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UNION STATES vs RIGHT TO WORK STATES

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Kengburg
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UNION STATES vs RIGHT TO WORK STATES

Postby Kengburg » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:48 pm

UNION STATES vs RIGHT TO WORK STATES
RTW: 22 STATES vs UNION: 28 STATES

This is a compilement of facts I have gathered, you decide and add your own facts to the pool. The ultimate duel between Unions and RTW states shall be decided PROVEN FACTS ONLY. Are forced Union states fair to workers? Do unions really care about workers? Do teachers unions benefit students? Have Unions served their purpose already? Are companies hijacked by unions (Hostess)? And many more questions can be asked and discussed here.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welfare States: States that pay less than they get from the government
Forced Union Welfare States- Ohio, Indiana, Maryland, Philidelphia, Vermont, Maine, Montana, New Mexico, West Virginia, Kentucky, Missouri, Alaska, Hawaii- 14 STATES
Right to Work Welfare States- Georgia, Alabama, Mississipi, Louisiana, Arizona, Utah, Idaho, Wyoming, North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Iowa, Kansas, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Tenesee, South Carolina, North Carolina, Virginia- 19 STATES

Unemployment Rate: The percent of people unemployed
National Average: 7.7%
Forced Union States Above Average:
Rhode Island: 10.4%
California: 9.8%
New Jersey: 9.6%
Michigan: 8.9% (I did not list Michigan as a RTW state because the reforms were only enacted a month ago)
Conneticut: 8.8%
Illinois: 8.7%
Washington DC: 8.4%
Oregon: 8.4%
New York: 8.3%
Kentucky: 8.2%
Indiana: 8%
Pensyllvania: 7.8%
STATES: 12

RTW States Above Average:
Nevada: 10.8%
North Carolina: 9.1%
Georgia: 8.5%
Mississipi: 8.5%
Florida: 8.1%
Arizona: 7.8%
STATES: 6

GDP: Amount of Money a state makes:
Union States above average GDP:
California: 1.9 Trillion Dollars
New York: 1.1 Trillion Dollars
Illinois: 644 Billion Dollars
Pensyllvania: 575 Billion Dollars
New Jersey: 497 Billion Dollars
Ohio: 483 Billion Dollars
Massachuttsets: 377 Billion Dollars
Michigan: 372 Billion Dollars (I did not put this under RTW since the reforms only took place 2mo ago)
Washington: 351,000 Billion Dollars
Maryland: 300 Billion Dollars
Indiana: 267 Billion Dollars
Minnesota: 267 Billion Dollars
Colorado: 259 Billion Dollars
Wisconsin: 251 Billion Dollars
Conneticut: 233 Billion Dollars
STATES: 15

RTW States above average GDP:
Texas: 1.3 Trillion Dollars
Florida: 754 Billion Dollars
Virginia: 427 Billion Dollars
North Carolina: 407 Billion Dollars
Georgia: 403 Billion Dollars
Arizona: 261 Billion Dollars
Tennesee: 250 Billion Dollars
Missouri: 246 Billion Dollars
Louisiana: 213 Billion Dollars
Alabama: 174 Billion Dollars
STATES: 10



B-A+ Small Business Rating: States that have been rated highly by small business owners on surveys by the Kaufman foundation
Union States:
New Hampshire: A
Oregon: A-
Indiana: B+
Colorado: B+
Montana: B
Washington: B-
Minnesota: B-
STATES: 7

RTW States:
Arkansas: A+
Oklahoma: A+
Utah: A+
Idaho: A+
Texas: A
Louisiana: A
Georgia: A
South Carolina: A-
Virginia: A-
Kansas: A-
Alabama: B+
Nebraska: B+
Nevada: B
Tenessee: B
Arizona: B-
STATES: 15
Last edited by Kengburg on Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:50 pm

I have no problem with unions. I have a problem when you try to force workers into unions or when you try to prevent them from joining/forming one. Let the laborer decide.

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:50 pm

That's not how an Opening Post works. You need to give us topics to discuss and your opinion. Otherwise, get a blog.
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Nationalist Eminral Republic
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Postby Nationalist Eminral Republic » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:54 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:I have no problem with unions. I have a problem when you try to force workers into unions or when you try to prevent them from joining/forming one. Let the laborer decide.

Agree, without unions you may be working for $ 1- 2.50 per hour
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Nidaria
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Postby Nidaria » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:55 pm

Nationalist Eminral Republic wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote:I have no problem with unions. I have a problem when you try to force workers into unions or when you try to prevent them from joining/forming one. Let the laborer decide.

