Abortion and Capital Punishment

[Seitonjin]

Unfortunately this happens to be true.

I MIGHT be pro-life if this wasn't true.

I am pro life and I want this to be true.

But I am reluctantly pro-choice due to the stupid actions of other pro-lifers.

[Blasveck]

Beyond her own body into a fetus?
The fetus is within her body. That's the entire point.

So I guess I should be able to kill a child in my car because it is in my car following that logic.

Fetus does not equal child.

[Saint Jade IV]

The "women having sovereignty over their own body" argument often made by the pro choice camp is absurd...why should the sovereignty of a woman extend beyond her own body into a fetus and into the pocket of the man. She is essentially the arbiter of the entire child making process and for what reason?

Because the medical condition of pregnancy is suffered exclusively by women, and they have a right to decide how best to treat it.

[Sociobiology]

such as?



actually we can make egg cells (ova) from stomach lining cells.



so we should cut your donatable organs out against your will to help other people?



what does that have to do with it?
in both cases it is unwilling.
in both cases a dependent and a independent human are in conflict over the use of a organs.


I am pro abortion up until the delivery, and pro termination if the human is in a dependent state that if terminated will drastically improve the standard of living of the independent human.

1) Do you really need me to tell you why zygotes are more similar to fetuses than sperm/ova ? If so then wait till tomorrow as i don't have the time right now.

[/quote]
yes
because as a biologist I can say they are not definitively more similar to each other than a zygote is to germ cells.

2) I was not aware of that. See, things like these are what i request external links for so that i can read about it in detail.

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2012/10/03/science.1226889.DC1/Hayashi.SM.pdf

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn954-artificial-human-eggs-created.html#.Ugw-jZLVCSo

3) Trying to build something with straws ? lots and lots of it ?

it is exactly the same moral justification you are using to appropriate a woman's body.

4) Whether it is temporary or not fucking matters. It is 9-10 months, not a lifetime.

so I can enslave you as long as I let you go eventually?

Also if unwillingness is your problem, in the society that we do live in we don't get do do whatever we want. Consider this as something like that.

and that includes imposing our own desires on a woman's body.
or treating a ball of cells as more valuable or moral than an adult woman.

Also conflict of organs ? more like nutrition in this case.

when you learn about what pregnancy does to a body and what "sharing" and organ is we can finish this discussion.

False equivalency. Also the difference between temporary and permanent.

no I went into detail about why they are the same morally.
again is rape immoral because it is temporary?
is theft still not theft if the item is eventually returned.
You have reduced women to an incubator, you are ignoring their rights. Should I be able to abduct you off the street to act as a temporary lifesupport for a dying person without your consent? because that is what you are advocating, and claiming is moral because it is temporary.
We could save a lot of people if we ignore bodily rights.

[Tlaceceyaya]

Beyond her own body into a fetus?
The fetus is within her body. That's the entire point.

So I guess I should be able to kill a child in my car because it is in my car following that logic.

It's not in your body. If you don't want to care for the child, you can arrange so that you do not have to without killing it.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

The "women having sovereignty over their own body" argument often made by the pro choice camp is absurd...why should the sovereignty of a woman extend beyond her own body into a fetus and into the pocket of the man. She is essentially the arbiter of the entire child making process and for what reason?

Does a woman get the right to defend herself from being raped?
Also what are you even talking about?

[Solarys]

I said meaningfully distinguishable. As in, more than just a clump of cells which never had thoughts, emotions, experiences or relationships and was purely parasitic on a nonconsenting host.

And you are not factoring in its potential to grow up to be a human being with all those qualities only if it wasn't killed before it even gets a chance.

And if she consented to that when she consented to sex.

If you knew the risks and still proceed, you are accepting the risk as in consenting to the chance of pregnancy.

