Surge 2014: A debate on Illegal Immigration and US Policies.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Personally, I find the situation extremely frustrating. I would not want my tax dollars to be spent on diapers and housing for the undocumented. The entire protocol of processing them and requiring the undocumented to appear at "immigration court" is outrageous. They are obviously guilty of unlawfully trespassing into another country and a court hearing is absolutely unnecessary. They need to be deported immediately without processing of any kind because they are too much of a drain on resources.

Stories like this greatly upset me because my parents lawfully immigrated to the United States from the Philippines and gave birth to me here. My parents earned their citizenship by working and waiting in line like other hard working families. To see these undocumented people who come and then protest for citizenship because they think they are entitled to it.

There should be absolutely no special laws to give any undocumented people any benefits of any kind because that would be a smack to the face to the people who waited years to earn their citizenship.

Naturalized Citizen here.

I don't feel it's a smack to the face to people who waited years to earn theirs. Stop lumping me with you or making me feel like this is my opinion because it's not. I could give a fuck less about "benefits" and how "bad" should I feel because we're giving immigrants a path to citizenship. I care more about what works, not any petty pride I should feel out of a piece of paper that doesn't stop other people from other races from being racist towards me anyhow.

And in case you should know, I only accepted to become a citizen so I could spit to all the racists in the face who told me I was never going to be accepted by them as an American and that they'd first kill me before they were going to accept me as a citizen; that I was nothing but trash because I was not a citizen and supported a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants. That's all it means to me, a piece of paper that I can wave at them and show them that I am not as racist, xenophobic, and idiotic as they are. So sorry to burst your bubble, but not all American Citizens feel as comfy and proud about their piece of paper as you make us seem; some of us do it out of necessity and sometimes - like me - out of to prove a point to people who are not too smart to get that they can't stop me.

[Salandriagado]

show me where i said that a declining population was a problem.

Based on your argument about white people's poor fertility rates, I thought you wanted to import immigrants to increase fertility rates and populations. This is a common pro-immigrant stance. I thought you were concerned about Germany's demographics (falling population and increasing age rates).

Also: I don't know why an older population is bad. 50 is the new 40. People are living longer so of course the average age should be expected to go up.

Aging populations increase the dependency ratio, which can cripple an economy.

[Freiheit Reich]

Based on your argument about white people's poor fertility rates, I thought you wanted to import immigrants to increase fertility rates and populations. This is a common pro-immigrant stance. I thought you were concerned about Germany's demographics (falling population and increasing age rates).

Also: I don't know why an older population is bad. 50 is the new 40. People are living longer so of course the average age should be expected to go up.

Aging populations increase the dependency ratio, which can cripple an economy.

Only if they retire at the same age as in 1940. If they are living longer, they can work longer. A 70 year old is not useless in society. Maybe they could work part-time. Besides, if they live with their children and grandchildren, they can take care of the domestic chores of the home meaning no need to hire maids or babysitters. Their cost would not be high because they only need food and clothing and a few minor expenses. 3 generations under one roof is the way to go. It is done all the time in China and there are many benefits to this, one being cost savings.

Health care costs are an issue. The solution, only pay to treat the minor problems and if costs are too high for an elderly person, let the person die of natural causes as was done in 1940.

[Othelos]

Aging populations increase the dependency ratio, which can cripple an economy.

Only if they retire at the same age as in 1940. If they are living longer, they can work longer. A 70 year old is not useless in society. Maybe they could work part-time. Besides, if they live with their children and grandchildren, they can take care of the domestic chores of the home meaning no need to hire maids or babysitters. Their cost would not be high because they only need food and clothing and a few minor expenses. 3 generations under one roof is the way to go. It is done all the time in China and there are many benefits to this, one being cost savings.

Health care costs are an issue. The solution, only pay to treat the minor problems and if costs are too high for an elderly person, let the person die of natural causes as was done in 1940.

That screams human rights violations. Instead, we'd save a lot of money with voluntary end of life euthanasia.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Aging populations increase the dependency ratio, which can cripple an economy.

Only if they retire at the same age as in 1940. If they are living longer, they can work longer. A 70 year old is not useless in society. Maybe they could work part-time. Besides, if they live with their children and grandchildren, they can take care of the domestic chores of the home meaning no need to hire maids or babysitters. Their cost would not be high because they only need food and clothing and a few minor expenses. 3 generations under one roof is the way to go. It is done all the time in China and there are many benefits to this, one being cost savings.

Health care costs are an issue. The solution, only pay to treat the minor problems and if costs are too high for an elderly person, let the person die of natural causes as was done in 1940.

Have you ever thought some people are not into having sex in the next room from where their parents are sleeping?

