"Well-kept Gardens Die by Pacifism", did this happen to NSG?

[Kiskaanak]

We will hear plenty of, "people have always complained that the quality of this forum was going down but nothing actually changed". However, please read this essay about defending your online community:

Well-kept gardens die by pacifism

This in particular is why I've pretty much left. I think a lot of posters who have left would agree that this very accurately describes NSG.

Somewhere in the vastness of the Internet, it is happening even now. It was once a well-kept garden of intelligent discussion, where knowledgeable and interested folk came, attracted by the high quality of speech they saw ongoing. But into this garden comes a fool, and the level of discussion drops a little - or more than a little, if the fool is very prolific in their posting. (It is worse if the fool is just articulate enough that the former inhabitants of the garden feel obliged to respond, and correct misapprehensions - for then the fool dominates conversations.)

So the garden is tainted now, and it is less fun to play in; the old inhabitants, already invested there, will stay, but they are that much less likely to attract new blood. Or if there are new members, their quality also has gone down.

Then another fool joins, and the two fools begin talking to each other, and at that point some of the old members, those with the highest standards and the best opportunities elsewhere, leave...

What do you think, NSers? Were the fools always here and 'quality' was only an illusion?

[The Corparation]

What do you think, NSers? Were the fools always here and 'quality' was only an illusion?

Well obviously. But how about you stop trying to bring facts into our noble forum and let us go about our delusions whilst we mourn the nonexistent good ol' days.

[Neo Avon]

Forum elitism tends to be bad for member recruitment. I regularly tend to Vexxiang.com, which had more than 600 users at it's peak. Now it's a small, pitiful conglomerate of 12 to 18 debaters and washed-out moderators. Lots of freedom, but so empty....

[Grenartia]

What do you think, NSers? Were the fools always here and 'quality' was only an illusion?

Well obviously. But how about you stop trying to bring facts into our noble forum and let us go about our delusions whilst we mourn the nonexistent good ol' days.

And argue with each other over the existence of those days.

They exist, dammit.

[Galloism]

*treads carefully*

This forum still has pretty good quality. The only "going downhill" effects, I think, were the leaving of Cat-Tribe and Hammurab and the seemingly gradual yet continuous tightening of rules on the forum.

It used to be that we were told to "grow a thicker skin" if we got offended.

I haven't seen that phrase in I don't know how long.

It seems like taking a borderline opinion is, itself, nearly an expression of trolling or flamebaiting anymore, rather than the core of discussion.

Other than that, things are going ok.

[Yootwopia]

What do you think, NSers? Were the fools always here and 'quality' was only an illusion?

The problem is that the fools of five years ago are now young adults instead of kiddies, and the contrast between them and the new blood is just utterly fucking tragic.

Also the unnecessary additions of the water features known as F7 and the Arts and Fiction boards have ruined the feng shui of a formerly magnificent scrap of earth.

[Neo Avon]

*treads carefully*

This forum still has pretty good quality. The only "going downhill" effects, I think, were the leaving of Cat-Tribe and Hammurab and the seemingly gradual yet continuous tightening of rules on the forum.

It used to be that we were told to "grow a thicker skin" if we got offended.

I haven't seen that phrase in I don't know how long.

It seems like taking a borderline opinion is, itself, nearly an expression of trolling or flamebaiting anymore, rather than the core of discussion.

Other than that, things are going ok.

Pretty much. Crackdowns on something that invokes heated debate leads to bans by the dozen.

[Kiskaanak]

Forum elitism tends to be bad for member recruitment. I regularly tend to Vexxiang.com, which had more than 600 users at it's peak. Now it's a small, pitiful conglomerate of 12 to 18 debaters and washed-out moderators. Lots of freedom, but so empty....

What do you mean by elitism, and what 'freedoms' does that forum have?

[The Corparation]

Well obviously. But how about you stop trying to bring facts into our noble forum and let us go about our delusions whilst we mourn the nonexistent good ol' days.

And argue with each other over the existence of those days.

They exist, dammit.

But we were saying they existed back in 2009, when this particular forum was still less then a year old. Scientifically speaking the good ol' days don't have a set time, they're always sometime in the past a year or so ago, as such they good ol' days are always different and ever changing and thus an abstract concept rather then an absolute. As an abstract concept they manifest themselves differently to each of us and thus existed only in our heads. *nods

[PrncssOfCuddles]

I think yes, NSG died by pacifism.

