Orbital Weapons

[Alien Space Bats]

We could do one shuttle launch and we'd would have had a satellite that could theoretically shoot down the entirety of the USSR's land based arsenal.

And what do you imagine the U.S.S.R. would have done if we'd tried to bring such a system on line?

"Oh, they'd have done nothing at all, 'cause we're the Good Guys™"

<pause>

So, reverse that: What would we have done if the Soviets had tried to bring such a system on line?

"Oh, we'd have nuked their asses off in a preemptive strike, because the minute they were missile-proof, you know that's what they'd do to us."

<pause>

None of you lived through virtually the entire Cold War. Back then, building any kind of an effective missile shield would have been seen as tantamount to an act of war.

---

A far more interesting aspect of the Outer Space Treaty is that nations can't claim celestial objects (even in part). This creates some interesting legalities around potential lunar or Martian settlements: Presumably, the nation establishing such a settlement would appoint someone as its "commanding officer" (presumably, the same way a ship's captain or the pilot of an airplane is in charge while that craft is in or over international waters), and that person would be "in charge" of the settlement. From there, "local" criminal and civil law would depend on the settlement's "flag". The treaty makes no allowance for anything remotely resembling local self-government, which is probably how it's going to come to an end someday.

Back when Alessandro Bassi briefly ran Lunar Wars (2007-2009), I pondered how lunar colonies might actually operate as "political" entities under the 1967 treaty. What I imagined was that the various colonies represented in the game were busily mining and selling the raw materials needed to build new O'Neill habitats at L4 and L5; these rotating human colonies would probably be "flagged" under the authority of some Terrestrial government or another, and would likely have one or more local "territorial" courts operating under their law (I mean, is there any reason why a U.S. judge couldn't hold court on a ship at sea or on a plane?). From there, I figured that someone had filed a personal or corporate claim to the use of a particular patch of lunar soil with one or another of those courts on one or another of the many habitats under construction; the mining outpost located at the claim site would then be "flagged" to match the claim, and local "law" would simply "follow the flag".

Of course, in the rough-and-tumble world of late 21st Century corporate wars, much of this would be a façade: There would be governments like the Cayman Islands making money by allowing you to essentially use their flag to establish a "territorial" court that would pretty much live in your pocket and do whatever you wanted. This would probably result in L4- and L5-based "court corporations" that would then be operating more or less as free agents, taking claims and issuing certificates "flagging" your settlement accordingly. The "wars" part of Lunar Wars, I figured, was all about claim jumping: You'd move in with muscle, drive the other guy off a rich spot of lunar turf, and then file suit in your favorite court, seeking to have the other guys' claim thrown out and yours accepted as "legal" in its place; possession of the ground would allow you to scour the lunar terrain for "markers" intended to establish rival claims while planting your own. Of course, the other side would be counter-suing you in their preferred courts in order to buy the time needed to drive you off the claim, and everyone would be filing motions to see where the case finally ended up, all as the fighting on the Moon took on the flavor of a game of musical chairs, with the winner being the one who could hold the claim at the time "legal discovery" verified its validity.

<smile>

The point is, developing outer spaces is going to be great fun under the current treaty arrangements, because nothing in the 1967 accord prevents private exploitation; what the treaty does prevent are state claims to extraterrestrial territory — and that includes claims by "new" extraterrestrial "nations" that might try declaring themselves independent of the Earth.

ADDENDUM: I've also imagined something similar happening on the ocean bottom beyond the current territorial limits, should truly deep-water extraction operations ever become a reality. Corporate submarine wars could be every bit as fun as wars on the Moon...

[Indira]

Doubt anyone would seriously think of building one to strike targets on Earth. The cost of building and maintaining such devices are, as far as I can tell, prohibitive.

[The Corparation]

We could do one shuttle launch and we'd would have had a satellite that could theoretically shoot down the entirety of the USSR's land based arsenal.

And what do you imagine the U.S.S.R. would have done if we'd tried to bring such a system on line?

"Oh, they'd have done nothing at all, 'cause we're the Good Guys™"

<pause>

So, reverse that: What would we have done if the Soviets had tried to bring such a system on line?

