(USA) The Merits and Drawbacks of Voter ID

[Viritica]

3. And Bush passed a law to prevent it due to the concerns of the people. If people are concerned then the current administration should do like Bush did and pass laws to make voting more secure.

Right, like the Republican-controlled House will pass anything this President proposes. Anyway, all voting in the US is regulated by the states. Congress has set the dates of elections for national office but that's about it.

Uh, well, they're advocating for this law so I'm assuming they'd support it. Also, it's regulated but still absurdly easy to commit voter fraud.
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/08/DC-Polling-Place-Holder-Ballot

[Viritica]

I don't think getting a free voter ID would be that hard.

it doesn't matter if it seems hard to you. it lowers voter participation, keeping far more people from voting than the number of in person voter fraud that might be prevented. that makes it a bad idea.

by which I mean government issued photo id. going back to the normal "bring in anything that might identify you" id is fine. not necessary but shouldn't be a big problem.

If people are too lazy to get a free voter ID then that's a personal problem.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Welfare is not a Constitutional right. In order to place any obstacle between a citizen and the exercise of said rights, the onus is on those suggesting the obstacle to explain why it is necessary for it to be there. As this is currently a solution in search of a serious problem, I cannot say that this standard has been met.

No rights are being infringed upon. All that would be asked of people is that they go and receive a free voter ID.

Taking time out of one's schedule to receive an ID that many not be available withing a short distance of one's home, and that may be stolen, lost, or destroyed too soon before the election for it to be replaced is an obstacle between the person and the exercise of the franchise. As you have presented no proof of a serious enough problem to place even the most minor obstacles in between the citizen and the exercise of the franchise, your argument doesn't work? "It's not that hard?" Irrelevant. I'm neutral as to whether or not voting should be made easier, but adding even the most minor of tasks is unnecessary and uncalled for.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

How far will they have to go? During what kind of time frame will they have to arrive?

You could do it by freepost mail? as soon as your on the electoral register they send you your ID the next day? you could also make it easier by allowing people to register online as well. If you have to go into register why not set up places where people can register to vote in town halls? Turn around needn't be long, a couple of days tops.

At which point the people who wish to commit this nearly nonexistent fraud will be fully able to do so, and the people who lose their IDs, have them stolen, or whose IDs are accidentally destroyed before they can be replaced will no longer be able to vote.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Well I don't know how the US does it, but the polling station in my town is a primary school the rest of the time. The kids get a day off when there's an election or referendum. Couldn't very well use that as a place to pick up voter IDs.

---

But now that Obama has the big seat, suddenly there's a pressing need to stamp out fraud. Weird how that works.

We get a day off for election days too. Schools would be a good place for it.

And it's always been an issue, to be quite honest.

No, it hasn't.

[Viritica]

No rights are being infringed upon. All that would be asked of people is that they go and receive a free voter ID.

Taking time out of one's schedule to receive an ID that many not be available withing a short distance of one's home, and that may be stolen, lost, or destroyed too soon before the election for it to be replaced is an obstacle between the person and the exercise of the franchise. As you have presented no proof of a serious enough problem to place even the most minor obstacles in between the citizen and the exercise of the franchise, your argument doesn't work? "It's not that hard?" Irrelevant. I'm neutral as to whether or not voting should be made easier, but adding even the most minor of tasks is unnecessary and uncalled for.

But my god, Yumyum, if it's that painstaking then golly gee willikers how can we expect people to hold onto a driving license? Considering that all it takes to commit voter ID fraud is to go to a voting booth and give a false name I'm rather alarmed that you don't give a shit. Maybe you don't like security? I don't know. I'd support voter ID facilities being close to home, else people like you would needlessly bitch about the oh so painful process of navigating a minor distance. And, as I've stated before, without mechanisms in place to stop it we can't be sure how much it might be occurring.

[Viritica]

We get a day off for election days too. Schools would be a good place for it.

And it's always been an issue, to be quite honest.

No, it hasn't.

You don't get what I'm saying. I'm stating that it's always been easy to commit voter fraud.

[Kelmet]

You mean I should have to prove who I am to vote?
But that's Racist, Like the Democratic party tells me!

[Viritica]

You mean I should have to prove who I am to vote?
But that's Racist, Like the Democratic party tells me!

It's all a Rethuglican conspiracy created by KKKoch!

