistance to the draft". Additionally, the 1918 arrest ensured that he ran for the election in 1920 from his jail cell. That's what, a 2 year arrest for "inciting resistance to the draft?" Oh wait, that was a 10 year sentence, which was magically commuted in 1921, a year after Debs' presidential run. On top of that, he got 6% in 1912, and got 3.4% while running for office from jail. For a third party against whom the media machine was geared, those aren't bad results in the US two party system. He wasn't just arrested for being a Commie, he was arrested for being effective at it.

US respects freedom of speech up a certain degree, but if you believe that freedom of speech is universal in the US, the students of Kent State would like a word.

I was living in America at the time of Kent State; you weren't. I don't know what drek you were taught about the incident when you went to school in Russia, but a quick examination of the facts of the matter showed that the Kent State shootings were the result of a bad interaction between the National Guardsmen sent to that Ohio campus during a period of widespread protest and said protestors; those familiar with it have likened it to the Boston Massacre, in so far as the soldiers responsible for the shootings lost their nerve in the midst of a tense confrontation and opened fire. There's a detailed account of the affair on Wikipedia; it's a good place to start in understanding what happened. For now, I'll simply point out that the shootings followed a tense standoff in which the National Guardsmen were attempting to disperse a crowd of protesters, and said protestors responded by hurling rocks at the soldiers trying to send them packing.

That scarcely sounds like an open-and-shut case of someone being gunned down for the mere "crime" of expressing their opinion on the War in Vietnam; when last I checked, after all, free speech rights normally don't include the right to throw physical projectiles.

As far as I recall, wasn't the Boston Massacre one of the rallying cries for the US Revolution? Perhaps this was drek taught in the US. Also, why did the confrontation happen? Oh yeah, because the students dared to protest an unjust war. That's what essentially led to it.

Or perhaps the Occupy Protesters who got maced.

Again, like it or not, it is in fact no violation of free speech rights for police to clear a public place of protestors who are there in violation of various laws against unlawful assembly.

Can't wait to tell the students of UC Santa Barbara the good news!

US can certainly afford to let Nazis march through Jewish neighborhoods, that's not a great threat. US can allow Communists to run. Heck, we even have a Pirate Party in California. But as soon as these become a threat to the political institutions, the hammer can come down rather quickly.

That's horseshit and you know it. You're just seeking a moral equivalence between Russia's dystopian pseudo-democracy and the US, which is beneath you. You're not a notable Putin fanboy, after all; so why do you feel the need to pretend that Russia's political freedoms are equal to America's, when you damned well know better?

I don't know what drek you learned in reading comprehension class, but: Simply because US has better Civil Rights than Russia, doesn't make Civil Rights unlimited in the US.

How anyone in the World can argue that I claimed that US and Russia have equal civil rights after that, is, quite frankly, beyond me. I'm not seeking a moral equivalence, I'm telling Neocons and Neolibs to get the fuck off their fucking high horse when it comes to morality.

For instance, if the Pirate Party in California started getting votes, and had an actual chance, I'm willing to bet there would be a crackdown against them, just like there was a crackdown against veterans camped outside of Washington asking to be paid for their service.

Oh, please. You want to use what happened to the Bonus Army in 1932 to assert that America is effectively a two-party dictatorship? And here I thought you were above that kind of edgy teenage "analysis". I must have read you wrong.

You did read that wrong. Here's what I actually said: You're certainly welcome to change the US system from within. But if you go outside the system with your protests and become effective, some kind of crackdown can be attempted

The Bonus Army was quite effective, so effective in fact, that the subsequent, and more intelligent administration, made a deal with them. Instead of fighting them outside of the system, they've offered the Bonus Army a chance to work within the system.

You're certainly welcome to change the US system from within. But if you go outside the system with your protests and become effective, some kind of crackdown can be attempted; or do you actually think that a 100,000 student protest in favor of proposition X, will be treated in the same manner as a 100,000 student protest against the one percent? Simply because US has better Civil Rights than Russia, doesn't make Civil Rights unlimited in the US.

Nice hedge. Civil rights are never unlimited anywhere; yet in this very statement, you concede that we tolerate far more liberty than Russia does.'

All that hedge is saying is "America ain't a shining beacon, get off that high horse!"

And all without addressing the fact that Lytt asserts... Why that oversight, Shof?

It's not an oversight; I'm not Lyt. I'm not Putin. I'm Shof. And the only organization in Russia that I've always defended, is one that you cannot even name.