"Oh, we'd have nuked their asses off in a preemptive strike, because the minute they were missile-proof, you know that's what they'd do to us."

<pause>

None of you lived through virtually the entire Cold War. Back then, building any kind of an effective missile shield would have been seen as tantamount to an act of war.

---

1) Presumably the Russians would of strengthened their existing ABM systems even more. In fact they did a large surge into sattilite based defesnes when they saw the SDI and even launched a prototype satellite. (The sattilite failed to reach orbit due to a faliure in the rockets guidance though) Russia also has invested a lot into putting ABM countermeasures on their missiles. In addition ABM Systems aren't 100% Effective, that's why each side has so many ICBMS, to make sure that enough get through to their targets. The system I mentioned would of been a serious blow to their strength if they'd attacked, but they'd still have their bombers and missile subs. Plus the satellite I mentioned was a one shot deal. They could simply hold some in reserve. In addition ABM systems don't provide 100% Coverage, no matter what you do you're going to have some important spots that just don't have the same level of protection as other areas.
2) What would the US do If the Russians brought an ABM system online? Well since Russia has had a pretty decent ABM System around Moscow since the early 70s, I think its safe to say the US kept building more missiles, and invested in ways to break through.
3)See above. Russia built an effective ABM system around Moscow: Please tell me again how putting ABM systems up starts a war when its been shown that isn't the case.

[Dooom35796821595]

What do YOU think?
And the world says no.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

because no nation would dare contrevene internatinal law...

The only reason that treaty has held this long is because ICBM's are cheaper, easier to maintain, easier to defend and can be hidden in silos, on submarines, on warships ect.

the real threat is laser defense technology making ICBM's less effective, hence Orbital weapons.

I myself am fully behind this and airbourne aircraft carriers. and lasers.

[Samozaryadnyastan]

What do YOU think?
And the world says no.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty

because no nation would dare contrevene internatinal law...

The only reason that treaty has held this long is because ICBM's are cheaper, easier to maintain, easier to defend and can be hidden in silos, on submarines, on warships ect.

the real threat is laser defense technology making ICBM's less effective, hence Orbital weapons.

I myself am fully behind this and airbourne aircraft carriers. and lasers.

Except, that's wholly wrong.
Even in the event of a laser defence system, regular ICBMs will still hold every advantage.

[Alien Space Bats]

Russia built an effective ABM system around Moscow: Please tell me again how putting ABM systems up starts a war when its been shown that isn't the case.

Because Russia's ABM system was never that effective, and we could always inflict unacceptable damage on them by hitting every place else.

In contrast, you've spoken of a U.S. system that's impenetrable, and protects the entire country; that's a hugely different thing.

Beyond that, the U.S.S.R.'s bomber force always sucked, and their subs are noisy. ICBM's mean a lot more to Russia, and always have.

[The Corparation]

Russia built an effective ABM system around Moscow: Please tell me again how putting ABM systems up starts a war when its been shown that isn't the case.

Because Russia's ABM system was never that effective, and we could always inflict unacceptable damage on them by hitting every place else.

In contrast, you've spoken of a U.S. system that's impenetrable, and protects the entire country; that's a hugely different thing.

Beyond that, the U.S.S.R.'s bomber force always sucked, and their subs are noisy. ICBM's mean a lot more to Russia, and always have.

The ABM system I talked about would of only countered land based missiles during an initial strike. Its doubtful it would of worked 100% as well. In addition later waves of land l Sub launched missiles would still of been effective. Throwing up an effective ABM system does not somehow make war more likely, it makes it less likely as the other side is less likely to attack for fear of not being able to get enough through before they can counter. And neither the US or Russia wanted to be the ones to launch first. Plus an ABM system does jackshit against conventional attacks, which almost any war between NATO and Russia would entail. No SDI weapon proposed had the ability to stop the Russian land forces from trying to steamroll tanks through the Fulda Gap.




Also since I'm too lazy to make thread and it kinda fits here:
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/hyper ... te-or.html

Debris from China's anti-satellite weapon test has struck a Russian satellite. This is startying to become a real issue, we need a ban on live ASAT weapon tests in orbit. Its crowded up there and the tests are making things worse. China especially has caused trouble.

[The Grand Imperium of Man]

I think it's dead?