[The ivain isles]

The biological species concept was developed by Ernst Mayr, in 1942. Here it is, as first formulated, and quoted in Douglas J. Futuyma's EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY (1998): "Species are groups of actually or potentially interbreeding populations that are reproductively isolated from other such groups". The "reproductive isolation" can be genetic (non-fertility), geographic, or behavioral; there is NO criteria that says (as is commonly believed) that if two populations can interbreed they are the SAME species. There is NO criteria that says that two distinct species CAN'T interbreed. Consider the example of wolves, coyotes and dogs: three distinct species that can interbreed. In fact, all species of the genus Canis can mate and produce fertile offspring (Wayne et al., 1997, re: A. P. Gray, Mammalian Hybrids).

so yeah you're fucking wrong.

Ivain please address this.

Successfully interbreed to produce fertile offspring is the key, it makes no mention of that fact. A species isn't excluded if it can or cant interbreed, but if it can't produce fertile offspring. As, for example ligers, can't produce males, they can't pass on the XY chromosome, I would presume, ergo, can't produce complete, so to speak, fertile offspring.

[Neutraligon]

I MIGHT be pro-life if this wasn't true.

I am pro life and I want this to be true.

But I am reluctantly pro-choice due to the stupid actions of other pro-lifers.

I am personally pro-life, I am also pro-choice because my beliefs should not be forced on other people.

[Mavorpen]

And if she consented to that when she consented to sex.

No she didn't. I see you still don't understand consent.

[Tlaceceyaya]

I said meaningfully distinguishable. As in, more than just a clump of cells which never had thoughts, emotions, experiences or relationships and was purely parasitic on a nonconsenting host.

And you are not factoring in its potential to grow up to be a human being with all those qualities only if it wasn't killed before it even gets a chance.

And if she consented to that when she consented to sex.

If you knew the risks and still proceed, you are accepting the risk as in consenting to the chance of pregnancy.

Yes, I did. A sperm or egg also has that potential.
If you knew the risks and still proceed, you are accepting the risk as in consenting to the chance of being in a car crash.
Except, wait, the risk isn't usually all that high. A lot of abortions are due to birth control failing.

[New Stephensland]

The "women having sovereignty over their own body" argument often made by the pro choice camp is absurd...why should the sovereignty of a woman extend beyond her own body into a fetus and into the pocket of the man. She is essentially the arbiter of the entire child making process and for what reason?

Maybe because the fetus is living entirely off of her nutrients?

Also, I'm not quite certain what you mean by "pocket of the man". Could you clarify that?

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Unfortunately this happens to be true.

I MIGHT be pro-life if this wasn't true.

I'd still be pro-choice. It doesn't matter how many parents are lined up for adoption, I should not be enslaved to produce a child for them.

[Blakk Metal]

I have yet to read an actual response to my posts besides "I'm gonna pretend I couldn't understand your posts."

I haven't seen your posts.

What were they?

Here's two.

Then you should have refrained from having sex unless you are sure that it won't result in pregnancy or you should be willing to face the consequences.

Equating a fetus to cancer (better alternative to a rapist) is simply disgusting.

"Lethal injection is all well and great, however you're forgetting the part where that doesn't solve the issue of an execution for jaywalking being a cruel and unusual punishment, and the fact that just like how a man doesn't get the right to shoot a guy for banging his wife, neither does the government for jaywalking."

Then you should have refrained from jaywalking unless you are sure that it won't result in capture or you should be willing to face the consequences.

Equating the execution of a jaywalker to murder is simply disgusting.

Saying abortion is a great way of dealing with it is like saying killing your employees rapist is a great way of avoiding paying their wages STD complications. It is murder justified homicide, nothing less.

Also life is life, just because it isn't a person yet he inflicts mayhem and the risk of death doesn't mean that you should get to do whatever you want with it him. Like i said, accept the consequences or don't attempt risking it.

Corrected.

And do note that i am pro-abortion if pregnancy carries a serious health risk for the mother or something.

Pregnancy always 'carries a serious health risk for the mother or something' if the mother is a human. [Reference to this]

[Blasveck]

I MIGHT be pro-life if this wasn't true.

I'd still be pro-choice. It doesn't matter how many parents are lined up for adoption, I should not be enslaved to produce a child for them.

True.

We already have a bloated enough adoption system anyways

[The ivain isles]

Exactly my point. It's wrong. For the record I'm Canadian so I'm not up on your party politics. But no you're absolutely right and that was my exact point. If people want to be pro-life, then they have to be prepared to take care of the lives they just saved.