[Freiheit Reich]

Only if they retire at the same age as in 1940. If they are living longer, they can work longer. A 70 year old is not useless in society. Maybe they could work part-time. Besides, if they live with their children and grandchildren, they can take care of the domestic chores of the home meaning no need to hire maids or babysitters. Their cost would not be high because they only need food and clothing and a few minor expenses. 3 generations under one roof is the way to go. It is done all the time in China and there are many benefits to this, one being cost savings.

Health care costs are an issue. The solution, only pay to treat the minor problems and if costs are too high for an elderly person, let the person die of natural causes as was done in 1940.

That screams human rights violations. Instead, we'd save a lot of money with voluntary end of life euthanasia.

I meant optional, not forceful euthanasia for those with life-threatening diseases like cancer .

[Genivaria]

We should be taking a page out of Europe's book and establish ties that bring the North American continent together financially.
Helping alleviate poverty as well as aiding in the Drug War is the to go I think.

[Fireye]

Anyone has the capacity to commit crime. Immigrant or not. We can always deport those who commit crime.

Well the ILLEGALs have already committed a crime so when will they be deported?

The government is deporting undocumented immigrants, unfortunately. Deportation destroys families, and hurts people who risked their lived just to get to this country. If they really want to be here, we should offer undocumented immigrants a pathway to citizenship, it's only fair.

No. It's NOT fair. And I don't see how you can POSSIBLY believe that it is.

Fair is applying for an H-1B, L-1, PERM, etc., like anyone else who immigrates here.

Fair is not saying "fuck the line, I'm just going to walk into Americaland^(tm) and not buy my ticket."

Edit: minor addition.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

The government is deporting undocumented immigrants, unfortunately. Deportation destroys families, and hurts people who risked their lived just to get to this country. If they really want to be here, we should offer undocumented immigrants a pathway to citizenship, it's only fair.

No. It's NOT fair. And I don't see how you can POSSIBLY believe that it is.

Fair is applying for an H-1B, L-1, PERM, etc., like anyone else who immigrates here.

Fair is not saying "fuck the line, I'm just going to walk into Americaland^(tm) and not buy my ticket."

Edit: minor addition.

Eh, I don't speak about fairness because most of you flip your shit even though legal immigrants do not.

I just care to see the country thrive and if keeping them here is going to (read: yes it will) then it's best if we give them a path to at least permanent residency and let them apply like everyone else but still keep them here so they can work and contribute to our economy.

[Arkinesia]

Only if they retire at the same age as in 1940. If they are living longer, they can work longer. A 70 year old is not useless in society. Maybe they could work part-time. Besides, if they live with their children and grandchildren, they can take care of the domestic chores of the home meaning no need to hire maids or babysitters. Their cost would not be high because they only need food and clothing and a few minor expenses. 3 generations under one roof is the way to go. It is done all the time in China and there are many benefits to this, one being cost savings.

Health care costs are an issue. The solution, only pay to treat the minor problems and if costs are too high for an elderly person, let the person die of natural causes as was done in 1940.

Have you ever thought some people are not into having sex in the next room from where their parents are sleeping?

He probably thinks sex is evil or that it's a “luxury.”

[Freiheit Reich]

Have you ever thought some people are not into having sex in the next room from where their parents are sleeping?

He probably thinks sex is evil or that it's a “luxury.”

Having sex is not a luxury.

Having kids is a luxury though, don't have kids you can't afford. If you need the low-cost child labor in your home, get a kid from the local orphanage (especially applies to developing nations).

Plenty of people are willing to deal with the issue about having sex with parents next door. They manage in China. Besides, what about parents with children in the same home? Do they stop having sex because they have a child living in the home?

[Gig em Aggies]

Here's somethin interesting to ponder on. I found it while waiting for class to start

http://www.latimes.com/nation/politics/politicsnow/la-pn-obama-impeachment-20140725-story.html

[The Re-Frisivisiaing]

Let them all in, have them study up for the citizenship test, and let them live. They've decided that they want to be Americans and that's fine.

[Threayce]

He probably thinks sex is evil or that it's a “luxury.”

Having sex is not a luxury.

Having kids is a luxury though, don't have kids you can't afford.

How in the hell does this work?

You have to have a luxury to make a non-luxury into a luxury?

That makes no goddamn sense.

[Blakk Metal]

let them live.

We're gonna kill them now? Is that why California has stopped putting murderers to death, to make room for illegal immigrants?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

let them live.

We're gonna kill them now? Is that why California has stopped putting murderers to death, to make room for illegal immigrants?

That is such a profound analysis of his argument.

Congratulations, you've outdone yourself.

[Blakk Metal]

We're gonna kill them now? Is that why California has stopped putting murderers to death, to make room for illegal immigrants?

That is such a profound analysis of his argument.

I'm making fun of him for handling his words shittly.

[Threayce]

That is such a profound analysis of his argument.

I'm making fun of him for handling his words shittly.

Rhetoric: yr doin it wrng

[Gig em Aggies]

I'm making fun of him for handling his words shittly.