Or maybe, the older of u's kept getting smarter, but the new ones who generally were also younger were still figuring out the stuff we found out 5, 6, 8 years ago. Once upon a time I did not understand the nuances of an abortion debate and read with great thrill the back and forth from both sides. Now I see an abortion thread and think, "not this shit again," even though if I hadn't had NSG to challenge my views I would be a veery different person today. So I think it is probably worthwhile for the newbs to go thru those same exercises, even tho it's old and boring for the more seasoned of us.

Also, when I was 18 and posting here, 15 yo perspectives didn't seem so distant and naive as thy do now that I am nearly 25.

[The Corparation]

were the leaving of Cat-Tribe and Hammurab

You left out Soviet Harg, he left in a huff a while back because he got a warning, haven't seen him on here since.

[Kiskaanak]

It seems like taking a borderline opinion is, itself, nearly an expression of trolling or flamebaiting anymore, rather than the core of discussion.

Other than that, things are going ok.

omg the overuse of the accusation of 'trolling' and 'strawmanning' just annoys the fuck out of me. It's like if anyone says something a person don't agree with, it therefore cannot be a real opinion and must be trolling.

[Galloism]

I think yes, NSG died by pacifism.

Or maybe, the older of u's kept getting smarter, but the new ones who generally were also younger were still figuring out the stuff we found out 5, 6, 8 years ago. Once upon a time I did not understand the nuances of an abortion debate and read with great thrill the back and forth from both sides. Now I see an abortion thread and think, "not this shit again," even though if I hadn't had NSG to challenge my views I would be a veery different person today. So I think it is probably worthwhile for the newbs to go thru those same exercises, even tho it's old and boring for the more seasoned of us.

Also, when I was 18 and posting here, 15 yo perspectives didn't seem so distant and naive as thy do now that I am nearly 25.

I think a major problem is quite that - the "not this shit again" problem.

How many times can you present facts, figures, sourced calculations, etc to the same argument before you just get tired of people just bullshit dismissing your claims, imputing bad motives, misrepresenting your argument, and so on?

It's tiring, and it's tiring to present the same old information to the same result over and over again.

People, good people, eventually just leave.

[Serrland]

\
Also the unnecessary additions of the water features known as F7 and the Arts and Fiction boards have ruined the feng shui of a formerly magnificent scrap of earth.

I still don't get F7: it seems to me that fostering lower levels of discussion is its very raison d'être.

[Hydesland]

Also the unnecessary additions of the water features known as F7 and the Arts and Fiction boards have ruined the feng shui of a formerly magnificent scrap of earth.

Many of the social threads in the old NSG were shit, it seemed like it was just an exclusive clique that posted there which I found rather annoying.

Anyway in general I think this whole thing is rose-tinted glasses and what not.

[Galloism]

It seems like taking a borderline opinion is, itself, nearly an expression of trolling or flamebaiting anymore, rather than the core of discussion.

Other than that, things are going ok.

omg the overuse of the accusation of 'trolling' and 'strawmanning' just annoys the fuck out of me. It's like if anyone says something a person don't agree with, it therefore cannot be a real opinion and must be trolling.

Trolling claims are overused, a lot, as is the strawman claim.

In fact, that's one of the major problems. When you actually point out that someone is really, truly, legitimately fighting against an argument you didn't make, and you call it what it is (a strawman), they dismiss it as "overuse".

That's problematic as well.

[Neo Avon]

Forum elitism tends to be bad for member recruitment. I regularly tend to Vexxiang.com, which had more than 600 users at it's peak. Now it's a small, pitiful conglomerate of 12 to 18 debaters and washed-out moderators. Lots of freedom, but so empty....

What do you mean by elitism, and what 'freedoms' does that forum have?

1. Elitism is a firmly established tier of forum-goers and moderators of greater age/experience/post count than the "newbs", whom are consistently harassed for their ignorance/lack of understanding for subjects or discussions meant for the "forum vets".

2. Freedoms Vex has now include free and utter use of language/insulting/harassment/political opinion/religious ranting/racist comments/etc......

So far it's worked out perfectly. No one bothers to insult one another, and our discussions are incredibly tame by comparison to the ones here.

