[Discussion] Nazi/Neo-Nazi symbolism in NS

[Mallorea and Riva]

For the same reason that the Hammer & Sickle isn't banned, when people see the Israeli flag the first reaction isn't the wardead from the issues in Gaza and elsewhere. Yes this is contentious, no it is not up for further debate.

What people think shouldn't matter. This is a political simulation game. I would like to be as accurate as possible if I ever had a Nazi themed nation.

Yes this is contentious, no it is not up for further debate.

[New Babylonia]

Just one question without any means of offense, but why do Nazi got banned but Israel not? I mean, I don't say that hamas don't do harm to them but Israel has killed people in great number, sorry if this considered as threadjacking.

For the same reason that the Hammer & Sickle isn't banned, when people see the Israeli flag the first reaction isn't the wardead from the issues in Gaza and elsewhere. Yes this is contentious, no it is not up for further debate.

How do you know what the average person thinks when they see a hammer and sickle? I've never seen the mods link to any sort of survey that proves this, nor are any of you qualified to know what an average would think. I took pysch class this year, and we do surveys. One of the surveys, i practically did this for you. This is what was yielded. The average person associates the hammer and sickle, obviously with communism. Which they then associate with starvation, poverty, gulags, work camps, the KGB, and people like Stalin. And this literally works in the same chain as a swastika.

Average person sees a Swastika. They think Fascism, Nazi Germany, first. Next, Hitler, the Holocaust, concentration camps. So if you want to go by it that way, even when seeing a swastika the first thing that comes to mind for alot people is not immediately the Holocaust. It follows in very short suit, but it isn't the first bulb to go off. When seeing a flag, the brain will generally associate with what used the flag first, the nation, not what the nation did.

When people see the stars and stripes they don't immediately think the Trail of Tears, or Japanese Internment. They think America first, and then proceed to the other things that America has done.

[The Sapientia]

For the same reason that the Hammer & Sickle isn't banned, when people see the Israeli flag the first reaction isn't the wardead from the issues in Gaza and elsewhere. Yes this is contentious, no it is not up for further debate.

How do you know what the average person thinks when they see a hammer and sickle? I've never seen the mods link to any sort of survey that proves this, nor are any of you qualified to know what an average would think. The average person associates the hammer and sickle, obviously with communism. Which they then associate with starvation, poverty, gulags, work camps, the KGB, and people like Stalin. And this literally works in the same chain as a swastika.

Average person sees a Swastika. They think Fascism, Nazi Germany, first. Next, Hitler, the Holocaust, concentration camps. So if you want to go by it that way, even when seeing a swastika the first thing that comes to mind for alot people is not immediately the Holocaust. It follows in very short suit, but it isn't the first bulb to go off. When seeing a flag, the brain will generally associate with what used the flag first, the nation, not what the nation did.

When people see the stars and stripes they don't immediately think the Trail of Tears, or Japanese Internment. They think America first, and then proceed to the other things that America has done.

Please, look one post above you.

[New Babylonia]

How do you know what the average person thinks when they see a hammer and sickle? I've never seen the mods link to any sort of survey that proves this, nor are any of you qualified to know what an average would think. The average person associates the hammer and sickle, obviously with communism. Which they then associate with starvation, poverty, gulags, work camps, the KGB, and people like Stalin. And this literally works in the same chain as a swastika.

Average person sees a Swastika. They think Fascism, Nazi Germany, first. Next, Hitler, the Holocaust, concentration camps. So if you want to go by it that way, even when seeing a swastika the first thing that comes to mind for alot people is not immediately the Holocaust. It follows in very short suit, but it isn't the first bulb to go off. When seeing a flag, the brain will generally associate with what used the flag first, the nation, not what the nation did.

When people see the stars and stripes they don't immediately think the Trail of Tears, or Japanese Internment. They think America first, and then proceed to the other things that America has done.

Please, look one post above you.

I saw it, thank you. But it's still a point to be made, since they want to talk about results that could only be taken by an actual documented survey that no one here has ever seen.

[Swith Witherward]

What people think shouldn't matter. This is a political simulation game. I would like to be as accurate as possible if I ever had a Nazi themed nation.

I believe Biehl and Hawley's "Banning the Swastika" Spiegel article in sums it up nicely. The swastika ban prevents "those too dumb to know any better from making a painful and tasteless faux pas." Of course, the article is talking about banning it across Europe and not on an online forum but the meat of the message is the same.