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Taking time out of one's schedule to receive an ID that many not be available withing a short distance of one's home, and that may be stolen, lost, or destroyed too soon before the election for it to be replaced is an obstacle between the person and the exercise of the franchise. As you have presented no proof of a serious enough problem to place even the most minor obstacles in between the citizen and the exercise of the franchise, your argument doesn't work? "It's not that hard?" Irrelevant. I'm neutral as to whether or not voting should be made easier, but adding even the most minor of tasks is unnecessary and uncalled for.

But my god, Yumyum, if it's that painstaking then golly gee willikers how can we expect people to hold onto a driving license? Considering that all it takes to commit voter ID fraud is to go to a voting booth and give a false name I'm rather alarmed that you don't give a shit. Maybe you don't like security? I don't know. I'd support voter ID facilities being close to home, else people like you would needlessly bitch about the oh so painful process of navigating a minor distance. And, as I've stated before, without mechanisms in place to stop it we can't be sure how much it might be occurring.

Driving is not a constitutional right.

You have still provided no proof that this is happening to a significant enough degree to make it workable.

It's nice that you'd support Voter ID outlets being located close to everyone's home, but you haven't shown how you'd do so. And guess what? You still haven't shown that it's necessary.

There are ways to show if it's occurring. Go to voting districts, get the public records of who has voted, then survey the people to ensure that they a) Are alive, and b) Did vote in that election. If people do this and there's a serious pattern of discrepancies, I'll rethink my position.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

No, it hasn't.

You don't get what I'm saying. I'm stating that it's always been easy to commit voter fraud.

You haven't shown that it happens to any significant degree, and the report shows that it doesn't happen.

[Farnhamia]

No, it hasn't.

You don't get what I'm saying. I'm stating that it's always been easy to commit voter fraud.

And we're saying that despite that, there is no evidence that voter fraud - which we ought to define, you know - has changed the outcome of an election on the national level.

To me, voter fraud is voting by ineligible people, either non-citizens or people pretending to be someone else. Election fraud is stuffing the ballot box or otherwise fixing the results after the votes have been cast.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

You mean I should have to prove who I am to vote?
But that's Racist, Like the Democratic party tells me!

I'm sure that it's just a coincidence that most people who do not have identification are poor and/or racial minorities, and are therefore disproportionately affected by Voter ID laws.

[Viritica]

But my god, Yumyum, if it's that painstaking then golly gee willikers how can we expect people to hold onto a driving license? Considering that all it takes to commit voter ID fraud is to go to a voting booth and give a false name I'm rather alarmed that you don't give a shit. Maybe you don't like security? I don't know. I'd support voter ID facilities being close to home, else people like you would needlessly bitch about the oh so painful process of navigating a minor distance. And, as I've stated before, without mechanisms in place to stop it we can't be sure how much it might be occurring.

1. Driving is not a constitutional right.

2. You have still provided no proof that this is happening to a significant enough degree to make it workable.

3. It's nice that you'd support Voter ID outlets being located close to everyone's home, but you haven't shown how you'd do so. And guess what? You still haven't shown that it's necessary.

4. There are ways to show if it's occurring. Go to voting districts, get the public records of who has voted, then survey the people to ensure that they a) Are alive, and b) Did vote in that election. If people do this and there's a serious pattern of discrepancies, I'll rethink my position.

1. And voter IDs don't infringe upon people's rights, so your point is moot.
2. I feel like a broken record, but without mechanisms in place to stop it we can't tell how much it might be occurring. Also, here: http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/sep/13/eddie-bernice-johnson/voter-fraud-occurs-texas-though-convictions-and-gu/

Not exactly all of the US but it is rather telling.
3. Uh, maybe on Election Day open voter ID booths in schools when they're closed? This shit ain't hard.
4. That really only addresses voting in the name of a dead person.

[Viritica]

You don't get what I'm saying. I'm stating that it's always been easy to commit voter fraud.

You haven't shown that it happens to any significant degree, and the report shows that it doesn't happen.

And the report is a croak of shit.

http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/sep/13/eddie-bernice-johnson/voter-fraud-occurs-texas-though-convictions-and-gu/

[Viritica]

You don't get what I'm saying. I'm stating that it's always been easy to commit voter fraud.

And we're saying that despite that, there is no evidence that voter fraud - which we ought to define, you know - has changed the outcome of an election on the national level.