[Yootwopia]

\
Also the unnecessary additions of the water features known as F7 and the Arts and Fiction boards have ruined the feng shui of a formerly magnificent scrap of earth.

I still don't get F7.

It basically acts as a holding pattern until one of the mods finally wises up and just DoSes everyone who posts there.

[The Corparation]

\
Also the unnecessary additions of the water features known as F7 and the Arts and Fiction boards have ruined the feng shui of a formerly magnificent scrap of earth.

I still don't get F7: it seems to me that fostering lower levels of discussion is its very raison d'être.

It increases the average intelligence levels on the other boards by concentrating the majority of the silly stupid shit in one spot.

[Yootwopia]

Also the unnecessary additions of the water features known as F7 and the Arts and Fiction boards have ruined the feng shui of a formerly magnificent scrap of earth.

Many of the social threads in the old NSG were shit, it seemed like it was just an exclusive clique that posted there which I found rather annoying.

Anyway in general I think this whole thing is rose-tinted glasses and what not.

I dunno, it seems a lot like there are more children (and bona fide kids) here than there used to be, with their fluffles and pony bullshit (also the creepy adults who try to fit in *shudder*).

[Yootwopia]

I still don't get F7: it seems to me that fostering lower levels of discussion is its very raison d'être.

It increases the average intelligence levels on the other boards by concentrating the majority of the silly stupid shit in one spot.

Not really. You'd hope so, but it actually doesn't.

[Kiskaanak]

I think a major problem is quite that - the "not this shit again" problem.

How many times can you present facts, figures, sourced calculations, etc to the same argument before you just get tired of people just bullshit dismissing your claims, imputing bad motives, misrepresenting your argument, and so on?

It's tiring, and it's tiring to present the same old information to the same result over and over again.

People, good people, eventually just leave.

Ah, sigh.

And here is the subjective nature of reality, aptly demonstrated. For most people who make the claims you do above, are also seen as guilty of the same behaviour by others.

What I mean is, we all justify doing things like 'imparting motives' and 'summing up someone's argument', while we may actually be imputing bad motives and misrepresenting arguments. Of course, only our foes do this, we are innocent.

So there is certainly a level of hypocrisy at play in poster interactions that for me personally, has completely taken the shine off.

Why I keep coming back here complaining about this, I don't know. But I do. Is it a pipe dream of an NSG that never existed? I like to think I'm more realistic than that, but hey, in your opinion I'm probably a loon so who knows.

[Norstal]

I think a major problem is quite that - the "not this shit again" problem.

How many times can you present facts, figures, sourced calculations, etc to the same argument before you just get tired of people just bullshit dismissing your claims, imputing bad motives, misrepresenting your argument, and so on?

It's tiring, and it's tiring to present the same old information to the same result over and over again.

People, good people, eventually just leave.

The mods should really make a new rule to stop the creation of new threads on old problems.

[Neo Avon]

I think a major problem is quite that - the "not this shit again" problem.

How many times can you present facts, figures, sourced calculations, etc to the same argument before you just get tired of people just bullshit dismissing your claims, imputing bad motives, misrepresenting your argument, and so on?

It's tiring, and it's tiring to present the same old information to the same result over and over again.

People, good people, eventually just leave.

Ah, sigh.

And here is the subjective nature of reality, aptly demonstrated. For most people who make the claims you do above, are also seen as guilty of the same behaviour by others.

What I mean is, we all justify doing things like 'imparting motives' and 'summing up someone's argument', while we may actually be imputing bad motives and misrepresenting arguments. Of course, only our foes do this, we are innocent.

So there is certainly a level of hypocrisy at play in poster interactions that for me personally, has completely taken the shine off.

Why I keep coming back here complaining about this, I don't know. But I do. Is it a pipe dream of an NSG that never existed? I like to think I'm more realistic than that, but hey, in your opinion I'm probably a loon so who knows.

Hypocrisy is fair game for all to play. Every political and philosophical discussion has it, and what makes it amazing is the source: bias

[The Corparation]

It increases the average intelligence levels on the other boards by concentrating the majority of the silly stupid shit in one spot.

Not really. You'd hope so, but it actually doesn't.

<Inert generic it used to work that way in the past till the great F7 crackdown rant.