People can accurately portray their nation without putting specific things on display. Display would be, of course, static spots such as avatars (flags) and hard-wired factbooks. They can use these symbols IC in RP. Your avatar doesn't need to match your nation's flag.

If a Nazi nation wants to use a flag with a swastika, can they place a LINK to that gif in their hardwired factbook? I don't know. Any Mods reading this?

For instance, the text simply says National Flag and takes the reader to an offsite image.

[Tano]

Please, look one post above you.

I saw it, thank you. But it's still a point to be made, since they want to talk about results that could only be taken by an actual documented survey that no one here has ever seen.

Max's call. Stop your whining. He's not changing his mind.

[Misley]

Please stay on topic -- A lot of you are posting things that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, that have been debated hundreds of times, and aren't going to change.

The topic is where the line is drawn between various "hate-filled bits" (as it is apparently acceptable to use Ustasha symbolism despite the fact that it's inextricably linked to the genocide of Roma, Jews, Muslims, and Serbs) and what is involved in those decisions.

Scolopendra has suggested that Ustasha's flag is acceptable because it doesn't contain a flaming grenade. Is the flaming grenade (which is not present on the Croatian coat of arms from which the design on Ustasha's flag is taken) Moderation's required "hate-filled bit" that is prohibited in this instance?

When ASC posted the Horst-Wessel-Lied, was that what got him placed on DOS as he has claimed? If so, why was that the tipping point, and not his posting of Mein Kampf?

Where is the line drawn?

[New Babylonia]

I saw it, thank you. But it's still a point to be made, since they want to talk about results that could only be taken by an actual documented survey that no one here has ever seen.

Max's call. Stop your whining. He's not changing his mind.

I wasn't aware making a valid point was whining. Thank you for the condescension.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Please stay on topic -- A lot of you are posting things that have nothing to do with the topic at hand, that have been debated hundreds of times, and aren't going to change.

The topic is where the line is drawn between various "hate-filled bits" (as it is apparently acceptable to use Ustasha symbolism despite the fact that it's inextricably linked to the genocide of Roma, Jews, Muslims, and Serbs) and what is involved in those decisions.

Scolopendra has suggested that Ustasha's flag is acceptable because it doesn't contain a flaming grenade. Is the flaming grenade (which is not present on the Croatian coat of arms from which the design on Ustasha's flag is taken) Moderation's required "hate-filled bit" that is prohibited in this instance?

When ASC posted the Horst-Wessel-Lied, was that what got him placed on DOS as he has claimed? If so, why was that the tipping point, and not his posting of Mein Kampf?

Where is the line drawn?

As per the FAQ, we don't permit content that is obscene, illegal, threatening, malicious, defamatory, or spam. The "malicious" category includes material that a reasonable person would believe endorses or celebrates violence against real-life people.
... snip...

In summary, there's only a problem if we think a reasonable person looking at a nation page will think it's endorsing violence against real-life people. We are not crazy-strict about this. We are fairly sensitive to satire and humor. But when a nation appears to be simply rocking out to how cool it was for real-life country X to kill a bunch of people, we will delete that nation.

[Haydn]

The reason why the swastika is banned is because when some people see the swastika they think 'Holocaust' or 'genocide' or 'evil'. Those people may get offended at that. The reason the hammer and sickle is not bannable is because when people see it they think 'communism' or 'Stalingrad' or 'Russia'.

Sorry if this has already been said.

[Swith Witherward]

The topic is where the line is drawn between various "hate-filled bits" (as it is apparently acceptable to use Ustasha symbolism despite the fact that it's inextricably linked to the genocide of Roma, Jews, Muslims, and Serbs) and what is involved in those decisions.

Scolopendra has suggested that Ustasha's flag is acceptable because it doesn't contain a flaming grenade. Is the flaming grenade (which is not present on the Croatian coat of arms from which the design on Ustasha's flag is taken) Moderation's required "hate-filled bit" that is prohibited in this instance?

When ASC posted the Horst-Wessel-Lied, was that what got him placed on DOS as he has claimed? If so, why was that the tipping point, and not his posting of Mein Kampf?

Where is the line drawn?

If I were to make a guess here...

Ustaše, the group, was little known to many, especially those outside of Yugoslavia. It doesn't carry the same weight as the Nazi party. Few people see a U on a flag and think "terrorist" or "fascist".

Ustasha's flag does not contain the grenade or chequy. His flag is a U on a white background framed by three red lines and superimposed over a divided field (rising sun upper, azure band lower). We could argue that the stylized "shield" claims mutual color symbolism with the Yugoslavic and Ustaše gules and argent chequy, but I reeeealy think that's pushing it.

