Abortion and Capital Punishment

[Mavorpen]

I forgot your definition of successfully is different than mine.

Are female ligers fertile or not?

[Tlaceceyaya]

No child is being put in harms way, so this is about as useless a post as picspam.

because everybody loves being dead. Or nonlife.

A child which has never been born is not meaningfully distinguishable from a child which was never conceived to begin with.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

because everybody loves being dead. Or nonlife.

A child which has never been born is not meaningfully distinguishable from a child which was never conceived to begin with.

2Hard 2understand.

[The ivain isles]

I forgot your definition of successfully is different than mine.

Are female ligers fertile or not?

It doesn't change the fact the males don't.

[New Stephensland]

This is my favorite post in all of the abortion threads.

And if the mother puts her child in harms way, the courts can intervene and act in loco parentis.

True. And then the entire debate returns to whether or not the fetus is a human being. We must first conclusively and scientifically conclude that it is before we can raise the question of consent.

[Mavorpen]

Are female ligers fertile or not?

It doesn't change the fact the males don't.

Cool, so your definition is wrong. Glad you agree.

[Solarys]

because everybody loves being dead. Or nonlife.

A child which has never been born is not meaningfully distinguishable from a child which was never conceived to begin with.

Yes it is. Unless things like embryo/fetus exists only as a figment of imagination.

[Blasveck]

I am Pro-life, just going to say that straight up. But a HUGE point that all of us Pro-Lifers miss is the fact that pro-life doesn't stop after you've saved a fetus/baby. People (and particularly in churches) are far to eager to condemn pro-choice abortion laws and abortion clinics, and then drop the issue. YOU CAN'T STOP THERE. Okay yeah, you saved a life, a baby is now going to grow up and be a child, but in what way? What about that mother who wasn't prepared to have a child and wanted an abortion? Get off you butt, put down your sign now that you've got your way, and help out that mother that you just told to keep her baby rather than abort it. You can't just force her to have her baby and then leave her to her own devices. Why do you think she wanted an abortion in the first place? If you really care about that baby's life that you just saved, then you will support that mother and that child past the abortion law. Otherwise the whole thing was meaningless. Unprepared mothers aren't going to fare too well without the help of some loving and caring people (which is what churches are ultimately called to be). So if you don't want to see legalized abortions, then be prepared to help out all of those single moms who are going to be blessed with a child that you just fought to save. Being pro-life is more than being anti-abortion.

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/current ... i-abortion

Too bad for you that (most) people who are pro-life are people who don't want to help in the first place.

Take the Republican Party.

Pro-life, but after that kid is born, the party is like "Fuck you, got mine"

No welfare, no food stamps, no public education, no support for the mother. They don't care about the life of that child until they reach military age. And the they send that kid to a needless war so they can die.

You'll have a but of trouble finding people who care after the kid is born.

[The ivain isles]

It doesn't change the fact the males don't.

Cool, so your definition is wrong. Glad you agree.

Yes I agree, are you happy now?

[The Crimson Horde Khanate]

Both are disgusting if used improperly.

For example, Abortion can only be justified as a non-aggressive act if it is rape. Even consensual inbreeding is still consensual in making a child through voluntary sex.

Capital punishment should not be used all the time. Only if it is so bad that the person's life is a threat to the life of others at all times. Otherwise, taking a life is neither punishment nor justice. Justice would serve the affected, and punishment would have to be noticable. Death doesn't allow the punished to actually use their punishment and try to fix things to the best of their ability.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Considering I only conceded the point to move along the debate, and the fact my definition was sound, as ligers rarely successfully interbreed to produce fertile offspring, and when they do, they can't carry on a lineage, I couldn't care less, and as you seem to consider no forms of your own, resort purely to pathos, and Fox News tactics of taking a post and cutting out two thirds of it, I stopped believing anything you said five pages ago.