Do you REALLY so need to apologize for Russian behavior and attitudes that you'll sugar coat ANYTHING?

Don't remember sugarcoating Moscow's asinine anti-gay laws, or the lack of Moscow response in the Libyan Case, or... so no, it's not anything. But you already knew that. So why such a passionate response? Afraid that some might actually get off their high horse?

[Fartsniffage]

Hitting a target moving at the best part of the speed of sound at less than 300 feet with a RCS of 0.01 sq. meters isn't all that easy...

You're making it sound hard, even though there are a plethora of systems designed to do just that. Including Patriot.

Name one that the UK has?

[The balkens]

You're making it sound hard, even though there are a plethora of systems designed to do just that. Including Patriot.

Name one that the UK has?

"Colonial Traitor".....

Ill show myself out.

[Geilinor]

And by the way, Romania and Bulgaria have been full EU members for 8 years now, and corruption is still rampant there. The idea that a pro-EU course, by itself, can do something to reduce corruption, is beyond laughable.

Those countries are the basketcases of the EU, but most EU states manage corruption better.

[Constantinopolis]

And by the way, Romania and Bulgaria have been full EU members for 8 years now, and corruption is still rampant there. The idea that a pro-EU course, by itself, can do something to reduce corruption, is beyond laughable.

Those countries are the basketcases of the EU, but most EU states manage corruption better.

Sure, but the fact that some EU states don't manage corruption at all proves what I said: The idea that a pro-EU course, by itself, can do something to reduce corruption, is beyond laughable.

Switzerland and Norway are outside the EU, and have very low corruption. Romania and Bulgaria are inside the EU, and have very high corruption. EU membership, in itself, has nothing to do with having less corruption.

[Shofercia]

Let's see here, the population of Lithuanians in Lithuania increased, eh? Just to be on the same page, an increase is when the population goes up. According to Lithuania's very own census, the population of Lithuanians in Lithuania "increased" from 2.91 million to 2.56 million. Oh no, wait, that's actually a decrease.

I was talking about during Soviet rule. Remember what you actually posted? "During the "horrible" Soviet rule, the population of Balts in the Baltics increased." As I said, this is only true of Lithuanians in Lithuania. The number of Estonians in Estonia and Latvians in Latvia decreased during Soviet rule.

Indeed, someone with simple reading comprehension might have been able to work out that I wasn't disputing that their populations fell post-independence, given that I stated that "Nevertheless, the population of these groups has decreased since independence".

Here's what I wrote: During the "horrible" Soviet rule, the population of Balts in the Baltics increased. During the "super-duper-nice-&-shiny" democratic rule, the population of Balts in the Baltics decreased, and the trio are in a demographic death spiral. Those are the facts.

Here's your response to that: To break that fact down a little bit, the population of Lithuanians in Lithuania increased. The population of Estonians in Estonia and Latvians in Latvia both declined. Nevertheless, the population of these groups has decreased since independence...

That's you arguing that the population of Lithuanians in Lithuania increased, while the population of Estonians in Estonia and Latvians in Latvia decreased, in response to my claim, that during the Soviet Union, the population of each increased, and after the fall of the USSR, the population of each, decreased. In the post-Stalin era, (which was the era that I was talking about,) the populations of Estonians in Estonia, Latvians in Latvia and Lithuanians in Lithuania, all increased. After the fall of the USSR, they all decreased. Your breakdown makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

You then go on and on and on about emigration. Except they also lack natural growth. Again, according to Lithuania's own figures, their TFR is currently averaging at 1.55 over the past few years. You need something above a 2 to grow. And when it comes to migration, Lithuania's still losing that fight, despite your factually wrong claims: http://123.emn.lt/en/general-trends/mig ... s-overview

One simply has to look at the chart of Lithuania's population: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographi ... huania.PNG

Emigration is a cause of negative natural population growth in the Baltic states, as I shall immediately explain. Most emigrants are young people so high emigration increases the median age - this is borne out by the statistics. According to the UN, the median age for Lithuania increased from 32.7 to 39.7 between 1990 and 2015. Figures for Estonia and Latvia are 34.4 to 41.3 and 34.6 to 41.7 respectively. As the population ages, the number of children born per woman drops because older people are less likely to have children, while the death rate per person increases because older people are more likely to die.

