Social Democracy

[The Steel Magnolia]

Isn't, uh, democratic socialism, uh, socialist? I was under the impression that social democracy, while evolving out of many of the same sentiments, still fundamentally espouses a mixed economy.

Oh, and yes, I'm a Social Democrat.

[Divair]

Isn't, uh, democratic socialism, uh, socialist? I was under the impression that social democracy, while evolving out of many of the same sentiments, still fundamentally espouses a mixed economy.

Oh, and yes, I'm a Social Democrat.

Welcome to the club.

[Trotskylvania]

Social democracy is in retreat across the world. And it's been so-called social democratic parties that have been leading the charge.

It cannot survive the increasingly atomized, faux-individualist ideology of late capitalism. And since the events that led to the birth of social democracy are essentially no longer in the living memory, and the ruling classes have no experience of their own privation or dealing with radicalism, neo-liberal capitalism has been the order of the day. And your social democrats have been the ones selling you out, one battle at a time.

And the reason is simple: as Marx noted in the Grundrisse, capital cannot abide a limit. Market relations have to penetrate every sphere of existence, and all aspects of life must be comodified. Welfare states are anathema to the interests of capital. Hence, the inexorable retreat since the 70s.

I'd like to direct you to the democratic revolution of Iceland recently.

Yes, a small rebellion against international capital that results in the maintenance of the status quo. Hardly a rebirth of classic social democracy. It's a holding action and nothing more.

[Jafas United]

Well I shouldn't ignore the good features of a social democracy i.e. national healthcare, a mixed economy, decent levels of education etc.

But social democracy isn't perfect. Far from it. What regulations are you referring to?

By the way, the country is New Zealand.

There are ways to ensure a government is earning enough to prevent a bubble (ensuring state companies are successful, closing tax loopholes, etc), there are ways to prevent welfare abuse (inspections, background checks, etc), and there are ways to ensure stability between unions and employers.

Of course there are. But by doing things such as welfare checks and controlling the power of unions, it would be going further away from what social democracy really is, would it not?

[Divair]

There are ways to ensure a government is earning enough to prevent a bubble (ensuring state companies are successful, closing tax loopholes, etc), there are ways to prevent welfare abuse (inspections, background checks, etc), and there are ways to ensure stability between unions and employers.

Of course there are. But by doing things such as welfare checks and controlling the power of unions, it would be going further away from what social democracy really is, would it not?

Nope. At least not in my book.

[Jafas United]

How dare you be peaceful with me. This is NSG.

Democratic socialism and social democracy have fairly similar goals. We just have different means of achieving those goals.

Both of you have the same means of achieving your goals, actually. Through democratic processes.

Social Democracy is closer to capitalism, except it's against unrestricted capitalism and is for placing restrictions on it. Which is why some place it in the "socialist" category, when it really isn't.

Democratic Socialism refers to a society where the means of production and distribution are ordered democratically and by society as a whole.

I know I'm oversimplifying it, but yeah.

[Audacious Huxley]

Social democracy is in retreat across the world. And it's been so-called social democratic parties that have been leading the charge.

It cannot survive the increasingly atomized, faux-individualist ideology of late capitalism. And since the events that led to the birth of social democracy are essentially no longer in the living memory, and the ruling classes have no experience of their own privation or dealing with radicalism, neo-liberal capitalism has been the order of the day. And your social democrats have been the ones selling you out, one battle at a time.

And the reason is simple: as Marx noted in the Grundrisse, capital cannot abide a limit. Market relations have to penetrate every sphere of existence, and all aspects of life must be comodified. Welfare states are anathema to the interests of capital. Hence, the inexorable retreat since the 70s.

Are you putting forth the proposal that once the pacifying aspects of social democracy are torn away, the masses will turn to radical leftist thought with great alacrity?

[Socialist EU]

Ever since I discovered social democracy many years ago, I've been a staunch supporter of social democrat ideals being implemented wherever possible. It's a great system that allows individuals to have maximum freedom while ensuring that society as a whole continues to progress forwards.

Er, according to Moshé Machover, the welfare state in Israel is effectively non-existent now. The Israeli Labor party has gone down with it!

[Socialist EU]

Social democracy is in retreat across the world. And it's been so-called social democratic parties that have been leading the charge.

