Should Joseph Stalin be canonized?

[Goldsaver]

Yeah that's what he was, a real savior.

Well, he stopped this. No small feat really. And yet he's derided as a villain in the mainstream. Guess no good deed goes unpunished.

Holodomor and the Great Purge, two acts of mass murder, are why he is rightfully hated.

[Brandenburg-Altmark]

Yeah that's what he was, a real savior.

Well, he stopped this. No small feat really. And yet he's derided as a villain in the mainstream. Guess no good deed goes unpunished.

Yeah, fighting against an invasion totally blanks all the crimes against humanity committed under his "guidance." Then again, you've stated that anyone who opposes any regime calling itself "communist" or "socialist" is a "counterrevolutionary dog" who should be butchered in the streets, so I doubt you really give a damn.

[Tokyoni]

Well, he stopped this. No small feat really. And yet he's derided as a villain in the mainstream. Guess no good deed goes unpunished.

He may have stopped that, but not for selfish reasons of wanting control. He also, I don't know, committed mass genocides.

Without the USSR, almost certainly the Axis would have been victorious at the very least in the European front. Think of the millions more lives that would have been lost if not for the heroic action of the Soviet Union.

And no, relatively speaking the USSR under Stalin was quite humane. Actual executions of political opponents was quite rare - political isolation was the general practice: exile from the country or to a gulag. More akin to the Athenian conception of ostracism than anything else.

[Ferrond]

He may have stopped that, but not for selfish reasons of wanting control. He also, I don't know, committed mass genocides.

Without the USSR, almost certainly the Axis would have been victorious at the very least in the European front. Think of the millions more lives that would have been lost if not for the heroic action of the Soviet Union.

And no, relatively speaking the USSR under Stalin was quite humane. Actual executions of political opponents was quite rare - political isolation was the general practice: exile from the country or to a gulag. More akin to the Athenian conception of ostracism than anything else.

Nice trolling buddy

[H-Alba]

Fifty Million+ people. Fifty Million. That's 1/6 of the current US population. That's more than any other dictator (except maybe Mao). Certainly not Saint-worthy. Nevsky is, but Stalin is not.

How exactly did you come up with these numbers? Even if you count all of the soldiers who died in The Great Patriotic War, they come no where near that. Those are greatly inflated numbers at best.

[Fonteveille]

Without the USSR, almost certainly the Axis would have been victorious at the very least in the European front. Think of the millions more lives that would have been lost if not for the heroic action of the Soviet Union.

And no, relatively speaking the USSR under Stalin was quite humane. Actual executions of political opponents was quite rare - political isolation was the general practice: exile from the country or to a gulag. More akin to the Athenian conception of ostracism than anything else.

I think a democratic Russia without the mass murder and repression would have done just as well. And seriously, comparing the brutal Stalinist regime to the birthplace of democracy?

[Tokyoni]

Without the USSR, almost certainly the Axis would have been victorious at the very least in the European front. Think of the millions more lives that would have been lost if not for the heroic action of the Soviet Union.

And no, relatively speaking the USSR under Stalin was quite humane. Actual executions of political opponents was quite rare - political isolation was the general practice: exile from the country or to a gulag. More akin to the Athenian conception of ostracism than anything else.

Nice trolling buddy

How so?

The numeric majority of the fighting in the European field of WWII occurred on the Eastern Front. Without Hitler's forces being on the Eastern Front, it's highly doubtful he could have been defeated on the Western Front.

And, I don't know about you, but I'd certainly prefer being exiled or sent to a remote village along with my family, allowed to still live and continue on in life (in what was almost always a temporary measure; most sent to gulags returned after a sentence of a few years), than face execution.

[Tokyoni]

Without the USSR, almost certainly the Axis would have been victorious at the very least in the European front. Think of the millions more lives that would have been lost if not for the heroic action of the Soviet Union.

And no, relatively speaking the USSR under Stalin was quite humane. Actual executions of political opponents was quite rare - political isolation was the general practice: exile from the country or to a gulag. More akin to the Athenian conception of ostracism than anything else.

I think a democratic Russia without the mass murder and repression would have done just as well. And seriously, comparing the brutal Stalinist regime to the birthplace of democracy?

The USSR certainly was democratic in nature.

And again, a temporary political isolation is infinitely preferable to execution, would you not agree?

The USSR was far superior to Athens, in that, in Athens, only male citizens, a small minority of the population had any political voice in the nation. In the USSR, the entire proletariat of both sexes was liberated.