The biological species concept was developed by Ernst Mayr, in 1942. Here it is, as first formulated, and quoted in Douglas J. Futuyma's EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY (1998): "Species are groups of actually or potentially interbreeding populations that are reproductively isolated from other such groups". The "reproductive isolation" can be genetic (non-fertility), geographic, or behavioral; there is NO criteria that says (as is commonly believed) that if two populations can interbreed they are the SAME species. There is NO criteria that says that two distinct species CAN'T interbreed. Consider the example of wolves, coyotes and dogs: three distinct species that can interbreed. In fact, all species of the genus Canis can mate and produce fertile offspring (Wayne et al., 1997, re: A. P. Gray, Mammalian Hybrids).

so yeah you're fucking wrong.

Ivain please address this.

[Tlaceceyaya]

A child which has never been born is not meaningfully distinguishable from a child which was never conceived to begin with.

Yes it is. Unless things like embryo/fetus exists only as a figment of imagination.

I said meaningfully distinguishable. As in, more than just a clump of cells which never had thoughts, emotions, experiences or relationships and was purely parasitic on a nonconsenting host.

[Seitonjin]

I am Pro-life, just going to say that straight up. But a HUGE point that all of us Pro-Lifers miss is the fact that pro-life doesn't stop after you've saved a fetus/baby. People (and particularly in churches) are far to eager to condemn pro-choice abortion laws and abortion clinics, and then drop the issue. YOU CAN'T STOP THERE. Okay yeah, you saved a life, a baby is now going to grow up and be a child, but in what way? What about that mother who wasn't prepared to have a child and wanted an abortion? Get off you butt, put down your sign now that you've got your way, and help out that mother that you just told to keep her baby rather than abort it. You can't just force her to have her baby and then leave her to her own devices. Why do you think she wanted an abortion in the first place? If you really care about that baby's life that you just saved, then you will support that mother and that child past the abortion law. Otherwise the whole thing was meaningless. Unprepared mothers aren't going to fare too well without the help of some loving and caring people (which is what churches are ultimately called to be). So if you don't want to see legalized abortions, then be prepared to help out all of those single moms who are going to be blessed with a child that you just fought to save. Being pro-life is more than being anti-abortion.

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/current ... i-abortion

Sums up my views nicely too.

I am Pro-life, just going to say that straight up. But a HUGE point that all of us Pro-Lifers miss is the fact that pro-life doesn't stop after you've saved a fetus/baby. People (and particularly in churches) are far to eager to condemn pro-choice abortion laws and abortion clinics, and then drop the issue. YOU CAN'T STOP THERE. Okay yeah, you saved a life, a baby is now going to grow up and be a child, but in what way? What about that mother who wasn't prepared to have a child and wanted an abortion? Get off you butt, put down your sign now that you've got your way, and help out that mother that you just told to keep her baby rather than abort it. You can't just force her to have her baby and then leave her to her own devices. Why do you think she wanted an abortion in the first place? If you really care about that baby's life that you just saved, then you will support that mother and that child past the abortion law. Otherwise the whole thing was meaningless. Unprepared mothers aren't going to fare too well without the help of some loving and caring people (which is what churches are ultimately called to be). So if you don't want to see legalized abortions, then be prepared to help out all of those single moms who are going to be blessed with a child that you just fought to save. Being pro-life is more than being anti-abortion.

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/current ... i-abortion

Too bad for you that (most) people who are pro-life are people who don't want to help in the first place.

Take the Republican Party.

Pro-life, but after that kid is born, the party is like "Fuck you, got mine"

No welfare, no food stamps, no public education, no support for the mother. They don't care about the life of that child until they reach military age. And the they send that kid to a needless war so they can die.

You'll have a but of trouble finding people who care after the kid is born.

The Republicans fail. A lot.