Agree, without unions you may be working for $ 1- 2.50 per hour

I believe there is this thing called minimum wage.
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Nationalist Eminral Republic
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Postby Nationalist Eminral Republic » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:56 pm

Nidaria wrote:
Nationalist Eminral Republic wrote:Agree, without unions you may be working for $ 1- 2.50 per hour

I believe there is this thing called minimum wage.

Even if there is, they can still be abused.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:56 pm

Nidaria wrote:
Nationalist Eminral Republic wrote:Agree, without unions you may be working for $ 1- 2.50 per hour

I believe there is this thing called minimum wage.

Now, sure.
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Also, bonobos.
<Sigh> NSG... where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
My favorite anarcho-capitalist quote: "Im Bendira, ancap troll, nice to meet you"
Two novels can change a bookish 14-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers

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Silent Majority
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Postby Silent Majority » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:57 pm

Nidaria wrote:
Nationalist Eminral Republic wrote:Agree, without unions you may be working for $ 1- 2.50 per hour

I believe there is this thing called minimum wage.


Ever tried living on it before?
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Sdaeriji
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Postby Sdaeriji » Sat Dec 22, 2012 6:58 pm

Nidaria wrote:
Nationalist Eminral Republic wrote:Agree, without unions you may be working for $ 1- 2.50 per hour

I believe there is this thing called minimum wage.


One of the greatest victories of unionization in the United States, to be sure.
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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:00 pm

Nationalist Eminral Republic wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote:I have no problem with unions. I have a problem when you try to force workers into unions or when you try to prevent them from joining/forming one. Let the laborer decide.

Agree, without unions you may be working for $ 1- 2.50 per hour


Absolutely. Unions have done good and as long as you can voluntarily join them or choose to not be a member, I'm OK. I do have a problem though when certain states mandate it.

That said, it's also good business to pay your workers better and to treat them better, even without the influence of government or unions. Ford most certainly did. The happier your workers are, the better they will work to make your shit.

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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:00 pm

Kengburg wrote: Are companies hijacked by unions (Hostess)?

Unions didn't kill Hostess.

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Sdaeriji
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Postby Sdaeriji » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:03 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:
Kengburg wrote: Are companies hijacked by unions (Hostess)?

Unions didn't kill Hostess.


Do you mean to tell me that a company who exclusively produces and sells products in excess of 500 calories per serving in a country facing an obesity epidemic had problems with their business model beyond the fact that they were unionized?
Lacadaemon wrote:From a fraternal perspective, your fascinating introduction to debate lacks the sort of fire, or dare I say temperature, which would render it incendiary. Perhaps then, indeed, it could be described as the opposite of the necessary conditions which create the conflagration you so desire.

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Libertarian California
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Postby Libertarian California » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:04 pm

I thought this was an IC thread for a second, where a new civil war between the Union States and Right to Work States erupts.
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Libertarian California
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Postby Libertarian California » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:04 pm

Sdaeriji wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:Unions didn't kill Hostess.


Do you mean to tell me that a company who exclusively produces and sells products in excess of 500 calories per serving in a country facing an obesity epidemic had problems with their business model beyond the fact that they were unionized?


It doesn't matter if their food was unhealthy. Nobody was stopping people from buying their products.
Alternative Rightist. Jeffersonian. Theodore Roosevelt-style Progressive. Libertarian. Nationalist. Atheist. Conservationist. Environmentalist.
Everyone should watch this video
American nationalist
I am the infamous North California (DEATed 11/13/12). Now in the NS "Hall of Fame", or whatever
(Add 2137 posts)
Let's go Oakland! (please move to San Jose)
Let's go Sharks!
On the American Revolution

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Nationalist Eminral Republic
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Postby Nationalist Eminral Republic » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:05 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:
Nationalist Eminral Republic wrote:Agree, without unions you may be working for $ 1- 2.50 per hour


Absolutely. Unions have done good and as long as you can voluntarily join them or choose to not be a member, I'm OK. I do have a problem though when certain states mandate it.

That said, it's also good business to pay your workers better and to treat them better, even without the influence of government or unions. Ford most certainly did. The happier your workers are, the better they will work to make your shit.

Exactly, ever wonder why chinese products are low quality? they are paid $ 3.00 maximum per hour.
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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:05 pm

Sdaeriji wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:Unions didn't kill Hostess.


Do you mean to tell me that a company who exclusively produces and sells products in excess of 500 calories per serving in a country facing an obesity epidemic had problems with their business model beyond the fact that they were unionized?