To me, voter fraud is voting by ineligible people, either non-citizens or people pretending to be someone else. Election fraud is stuffing the ballot box or otherwise fixing the results after the votes have been cast.

http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/sep/13/eddie-bernice-johnson/voter-fraud-occurs-texas-though-convictions-and-gu/

[Blakk Metal]

You don't get what I'm saying. I'm stating that it's always been easy to commit voter fraud.

You haven't shown that it happens to any significant degree, and the report shows that it doesn't happen.

We're looking for political conspiracies with the ability to repeatedly fill out papers, not a few dumbasses who cannot into eligibility.

You don't get what I'm saying. I'm stating that it's always been easy to commit voter fraud.

And we're saying that despite that, there is no evidence that voter fraud - which we ought to define, you know

The standard Republic narrative says that leftist organizations have employed a large amount of illegal immigrants to vote favorably repeatedly using fake voter identities.

You mean I should have to prove who I am to vote?
But that's Racist, Like the Democratic party tells me!

I'm sure that it's just a coincidence that most people who do not have identification are poor and/or racial minorities, and are therefore disproportionately affected by Voter ID laws.

Considering Alabama gives away ID for indicates the Republicans genuinely believe that Voter ID will stop an organization with the ability to fabricate numerous voter identities.

[Farnhamia]

And we're saying that despite that, there is no evidence that voter fraud - which we ought to define, you know - has changed the outcome of an election on the national level.

To me, voter fraud is voting by ineligible people, either non-citizens or people pretending to be someone else. Election fraud is stuffing the ballot box or otherwise fixing the results after the votes have been cast.

http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/sep/13/eddie-bernice-johnson/voter-fraud-occurs-texas-though-convictions-and-gu/

[Texas Attorney General] Abbott spokeswoman Lauren Bean emailed us records showing that from August 2002 through September 2012, the office received 616 allegations of election-code violations and recorded 78 election-code prosecutions.

By our count, 46 of the prosecutions ended with a conviction, guilty plea, no-contest plea or guilty plea as part of deferred adjudication. Of those, 18 cases appeared to involve fraud committed by individual voters: 12 cases with ineligible voters, five cases of voter impersonation and one case of voting more than once.

So, by our reading of the attorney general’s records, 18 instances of voter fraud have been confirmed in Texas since 2002.

In 2012, the News21 investigative project headquartered at Arizona State University’s journalism school compiled a database that showed 104 Texas cases of alleged election fraud among 2,068 nationwide since 2000.

Whoa! 18 bad votes in Texas in ten years. And before you say it, I never said there was none, I said there's no evidence that what little voter fraud there may be ever changed the outcome of a state or national election.

[Farnhamia]

The standard Republic narrative says that leftist organizations have employed a large amount of illegal immigrants to vote favorably repeatedly using fake voter identities.

Which is why the Democrats won that resounding victory in the House in 2012 and why the Democrats are not worried at all about the 2014 mid-terms and why there are so many Democratic governors across the country.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

1. Driving is not a constitutional right.

2. You have still provided no proof that this is happening to a significant enough degree to make it workable.

3. It's nice that you'd support Voter ID outlets being located close to everyone's home, but you haven't shown how you'd do so. And guess what? You still haven't shown that it's necessary.

4. There are ways to show if it's occurring. Go to voting districts, get the public records of who has voted, then survey the people to ensure that they a) Are alive, and b) Did vote in that election. If people do this and there's a serious pattern of discrepancies, I'll rethink my position.

1. And voter IDs don't infringe upon people's rights, so your point is moot.
2. I feel like a broken record, but without mechanisms in place to stop it we can't tell how much it might be occurring. Also, here: http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/sep/13/eddie-bernice-johnson/voter-fraud-occurs-texas-though-convictions-and-gu/

Not exactly all of the US but it is rather telling.
3. Uh, maybe on Election Day open voter ID booths in schools when they're closed? This shit ain't hard.
4. That really only addresses voting in the name of a dead person.

1. Anything that stands between a citizen and exercise of his or her constitutional rights is, de facto, an infringement upon said rights. This is not automatically a bad thing if said infringement is necessary in order to maintain public safety and order, thus the prohibition against shouting fire in a crowded theater.

2. From your source:

So, by our reading of the attorney general’s records, 18 instances of voter fraud have been confirmed in Texas since 2002.