[Nationstatelandsville]

Fifty Million+ people. Fifty Million. That's 1/6 of the current US population. That's more than any other dictator (except maybe Mao). Certainly not Saint-worthy. Nevsky is, but Stalin is not.

How exactly are you arriving at those numbers? Even if you're counting the millions of brave Soviet soldiers who gave their lives in the Great Patriotic War fighting off the fascist hordes against him somehow, that's still nowhere close.

He killed those who didn't agree with him whole heartedly. I'd say that makes him a jack ass, and not worthy of being a saint.

[Fonteveille]

The USSR certainly was democratic in nature.

And again, a temporary political isolation is infinitely preferable to execution, would you not agree?

The USSR was far superior to Athens, in that, in Athens, only male citizens, a small minority of the population had any political voice in the nation. In the USSR, the entire proletariat of both sexes was liberated.

[Ferrond]

Nice trolling buddy

How so?

The numeric majority of the fighting in the European field of WWII occurred on the Eastern Front. Without Hitler's forces being on the Eastern Front, it's highly doubtful he could have been defeated on the Western Front.

And, I don't know about you, but I'd certainly prefer being exiled or sent to a remote village along with my family, allowed to still live and continue on in life (in what was almost always a temporary measure; most sent to gulags returned after a sentence of a few years), than face execution.

Oh if I could choose I would probably opt for none of the above. If I'm forced to I'd choose nazi occupiers than stalinist forces. Btw I understand you're a hardcore communist so I don't expect us to agree on that.

[Tokyoni]

How exactly are you arriving at those numbers? Even if you're counting the millions of brave Soviet soldiers who gave their lives in the Great Patriotic War fighting off the fascist hordes against him somehow, that's still nowhere close.

He killed those who didn't agree with him whole heartedly. I'd say that makes him a jack ass, and not worthy of being a saint.

No he didn't. Only a very small subset of his political opposition (generally those who in addition to such had committed some crime to warrant it) faced execution. Again, political isolation, either exile from the country or being sent to a gulag (remote villages), generally temporarily in the latter cases, was the general practice. Even Trotsky, Stalin's greatest real political opponent was sentenced to exile rather than execution. So your case has no real bearing.

[Ferrond]

:kiss:

I think a democratic Russia without the mass murder and repression would have done just as well. And seriously, comparing the brutal Stalinist regime to the birthplace of democracy?

The USSR certainly was democratic in nature.

And again, a temporary political isolation is infinitely preferable to execution, would you not agree?

The USSR was far superior to Athens, in that, in Athens, only male citizens, a small minority of the population had any political voice in the nation. In the USSR, the entire proletariat of both sexes was liberated.

Oh you need a reality pill man

[Tokyoni]

How so?

The numeric majority of the fighting in the European field of WWII occurred on the Eastern Front. Without Hitler's forces being on the Eastern Front, it's highly doubtful he could have been defeated on the Western Front.

And, I don't know about you, but I'd certainly prefer being exiled or sent to a remote village along with my family, allowed to still live and continue on in life (in what was almost always a temporary measure; most sent to gulags returned after a sentence of a few years), than face execution.

Oh if I could choose I would probably opt for none of the above. If I'm forced to I'd choose nazi occupiers than stalinist forces. Btw I understand you're a hardcore communist so I don't expect us to agree on that.

A "democractic socialist" who would prefer Hitler to Stalin. How interesting.

Well, all ideologies aside, I'd certainly rather be sent to one of Stalin's gulags (based on political action) than Hitler's concentration camps (based on who your grandparents were or your sexuality); primarily as the former was generally temporary, and most sent to gulags survived and were released, stayed in cleaner conditions with their families. And Hitler's concentration camps... not so much.

[Fonteveille]

:kiss:

The USSR certainly was democratic in nature.

And again, a temporary political isolation is infinitely preferable to execution, would you not agree?

The USSR was far superior to Athens, in that, in Athens, only male citizens, a small minority of the population had any political voice in the nation. In the USSR, the entire proletariat of both sexes was liberated.

Oh you need a reality pill man

Sadly the Glorious Leader has none to spare, despite the fact that he has managed to create a worker's utopia.

[Floreria]

x

[Ferrond]

Oh if I could choose I would probably opt for none of the above. If I'm forced to I'd choose nazi occupiers than stalinist forces. Btw I understand you're a hardcore communist so I don't expect us to agree on that.