And kept taking executive bonuses, raiding employee paid pensions that they then declared bankruptcy to avoid repaying, and asked for salary cuts that amounted to half their wages...madness.

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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:06 pm

Libertarian California wrote:
Sdaeriji wrote:
Do you mean to tell me that a company who exclusively produces and sells products in excess of 500 calories per serving in a country facing an obesity epidemic had problems with their business model beyond the fact that they were unionized?


It doesn't matter if their food was unhealthy. Nobody was stopping people from buying their products.

Except themselves.

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Sdaeriji
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Postby Sdaeriji » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:10 pm

Libertarian California wrote:
Sdaeriji wrote:
Do you mean to tell me that a company who exclusively produces and sells products in excess of 500 calories per serving in a country facing an obesity epidemic had problems with their business model beyond the fact that they were unionized?


It doesn't matter if their food was unhealthy. Nobody was stopping people from buying their products.


That's rather the point. Nobody was stopping people from buying their products, except the people who were no longer buying their products. Somehow that is the union's fault.
Lacadaemon wrote:From a fraternal perspective, your fascinating introduction to debate lacks the sort of fire, or dare I say temperature, which would render it incendiary. Perhaps then, indeed, it could be described as the opposite of the necessary conditions which create the conflagration you so desire.

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Kengburg
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Postby Kengburg » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:12 pm

Sdaeriji wrote:
Libertarian California wrote:
It doesn't matter if their food was unhealthy. Nobody was stopping people from buying their products.


That's rather the point. Nobody was stopping people from buying their products, except the people who were no longer buying their products. Somehow that is the union's fault.

Actually Hostess went bankrupt because no one was working, not because they were not selling, they could have stayed open.
The average employee made 43,000 a year
Last edited by Kengburg on Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:12 pm

Kengburg wrote:
Sdaeriji wrote:
That's rather the point. Nobody was stopping people from buying their products, except the people who were no longer buying their products. Somehow that is the union's fault.

Actually Hostess went bankrupt because no one was working, not because they were not selling, they could have stayed open.

And kept handing out bonuses of 80% of their salary to management. Sure.
In support of Arch
The real question is how can you be a man and not be a feminist? ~ Neo Art
Also, bonobos.
<Sigh> NSG... where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
My favorite anarcho-capitalist quote: "Im Bendira, ancap troll, nice to meet you"
Two novels can change a bookish 14-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers

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Postby Ifreann » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:13 pm

Kengburg wrote:UNION STATES vs RIGHT TO WORK STATES
RTW: 22 STATES vs UNION: 28 STATES

This is a compilement of facts I have gathered, you decide and add your own facts to the pool. The ultimate duel between Unions and RTW states shall be decided PROVEN FACTS ONLY.

You must be new here.
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Tubbsalot
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Postby Tubbsalot » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:15 pm

Ifreann wrote:You must be new here.

Not to mention literally Hitler.
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Cannot think of a name
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Postby Cannot think of a name » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:15 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:
Absolutely. Unions have done good and as long as you can voluntarily join them or choose to not be a member, I'm OK. I do have a problem though when certain states mandate it.

Here's the problem with that: You don't pay dues to the union or participate in the union, but you still get the union benefits. That's a pretty sweet deal for you, but not for the union or the people working on your behalf for decent working conditions and a fair wage.

If you can sort that out, fine. But it seems like a great way to benefit off the sacrifices of others.

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Kengburg
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Postby Kengburg » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:16 pm

An average Hostess employee made anywhere from 27,000 to 43,000 per year, how is that unfair? And you have to pay union fees even if you do not want to be in a union. That is literally forcing someone to pay an orginization that they do not want to be apart of. Also if you look non-union states are more business friendly, have less unemployment, and have less debt.
Last edited by Kengburg on Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.
My Political Compass
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Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.21
Proud Allied State of the Union of Human Supremacists, Ave Humanitas!

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Sat Dec 22, 2012 7:21 pm

Kengburg wrote:An average Hostess employee made anywhere from 27,000 to 43,000 per year, how is that unfair? And you have to pay union fees even if you do not want to be in a union. That is literally forcing someone to pay an orginization that they do not want to be apart of.

Management was having an even better time of it, how is that fair?

They get the benefits of union membership without contributing to the union. How is that fair?
In support of Arch
The real question is how can you be a man and not be a feminist? ~ Neo Art
Also, bonobos.
<Sigh> NSG... where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
My favorite anarcho-capitalist quote: "Im Bendira, ancap troll, nice to meet you"
Two novels can change a bookish 14-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers

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