YES!

Marry me.

Exactly the point I made ten pages ago, and nobody replied too,

[Saint Jade IV]

I said meaningfully distinguishable. As in, more than just a clump of cells which never had thoughts, emotions, experiences or relationships and was purely parasitic on a nonconsenting host.

And you are not factoring in its potential to grow up to be a human being with all those qualities only if it wasn't killed before it even gets a chance.

Because it's not relevant. The child could be born without a brain and die in great pain.

And if she consented to that when she consented to sex.

If you knew the risks and still proceed, you are accepting the risk as in consenting to the chance of pregnancy.

You're absolutely right. Fortunately, there are many and varied options for a woman to treat pregnancy, one of which is abortion.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Ivain please address this.

Successfully interbreed to produce fertile offspring is the key, it makes no mention of that fact. A species isn't excluded if it can or cant interbreed, but if it can't produce fertile offspring. As, for example ligers, can't produce males, they can't pass on the XY chromosome, I would presume, ergo, can't produce complete, so to speak, fertile offspring.

So you totally ignored the part about how any species in the genus Canis can produce fertile offspring with one another, which completely dismantles your entire argument?

[North Franklin]

And you are not factoring in its potential to grow up to be a human being with all those qualities only if it wasn't killed before it even gets a chance.

By this logic every second you're not actively trying to reproduce would be preventing a "potential" human

[Seitonjin]

I MIGHT be pro-life if this wasn't true.

I'd still be pro-choice. It doesn't matter how many parents are lined up for adoption, I should not be enslaved to produce a child for them.

Is there a way to balance the two views? Yes.

Legalize abortion with guidelines (guidelines as in when to abort, where, and other services catering to the woman) and shut the pro-lifers that choose to infringe personal rights up.

[The ivain isles]

I haven't seen your posts.

What were they?

Here's two.

"Lethal injection is all well and great, however you're forgetting the part where that doesn't solve the issue of an execution for jaywalking being a cruel and unusual punishment, and the fact that just like how a man doesn't get the right to shoot a guy for banging his wife, neither does the government for jaywalking."

Then you should have refrained from jaywalking unless you are sure that it won't result in capture or you should be willing to face the consequences.

Equating the execution of a jaywalker to murder is simply disgusting.

Corrected.

Pregnancy always 'carries a serious health risk for the mother or something' if the mother is a human. [Reference to this]

In the developing world, as in Ireland, for example, it's 6 deaths for every 100000 births, your more likely to die in a car accident than from giving birth.

[Neutraligon]

And you are not factoring in its potential to grow up to be a human being with all those qualities only if it wasn't killed before it even gets a chance.

Because it's not relevant. The child could be born without a brain and die in great pain.

And if she consented to that when she consented to sex.

If you knew the risks and still proceed, you are accepting the risk as in consenting to the chance of pregnancy.

You're absolutely right. Fortunately, there are many and varied options for a woman to treat pregnancy, one of which is abortion.

I wish we had the ability to induce abortion*without drugs) or to control implantation. That would be nice.

[Seitonjin]

I'd still be pro-choice. It doesn't matter how many parents are lined up for adoption, I should not be enslaved to produce a child for them.

True.

We already have a bloated enough adoption system anyways

What they need is the childcare and family care services for single mothers that might have gotten an abortion to protect and help the mother.

[Blasveck]

I'd still be pro-choice. It doesn't matter how many parents are lined up for adoption, I should not be enslaved to produce a child for them.

Is there a way to balance the two views? Yes.

Legalize abortion with guidelines (guidelines as in when to abort, where, and other services catering to the woman) and shut the pro-lifers that choose to infringe personal rights up.

The pro-lifers are ones who want to restrict abortions beyond what you said, and possibly ban them.
Neither of them get the results that the pro-lifers are hoping for.

Just look at the recent Texas abortion bill a few wells ago.

[Neutraligon]

Here's two.

In the developing world, as in Ireland, for example, it's 6 deaths for every 100000 births, your more likely to die in a car accident than from giving birth.

You consider Ireland the developing nation?