ASC's claim is hearsay. We don't know why he was removed. It's between him and Moderation and that privacy needs to be respected.

Meh. My thoughts on it.

[Russian Socialist Soviet States]

The reason why the swastika is banned is because when some people see the swastika they think 'Holocaust' or 'genocide' or 'evil'. Those people may get offended at that. The reason the hammer and sickle is not bannable is because when people see it they think 'communism' or 'Stalingrad' or 'Russia'.

Sorry if this has already been said.

This is a game where you run your nation. You should expect to see national symbols on this site.

[Untaroicht]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but no matter what rhetoric in the one stop rules shop is used, no matter how weirdly it's explained in legalese or other jargon...

...Isn't the #1 reason the swastika is banned is because Max Barry is personally uncomfortable with it, and (as the owner of the site) has the right to ask for it banned (the mods are just doing the owner's orders)?

[Shazbotdom]

The reason why the swastika is banned is because when some people see the swastika they think 'Holocaust' or 'genocide' or 'evil'. Those people may get offended at that. The reason the hammer and sickle is not bannable is because when people see it they think 'communism' or 'Stalingrad' or 'Russia'.

Sorry if this has already been said.

This is a game where you run your nation. You should expect to see national symbols on this site.

The fact is though that nth SITE OWNER has said No to the Swastika. His site, his rules.

[District XIV]

The reason why the swastika is banned is because when some people see the swastika they think 'Holocaust' or 'genocide' or 'evil'. Those people may get offended at that. The reason the hammer and sickle is not bannable is because when people see it they think 'communism' or 'Stalingrad' or 'Russia'.

Sorry if this has already been said.

This is a game where you run your nation. You should expect to see national symbols on this site.

Max has prohibited the Swastika from being used - end of story, quit it, all done.

Relevant to your persistent attitude: viewtopic.php?f=16&t=301232

[Geanna]

For the same reason that the Hammer & Sickle isn't banned, when people see the Israeli flag the first reaction isn't the wardead from the issues in Gaza and elsewhere. Yes this is contentious, no it is not up for further debate.

What people think shouldn't matter. This is a political simulation game. I would like to be as accurate as possible if I ever had a Nazi themed nation.

However regardless of what you feel, this is still a privately owned website and decisions are only made final by the owner. As Moderation has repeatedly pointed out almost to the point of exhaustion, when people see a Swastika, it's automatically associated with the Nazi Party and the crimes they committed within a few years. The Hammer and Sickle, and the whole ''who killed more'' is a rather redundant and bleak point, not many see the Hammer and Sickle and thinks ''Stalin massacred civilians'', the same goes for the Israeli flag. It is indeed Contentious as Mall pointed out, and really isn't a topic for discussion because it won't be changed [see previous statement on private ownership].

[The Archregimancy]

Max says the only banned flag is the swastika (with this occasionally extended to undeniably swastika-like flags of racist white supremacist far-right organisations like the AWB).

This is Max's site.

Therefore what Max says goes.

Putting it as gently as possible, this is unlikely to change, regardless of how many times we have this conversation.

I appreciate that the Ustashe flag has unfortunate historical connotations - my mother in law was born in Novi Sad during the Second World War. In this case we're technically talking about the reuse of the Ustashe "U" symbol in a modified Arizona flag rather than the actual flag of the Independent State of Croatia. Nonetheless, it's clear that the user understands the use of that symbol given the nation name.

Over the years we've had regular identical discussions over the Rising Sun of Imperial Japan, the flag of Democratic Kampuchea, the Soviet hammer and sickle, the flag of the PRC, and other flags with unfortunate connotations. Individual mods have also occasionally quietly highlighted potentially objectionable flags behind the scenes (I've done it myself; no, I'm not telling you which one). The answer is always clear-cut and crystal-clear: the swastika is banned. The other flags aren't.

Max has said so, Max still says so, Max will continue to say so. He has been wholly, entirely, and unambiguously consistent on this point.

And - with regret - that's as far as this discussion can ever go.

[District XIV]

(with this occasionally extended to undeniably swastika-like flags of racist white supremacist far-right organisations like the AWB).

By that I also assume Golden Dawn's logo (a Greek far-right ultranationalist neo-nazi etc) is banned as well?

[The Archregimancy]

(with this occasionally extended to undeniably swastika-like flags of racist white supremacist far-right organisations like the AWB).