Texas has 13,065,425 registered voters. This means that (rounding off the fraction), we see that for every 725,857 votes cast in the Great State of Texas, one was shown to be fraudulent. I consider that the very definition of "Not a major issue".

3. So in order to vote, you go to the school, pick up your ID, then vote? That's...fascinating. And wouldn't prevent the sort of fraud you're talking about.

4. No, it doesn't. You call people's homes. "This is blah blah from the Registrar's Office. Would you be willing to take a one-question survey to increase the security of our electoral process? Yes? Our records show that you voted in the last election. Did you do so? Yes? Thank you."

[Yumyumsuppertime]

You haven't shown that it happens to any significant degree, and the report shows that it doesn't happen.

And the report is a croak of shit.

http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2013/sep/13/eddie-bernice-johnson/voter-fraud-occurs-texas-though-convictions-and-gu/

"Crock", not "Croak". And you really should read your sources before you link them in order to avoid embarrassment.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

You haven't shown that it happens to any significant degree, and the report shows that it doesn't happen.

We're looking for political conspiracies with the ability to repeatedly fill out papers, not a few dumbasses who cannot into eligibility.

And we're saying that despite that, there is no evidence that voter fraud - which we ought to define, you know

The standard Republic narrative says that leftist organizations have employed a large amount of illegal immigrants to vote favorably repeatedly using fake voter identities.

I'm sure that it's just a coincidence that most people who do not have identification are poor and/or racial minorities, and are therefore disproportionately affected by Voter ID laws.

Considering Alabama gives away ID for indicates the Republicans genuinely believe that Voter ID will stop an organization with the ability to fabricate numerous voter identities.

1. Show me the conspiracy. Some paper trail, some credible source.

2. The standard Republican narrative is a load of shit, in this as in many other things.

3. The fact that they're giving away this ID for free shows that they're hoping to look innocent as they place one more obstacle there.

[ALMF]

According to Wikipedia:

A voter ID law is a law that requires some form of identification in order to vote or receive a ballot for an election. In the United States, voter ID laws are in place in 30 states.

According to its proponents, voter ID has the effect of conferring far more accurate electoral results, and preventing electoral fraud such as ballot stuffing. Other measures with the stated goal of preventing electoral fraud include things like compulsory voting.

However, its critics claim that voter ID laws disproportionately affect less-well-off and minority voters, who may be subject to discrimination in the ID procurement process. This would, obviously, completely negate the original benefits of voter ID: more accurate electoral results.

I can see the benefits of voter ID, but also its risks; i'm sort of neutral on it.

What does NSG think of voter ID?

The supposed voter fraud, it is supposed to prevent, has been disproved time and time and time again. Given this we can know even the proponates don't bleave it. We can therefore conclude we are dealing with somthing identical to literacy tests in the south: with predictably similar resolute.

Voter Id has a similar effect on illegitimacy to precivil-rights southern voting restrictions. The only solution, it seems to me, is fruit of the poisons tree. This wold look like rejecting the elections under it as unconstational. Then the FotPT the congregational votes are tainted and the outcomes are corrected for the elimination of the false congresspeople/senators. With the predictable effects on budgets, laws, arrests, et al.

[Blakk Metal]

We're looking for political conspiracies with the ability to repeatedly fill out papers, not a few dumbasses who cannot into eligibility.

The standard Republic narrative says that leftist organizations have employed a large amount of illegal immigrants to vote favorably repeatedly using fake voter identities.

Considering Alabama gives away ID for indicates the Republicans genuinely believe that Voter ID will stop an organization with the ability to fabricate numerous voter identities.

1. Show me the conspiracy. Some paper trail, some credible source.

2. The standard Republican narrative is a load of shit, in this as in many other things.

3. The fact that they're giving away this ID for free shows that they're hoping to look innocent as they place one more obstacle there.

You're paranoid. Why can't you handle the fact that the Republicans are just incorrect?

[Ashmoria]

it doesn't matter if it seems hard to you. it lowers voter participation, keeping far more people from voting than the number of in person voter fraud that might be prevented. that makes it a bad idea.

by which I mean government issued photo id. going back to the normal "bring in anything that might identify you" id is fine. not necessary but shouldn't be a big problem.

If people are too lazy to get a free voter ID then that's a personal problem.

no its not

its a societal problem. representative democracy works best when every voter gets to vote. people being needlessly and artificially prevented from voting erodes respect for the system.