Of course, there are other causes that could lead to the death rate increasing, like poorer health. But that doesn't apply to the Baltic states in the period 1990-present as the life expectancy in all three countries has increased rather than decreased as would be the result if health was declining.

The fertility rate has, of course, been dropping. In Lithuania, this has little to do with independence or the lack thereof. Rather, its a trend that has been ongoing since the 1960s. And unfortunately it is often a result of other, positive outcomes like improved education levels for women, greater female participation in the workforce, waiting longer to get married and greater control by women over the use of contraception. Its a problem which will affect almost every developed country and one of the keys to fighting it is again to improve living standards which may improve or at least slow the decline in fertility and attract back emigrants or even new migrants.

In Lithuanian it has little to do with independence, eh? Between 1982 and 1986, Lithuania's fertility rate was on a constant increase. Furthermore, in 1978, the rate was 2.09; in 1987 the rate was 2.11, which shows a possible stabilization of the fertility rate. Between 1991 and 2002, the fertility rate fell steadily, although it's currently stabilizing around the 1.6 mark.

And it's not different from other Baltic states. Thing is, I'm allowed to factually correct you, no matter how many mod links you insert. So is every other poster, if we keep the response short and sweet, like this one. What we're not allowed to do, is to go off topic solely to bait other posters. That's not the same as pointing out that a drop from 2.91 to 2.56 is not an increase.

Well thanks anyway for pointing out that 2.56 is less than 2.91 - when you find someone who disagrees you might actually have an argument.

So, according to you, an argument is not, a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong?

Oh really? Abkhazia was strong enough to maintain its independent since the early 1990s. Where's their recognition? What about Somaliland's?

Abkhazia is lumped with South Ossetia in terms of global recognition. The same countries that do recognize South Ossetia as independent also recognize Abkhazia independent also.

And Somaliland is widely regarded as an autonomous region of Somalia. I don't think anyone really gives two shits about them as it's not really the most pressing issue in that region at the moment.

My point is that de facto countries don't always get de jure recognition. How long did it take some countries to recognize the USSR, or Communist China?

You, sir, have contributed absolutely nothing meaningful to this thread with this reaction of laughing at someone, without even explaining why you laugh.
And you even did not explain, nor confirm, nor dismiss the text. So I'd like to say that you'll have to highen up your IQ before reacting.

And no, that is not flamebaiting what I am doing. What you are doing could be called flamebaiting however.

Now you'll have the chance to add a meaningful reaction to this thread; I have a news source for anyone here, directed at anyone.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/ ... HN20150221

I'm not laughing at Jinwoy. I'm laughing at the link that he posted, because the link is funny. Talking about a Russian Spring, whilst President Putin's approval rating is above 55%, is hilarious, because whoever comes in next, (and by that I mean that I'm referring to those who can actually come to power,) is going to be worse, and Russians know this. Thus you're trying to stage popular protests against a popular leader with an outcome that's likely going to be worse than the current outcome. You cannot understand why I'm laughing at that? Next time, before using the word "IQ", please realize that laughing at a link isn't flamebait.

Since you want me to laugh at the article, I can do that, just for you! Actually, it's because this,

A rebel attack on Mariupol, a city of half a million people and potentially a gateway to Crimea, which Russia annexed last March, would almost certainly kill off a European-brokered ceasefire

is funny. It's so stupid that it's hilarious. Excuse me:

Russia's building a gateway to Crimea, since Crimea is separated by a tiny body of water from Southern Russia, and Russia's building a bridge. There's really no need for another gateway. Furthermore, Ukraine's very territorial, Oblast by Oblast. In order to obtain said gateway, the Rebels would have to take over two oblasts where they do not, currently have the support to take them over. You need local support. They don't have it. Even the Rebels stated that they only want Donetsk and Lugansk; in order to get said gateway, they'd have to annex Zaporozhiya and Kherson. That's not going to happen at this time, and two oblasts, with 2.8 million people, are not worth a land route. Mariupol is something that Rebels want, since that's a stepping stone to take over all of Donetsk. However, it's not a "gateway" just yet; in order for it to be an actual gateway, a person knowing actual geography of Ukraine would actually have to know that they need Zap and Kher. Not currently happening, and not going to happen for at least a few months, or maybe it won't happen at all. Putin doesn't really care about Mariupol, since he knows that Rebels will gets Donetsk and Lugansk, either through military means, or through the ballot box. Here's a map:



Mariupol is much closer to Novoazovsk, than it is to Crimea.