By that I also assume Golden Dawn's logo (a Greek far-right ultranationalist neo-nazi etc) is banned as well?

I would assume nothing.

These decisions will continue to be made on a case by case basis.

I'm entirely familiar with the Golden Dawn flag and the Golden Dawn organisation, as well as the reputation of the latter organisation. To the best of my knowledge, at present the AWB flag is banned; the Golden Dawn flag isn't (I would gently point out that you linked to the logo - which is a fairly common blue and white Greek Key motif - rather than the flag, which is potentially more relevant to the point you're trying to make).

Please let's not waste time pointing out that this is potentially inconsistent; please assume we're aware of the arguments for and against in both cases.

[Gaiserin]

Rules are very clear and to the point concerning this issue. I don't see how this can't be anymore clear.

In my personal opinion, allowing Swastikas would be nice, since about every other political symbol is allowed too.

[New Babylonia]

Rules are very clear and to the point concerning this issue. I don't see how this can't be anymore clear.

In my personal opinion, allowing Swastikas would be nice, since about every other political symbol is allowed too.

I can understand for Roleplaying purposes, and i think Max might've even said (Or maybe someone said he did, i dunno, don't quote me on this) that if he could be sure it wouldn't be abused, he would allow it for RPing nations. But, of course, we can't trust people to be mature and not abuse things, which is a shame.

[St Azpilicueta]

Fascist Symbolism isn't exclusive to the Swastika and you don't need to use the Swastika to RP a fascist or Nazi nation just like you don't need the hammer and sickle to portray a communist nation as there are many communist symbols not exclusive to the hammer and sickle. Although I do agree that not all swastikas should fall under this ban especially if they have or are used for deeper religious meanings and that the only true swastika to be band should be the one used in Nazi Symbolism. Just my two cents make of it what you will.

[Katganistan]

Rules are very clear and to the point concerning this issue. I don't see how this can't be anymore clear.

In my personal opinion, allowing Swastikas would be nice, since about every other political symbol is allowed too.

I can understand for Roleplaying purposes, and i think Max might've even said (Or maybe someone said he did, i dunno, don't quote me on this) that if he could be sure it wouldn't be abused, he would allow it for RPing nations. But, of course, we can't trust people to be mature and not abuse things, which is a shame.

Point of order: it is not allowed for your flag or a regional flag. However, unless things have recently changed, it has been allowed in RP threads and for illustrative purposes in discussion threads.

However, I would not overdo it in either of those situations.

[Geanna]

For the same reason that the Hammer & Sickle isn't banned, when people see the Israeli flag the first reaction isn't the wardead from the issues in Gaza and elsewhere. Yes this is contentious, no it is not up for further debate.

How do you know what the average person thinks when they see a hammer and sickle? I've never seen the mods link to any sort of survey that proves this, nor are any of you qualified to know what an average would think. I took pysch class this year, and we do surveys. One of the surveys, i practically did this for you. This is what was yielded. The average person associates the hammer and sickle, obviously with communism. Which they then associate with starvation, poverty, gulags, work camps, the KGB, and people like Stalin. And this literally works in the same chain as a swastika.

Average person sees a Swastika. They think Fascism, Nazi Germany, first. Next, Hitler, the Holocaust, concentration camps. So if you want to go by it that way, even when seeing a swastika the first thing that comes to mind for alot people is not immediately the Holocaust. It follows in very short suit, but it isn't the first bulb to go off. When seeing a flag, the brain will generally associate with what used the flag first, the nation, not what the nation did.

When people see the stars and stripes they don't immediately think the Trail of Tears, or Japanese Internment. They think America first, and then proceed to the other things that America has done.

I'd have to disagree, when I see a Swastika I immediately think Nazism, Neo-Nazis, skin-heads, Racism, and the Holocaust, I don't even draw a line to fascism, now, show me a fasces and I'd think fascist. I see a hammer and sickle, I think Communism and the USSR. ''I took pysch class this year, and we do surveys. One of the surveys, i practically did this for you.'' - Nice fallacy, we've no way to prove what you did is true, and simply stating it as if it is fact discredits your entire argument.

As has been pointed out tirelessly, It won't change, this site is not a Democracy, it is privately owned, Max's word is final. Do we really have to continue and press the issue? Or will we just continue to circle jerk until the end of time?

[Mereon]

To comment on Mallorea and Riva's comment on the Israeli flag, yes, in fact. With all that's in the news, when someone sees the Israeli flag, they will generally associate it with the violence in Gaza.