Rhetoric: yr doin it wrng

No he went to the Kim Jong ill school of engrish

[The Re-Frisivisiaing]

That is such a profound analysis of his argument.

I'm making fun of him for handling his words shittly.

Let's not be pompous here, it was clear from my post that what I meant was that they should be allowed to live in the US with no fear of deportation.

[Freiheit Reich]

Having sex is not a luxury.

Having kids is a luxury though, don't have kids you can't afford.

How in the hell does this work?

You have to have a luxury to make a non-luxury into a luxury?

That makes no goddamn sense.

In case you didn't know, many people have sex and don't have kids. This can actually be planned and permanent. To be safe you can even get this:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health ... /vasectomy

http://www.hhs.gov/opa/reproductive-hea ... index.html

Yes, sterilization costs money (although I think the US govt. and other nations should subsidize if possible this but not reversals) but having a child usually costs a lot more money.

Maybe both are luxuries but having a child is a bigger luxury. It is like comparing buying a bicycle vs. a sports car.

The only time it might be worth having a child if you are poor is if you are planning to sell or hire out the child as some people do. However, in the USA this is illegal so the child can't usually earn their keep and they cost the family money.

[Freiheit Reich]

I'm making fun of him for handling his words shittly.

Let's not be pompous here, it was clear from my post that what I meant was that they should be allowed to live in the US with no fear of deportation.

Easily misunderstood.

'Let them live without fear of deportation' would have been easier to understand. Four extra words make a big difference in the sentence.

I agree, if they have the right education, the right amount of money in the bank, can make the right size donation to the US govt., don't come from an evil nation (a list should be made of uncivilized, violent nations with large numbers of terrorist supporters-list is subject to change, no Latin American nation should be on this list as of now) and don't have a serious criminal background (I am fine with overlooking most crimes but murderers and real rapists might not make the best citizens) and fill out the proper paperwork than they can live without the fear of deportation.

I agree with you but just added a few simple stipulations.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Let's not be pompous here, it was clear from my post that what I meant was that they should be allowed to live in the US with no fear of deportation.

Easily misunderstood.

'Let them live without fear of deportation' would have been easier to understand. Four extra words make a big difference in the sentence.

I agree, if they have the right education, the right amount of money in the bank, can make the right size donation to the US govt., don't come from an evil nation (a list should be made of uncivilized, violent nations with large numbers of terrorist supporters-list is subject to change, no Latin American nation should be on this list as of now) and don't have a serious criminal background (I am fine with overlooking most crimes but murderers and real rapists might not make the best citizens) and fill out the proper paperwork than they can live without the fear of deportation.

I agree with you but just added a few simple stipulations.

I think we should ask the same from them as we do out of any other person in America: to know and respect our laws, to have them pay back taxes if they have been here illegally for some period of time, and to have them working like everyone else.

You are assuming several things here with "right size donations"; you're assuming that for one, I and other immigrants got our citizenship through bribery, and that's insulting.

[Threayce]

How in the hell does this work?

You have to have a luxury to make a non-luxury into a luxury?

That makes no goddamn sense.

In case you didn't know, many people have sex and don't have kids. This can actually be planned and permanent. To be safe you can even get this:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health ... /vasectomy

http://www.hhs.gov/opa/reproductive-hea ... index.html

Yes, sterilization costs money (although I think the US govt. and other nations should subsidize if possible this but not reversals) but having a child usually costs a lot more money.

Maybe both are luxuries but having a child is a bigger luxury. It is like comparing buying a bicycle vs. a sports car.

The only time it might be worth having a child if you are poor is if you are planning to sell or hire out the child as some people do. However, in the USA this is illegal so the child can't usually earn their keep and they cost the family money.

You are practically saying "They can't afford to be sterilized, and lack the means to get sterilized even if they had the money, but if they don't get sterilized, having a kid is their fault."

It. Does. Not. Work. Like. That.

As has been explained to you multiple times.

[Threayce]

Let's not be pompous here, it was clear from my post that what I meant was that they should be allowed to live in the US with no fear of deportation.

Easily misunderstood.

'Let them live without fear of deportation' would have been easier to understand. Four extra words make a big difference in the sentence.

If you misunderstood that, you lack basic reading comprehension skills.

I agree, if they have the right education, the right amount of money in the bank, can make the right size donation to the US govt., don't come from an evil nation (a list should be made of uncivilized, violent nations with large numbers of terrorist supporters-list is subject to change, no Latin American nation should be on this list as of now) and don't have a serious criminal background (I am fine with overlooking most crimes but murderers and real rapists might not make the best citizens) and fill out the proper paperwork than they can live without the fear of deportation.

I agree with you but just added a few simple stipulations.

So essentially, you are suggesting we extort people coming to the nation, profile entire nations of people, and use the same broken bureaucracy that keeps people backlogged in the system for decades?