A "democractic socialist" who would prefer Hitler to Stalin. How interesting.

Well, all ideologies aside, I'd certainly rather be sent to one of Stalin's gulags (based on political action) than Hitler's concentration camps (based on who your grandparents were or your sexuality); primarily as the former was generally temporary, and most sent to gulags survived and were released, stayed in cleaner conditions with their families. And Hitler's concentration camps... not so much.

Sorry, you need to brush off your knowledge about russian gulags. And btw I'm no democratic socialist, that's my second state.

[Tokyoni]

A "democractic socialist" who would prefer Hitler to Stalin. How interesting.

Well, all ideologies aside, I'd certainly rather be sent to one of Stalin's gulags (based on political action) than Hitler's concentration camps (based on who your grandparents were or your sexuality); primarily as the former was generally temporary, and most sent to gulags survived and were released, stayed in cleaner conditions with their families. And Hitler's concentration camps... not so much.

Sorry, you need to brush off your knowledge about russian gulags. And btw I'm no democratic socialist, that's my second state.

I've read a number of accounts of those sent to gulags. Most of them before I even identified as a communist in any fashion.

Generally the picture painted seemed to be that they were rather remote, geographically isolated villages, but that they lived with their families, had the supplies to maintain life provided for them, and were allowed to return to their original homes after a number of years. Some even chose to remain, as they'd grown accustomed to the community there.

[AlexJacobii]

Yeah that's what he was, a real savior.

Well, he stopped this. No small feat really. And yet he's derided as a villain in the mainstream. Guess no good deed goes unpunished.

Good deed? He broke the Moltov-Ribbentov pact by invading his sphere of influence and the Nazi's punished him for it. Maybe if you were referring to the invasion as the good deed you would be in the right.

[New Acardia]

This is some one's very sick joke That's not even funny at all as a Orthodox Christian I find the idea totally offensive

[Ferrond]

Sorry, you need to brush off your knowledge about russian gulags. And btw I'm no democratic socialist, that's my second state.

I've read a number of accounts of those sent to gulags. Most of them before I even identified as a communist in any fashion.

Generally the picture painted seemed to be that they were rather remote, geographically isolated villages, but that they lived with their families, had the supplies to maintain life provided for them, and were allowed to return to their original homes after a number of years. Some even chose to remain, as they'd grown accustomed to the community there.

Those must have been the 'easy' gulags then. I have also heard stories of people 'vanishing' either en route or after arriving there. Systematic torture, rape, exposure to the elements and even human experiments. If even half of these are true then sent to a gas chamber any day!

[Niur]

It makes no sense at all

[Tokyoni]

Well, he stopped this. No small feat really. And yet he's derided as a villain in the mainstream. Guess no good deed goes unpunished.

Good deed? He broke the Moltov-Ribbentov pact by invading his sphere of influence and the Nazi's punished him for it. Maybe if you were referring to the invasion as the good deed you would be in the right.

So you're taking sides with Hitler now?

And no, it's an objective fact that the Nazis broke the terms of the pact (which had highlighted which of the "border" nations were subject to who's influence) when they initiated military hostilities.

In any case, were it not for the Eastern front, The Axis would have almost certainly won the European field of WWII, and by the same factor, the Pacific would have been that much more difficult. Were it not for Stalin's actions, there would be millions more dead, any way you spin it.

[Fonteveille]

This is some one's very sick joke That's not even funny at all as a Orthodox Christian I find the idea totally offensive

Thank you! I'm glad one showed up. Congrats btw, on not making Stalin a saint

[Tokyoni]

I've read a number of accounts of those sent to gulags. Most of them before I even identified as a communist in any fashion.

Generally the picture painted seemed to be that they were rather remote, geographically isolated villages, but that they lived with their families, had the supplies to maintain life provided for them, and were allowed to return to their original homes after a number of years. Some even chose to remain, as they'd grown accustomed to the community there.

Those must have been the 'easy' gulags then. I have also heard stories of people 'vanishing' either en route or after arriving there. Systematic torture, rape, exposure to the elements and even human experiments. If even half of these are true then sent to a gas chamber any day!

So you're presenting me with hearsay?

Against the Nazis who did all of the above listed and more to their prisoners. As someone with a number of Jewish relatives, who presumably would be considered a Mischling under the law of that barbaric Third Reich, I find that last remark very offensive.