[The Crimson Horde Khanate]

I am Pro-life, just going to say that straight up. But a HUGE point that all of us Pro-Lifers miss is the fact that pro-life doesn't stop after you've saved a fetus/baby. People (and particularly in churches) are far to eager to condemn pro-choice abortion laws and abortion clinics, and then drop the issue. YOU CAN'T STOP THERE. Okay yeah, you saved a life, a baby is now going to grow up and be a child, but in what way? What about that mother who wasn't prepared to have a child and wanted an abortion? Get off you butt, put down your sign now that you've got your way, and help out that mother that you just told to keep her baby rather than abort it. You can't just force her to have her baby and then leave her to her own devices. Why do you think she wanted an abortion in the first place? If you really care about that baby's life that you just saved, then you will support that mother and that child past the abortion law. Otherwise the whole thing was meaningless. Unprepared mothers aren't going to fare too well without the help of some loving and caring people (which is what churches are ultimately called to be). So if you don't want to see legalized abortions, then be prepared to help out all of those single moms who are going to be blessed with a child that you just fought to save. Being pro-life is more than being anti-abortion.

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/current ... i-abortion

Too bad for you that (most) people who are pro-life are people who don't want to help in the first place.

Take the Republican Party.

Pro-life, but after that kid is born, the party is like "Fuck you, got mine"

No welfare, no food stamps, no public education, no support for the mother. They don't care about the life of that child until they reach military age. And the they send that kid to a needless war so they can die.

You'll have a but of trouble finding people who care after the kid is born.

Typical of Republicans to do so. They only oppose Abortion because they like to force religion onto others. Disgusting.

[Blasveck]

Both are disgusting if used improperly.

For example, Abortion can only be justified as a non-aggressive act if it is rape. Even consensual inbreeding is still consensual in making a child through voluntary sex.

Capital punishment should not be used all the time. Only if it is so bad that the person's life is a threat to the life of others at all times. Otherwise, taking a life is neither punishment nor justice. Justice would serve the affected, and punishment would have to be noticable. Death doesn't allow the punished to actually use their punishment and try to fix things to the best of their ability.

Consent to sex is not consent to pregnancy. We've established this before.

I mea, unless consent to cooking is consent to fire.

[Arcadiana]

The "women having sovereignty over their own body" argument often made by the pro choice camp is absurd...why should the sovereignty of a woman extend beyond her own body into a fetus and into the pocket of the man. She is essentially the arbiter of the entire child making process and for what reason?

[Solarys]

Too bad for you that (most) people who are pro-life are people who don't want to help in the first place.

Take the Republican Party.

Pro-life, but after that kid is born, the party is like "Fuck you, got mine"

No welfare, no food stamps, no public education, no support for the mother. They don't care about the life of that child until they reach military age. And the they send that kid to a needless war so they can die.

You'll have a but of trouble finding people who care after the kid is born.

Unfortunately this happens to be true.

[Sorisati]

I am Pro-life, just going to say that straight up. But a HUGE point that all of us Pro-Lifers miss is the fact that pro-life doesn't stop after you've saved a fetus/baby. People (and particularly in churches) are far to eager to condemn pro-choice abortion laws and abortion clinics, and then drop the issue. YOU CAN'T STOP THERE. Okay yeah, you saved a life, a baby is now going to grow up and be a child, but in what way? What about that mother who wasn't prepared to have a child and wanted an abortion? Get off you butt, put down your sign now that you've got your way, and help out that mother that you just told to keep her baby rather than abort it. You can't just force her to have her baby and then leave her to her own devices. Why do you think she wanted an abortion in the first place? If you really care about that baby's life that you just saved, then you will support that mother and that child past the abortion law. Otherwise the whole thing was meaningless. Unprepared mothers aren't going to fare too well without the help of some loving and caring people (which is what churches are ultimately called to be). So if you don't want to see legalized abortions, then be prepared to help out all of those single moms who are going to be blessed with a child that you just fought to save. Being pro-life is more than being anti-abortion.

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/current ... i-abortion

Too bad for you that (most) people who are pro-life are people who don't want to help in the first place.