It cannot survive the increasingly atomized, faux-individualist ideology of late capitalism. And since the events that led to the birth of social democracy are essentially no longer in the living memory, and the ruling classes have no experience of their own privation or dealing with radicalism, neo-liberal capitalism has been the order of the day. And your social democrats have been the ones selling you out, one battle at a time.

And the reason is simple: as Marx noted in the Grundrisse, capital cannot abide a limit. Market relations have to penetrate every sphere of existence, and all aspects of life must be comodified. Welfare states are anathema to the interests of capital. Hence, the inexorable retreat since the 70s.

^This^

[Keronians]

Its mostly free market principles, emphasis on human rights and social justice, its recognition of the need for the State for setting up important institutions necessary for a functioning economy, as well as the provision of safety nets for the poor, sick, disabled, and old.

[Chestaan]

It seems to me that most of the social democratic parties are abandoning or have abandoned their ideals. Look at the British Labour party, they're essentially just another centre right party now.

[Konzekwenzia]

Are you putting forth the proposal that once the pacifying aspects of social democracy are torn away, the masses will turn to radical leftist thought with great alacrity?

Well seeing as social democracy was a way for the ruling classes to placate the masses in the first place...

[Audacious Huxley]

Are you putting forth the proposal that once the pacifying aspects of social democracy are torn away, the masses will turn to radical leftist thought with great alacrity?

Well seeing as social democracy was a way for the ruling classes to placate the masses in the first place...

I've always thought so. But I like hearing bold visions of the future.

[Konzekwenzia]

Well seeing as social democracy was a way for the ruling classes to placate the masses in the first place...

I've always thought so. But I like hearing bold visions of the future.

Death. Death everywhere.

[Socialist EU]

It seems to me that most of the social democratic parties are abandoning or have abandoned their ideals. Look at the British Labour party, they're essentially just another centre rightparty now.

It's not quite as bad as that, but I know what you mean.

[The Finnish Republic (Ancient)]

I'm a Democratic Socialist and Left-wing nationalist, but I was a social democrat until about August last year. I'm sympathetic to quite a few social democratic ideas, I just think it's not left-wing enough for me. But, Social democracy is better than 3rd way

[Vecherd]

I might be in a special position, living in Norway, where Social Democracy includes Traditionalism, Conservatism, Nationalism and Authoritarianism. So I might be a bit Nordic-centric when I say it is an extremely unfair and authoritarian way to rule a country.

[The Finnish Republic (Ancient)]

It seems to me that most of the social democratic parties are abandoning or have abandoned their ideals. Look at the British Labour party, they're essentially just another centre rightparty now.

It's not quite as bad as that, but I know what you mean.

That's why I left Social democracy; the rightward drift

[New Freedomstan]

I dislike it, but it certainly beats raw capitalism. The socialdemocrats here in Norway have been responsible for betrayal after betrayal of the socialist cause, the unions and the rural communities. Then again, I'm a patriotic agrarian communist/revolutionary socialist, so I don't have much options outside of Leninism.

[Hydesland]

If people want to swap shit then let them swap shit, jaysus.

[Divair]

Ever since I discovered social democracy many years ago, I've been a staunch supporter of social democrat ideals being implemented wherever possible. It's a great system that allows individuals to have maximum freedom while ensuring that society as a whole continues to progress forwards.

Er, according to Moshé Machover, the welfare state in Israel is effectively non-existent now. The Israeli Labor party has gone down with it!

Aye, Israel has been moving towards centrist ideals for quite a while now, but it still has a mixed economy and larger than normal welfare programs.

[Mavorpen]

Both of you have the same means of achieving your goals, actually. Through democratic processes.

Social Democracy is closer to capitalism, except it's against unrestricted capitalism and is for placing restrictions on it. Which is why some place it in the "socialist" category, when it really isn't.

Democratic Socialism refers to a society where the means of production and distribution are ordered democratically and by society as a whole.

I know I'm oversimplifying it, but yeah.

That's a good explanation.

[Veladio]

I guess i would agree with social democracy as far as civil liberties go...but what is your economic stance?

[Genivaria]

I guess i would agree with social democracy as far as civil liberties go...but what is your economic stance?

Its basically a sort of regulated capitalism.

[Mavorpen]

I guess i would agree with social democracy as far as civil liberties go...but what is your economic stance?

Regulated capitalism and a strong safety net.