Take the Republican Party.

Pro-life, but after that kid is born, the party is like "Fuck you, got mine"

No welfare, no food stamps, no public education, no support for the mother. They don't care about the life of that child until they reach military age. And the they send that kid to a needless war so they can die.

You'll have a but of trouble finding people who care after the kid is born.

Exactly my point. It's wrong. For the record I'm Canadian so I'm not up on your party politics. But no you're absolutely right and that was my exact point. If people want to be pro-life, then they have to be prepared to take care of the lives they just saved. Otherwise they shouldn't be talking.

[Seitonjin]

Too bad for you that (most) people who are pro-life are people who don't want to help in the first place.

Take the Republican Party.

Pro-life, but after that kid is born, the party is like "Fuck you, got mine"

No welfare, no food stamps, no public education, no support for the mother. They don't care about the life of that child until they reach military age. And the they send that kid to a needless war so they can die.

You'll have a but of trouble finding people who care after the kid is born.

Exactly my point. It's wrong. For the record I'm Canadian so I'm not up on your party politics. But no you're absolutely right and that was my exact point. If people want to be pro-life, then they have to be prepared to take care of the lives they just saved.

YES!

Marry me.

[Tlaceceyaya]

The "women having sovereignty over their own body" argument often made by the pro choice camp is absurd...why should the sovereignty of a woman extend beyond her own body into a fetus and into the pocket of the man. She is essentially the arbiter of the entire child making process and for what reason?

Beyond her own body into a fetus?
The fetus is within her body. That's the entire point.

[Arcadiana]

I am Pro-life, just going to say that straight up. But a HUGE point that all of us Pro-Lifers miss is the fact that pro-life doesn't stop after you've saved a fetus/baby. People (and particularly in churches) are far to eager to condemn pro-choice abortion laws and abortion clinics, and then drop the issue. YOU CAN'T STOP THERE. Okay yeah, you saved a life, a baby is now going to grow up and be a child, but in what way? What about that mother who wasn't prepared to have a child and wanted an abortion? Get off you butt, put down your sign now that you've got your way, and help out that mother that you just told to keep her baby rather than abort it. You can't just force her to have her baby and then leave her to her own devices. Why do you think she wanted an abortion in the first place? If you really care about that baby's life that you just saved, then you will support that mother and that child past the abortion law. Otherwise the whole thing was meaningless. Unprepared mothers aren't going to fare too well without the help of some loving and caring people (which is what churches are ultimately called to be). So if you don't want to see legalized abortions, then be prepared to help out all of those single moms who are going to be blessed with a child that you just fought to save. Being pro-life is more than being anti-abortion.

http://www.relevantmagazine.com/current ... i-abortion

also this

[Blasveck]

Too bad for you that (most) people who are pro-life are people who don't want to help in the first place.

Take the Republican Party.

Pro-life, but after that kid is born, the party is like "Fuck you, got mine"

No welfare, no food stamps, no public education, no support for the mother. They don't care about the life of that child until they reach military age. And the they send that kid to a needless war so they can die.

You'll have a but of trouble finding people who care after the kid is born.

Unfortunately this happens to be true.

I MIGHT be pro-life if this wasn't true.

[Blakk Metal]

I have yet to read an actual response to my posts besides "I'm gonna pretend I couldn't understand your posts."

[Arcadiana]

The "women having sovereignty over their own body" argument often made by the pro choice camp is absurd...why should the sovereignty of a woman extend beyond her own body into a fetus and into the pocket of the man. She is essentially the arbiter of the entire child making process and for what reason?

Beyond her own body into a fetus?
The fetus is within her body. That's the entire point.

So I guess I should be able to kill a child in my car because it is in my car following that logic.

[Blasveck]

I have yet to read an actual response to my posts besides "I'm gonna pretend I couldn't understand your posts."

I haven't seen your posts.

What were they?