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Concern about the Issue Submission Process

A place to spoil daily issues for those who haven't had them yet, snigger at typos, and discuss ideas for new ones.
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Jakker City
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Ex-Nation

Concern about the Issue Submission Process

Postby Jakker City » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:52 am

I am new to the Issues Forum and the process of writing an issue. During my brief time here, I have noticed some trends that I would appreciate some clarity on.

Currently, the process of writing an Issue is as follows: Get an idea, make a draft, post the draft and hopefully get some feedback from people, submit the draft and hope for the best.

It seems like this system is lacking on multiple fronts. There is no guarantee that you will get feedback for your draft, so working on improving it can be iffy, especially for new people writing issues that need a lot of work. Secondly, the fact that people are not notified if their issue is accepted seems silly to me. How do I know that it wasn't accepted? How do I know what was the matter with it? All this seems to do is leave the whole aspect of issues being accepted very lacking in transparency.

Yet issues are needed. Time and time again, I see people post about wanting new issues. Even Issue Editors comment about the need for people to write new issues. To me, I don't necessarily think the problem is that people are not writing issues. In fact, mods and issue editors have a huge backlog of issues that are submitted. The problem is in the process. It is not very clear cut and it is slow:

Luna Amore wrote:This is the slowest moving forum. Please don't bump your thread after a day. If it falls off the front page, you can bump it. Although the best bump here is an updated draft.


There has to a way to increase pace. I rarely see issue editors/mods provide feedback on a draft in the forum. If anyone provides feedback, you should be thankful. I think feedback of any kind should be almost a guarantee. This forum can be fast moving, while still producing a quality product.

Also:

Frisbeeteria wrote:You only get notified if it is accepted. We get too many spam issues to send telegrams for every denial. 99+% of all submissions are denied in any case.


Clearly, the system is not working as effectively as it can. I have a few thoughts:

1. Formalize a system for accepting issues where you must post a draft of the issue before submitting it. If you don't make a draft beforehand that has been put on the forum and given feedback, then it is denied. By making this an official part of the process, it ensures that issues that are spam and have no thread can be disposed of easily and quickly. It also doesn't guarantee, but give a way to ensure that the issues that are submitted and looked out are of some redeeming quality. It also decreases the pool of issues that need to be focused on by the issue editors/mods. A section on the submission page can be added that asks if the issue has been submitted for feedback and a link to the thread. I understand that not everyone may have access to the forum and this won't be the case for issue contests, but this will focus the submission process.

2. Designate Forum Issue Forum Volunteers. I am aware that issue editors and mods are volunteering also, but this is to create a non-official title for people who would be interested in helping to provide feedback to issue drafts on the forum. There doesn't need to be anything special other than a thread that lists the current forum volunteers. This will give some level of personal responsibility to the volunteers to increase the likelihood that a draft is looked at. This also gives a track towards possibly becoming an issue editor. Not saying that the track is a guarantee, but definitely something, similar to a deputy system, to get others involved on an informal level. Finally, this allows mods/issue editors to focus on other things like answering questions about current issues and reviewing the issue submissions, which it seems is what they are more concerned about anyways.

3. Notify nations when an issue is denied/accepted. If number 1 is implemented, hopefully there will be less issues that can be focused on for consideration, so there will be more of an opportunity to personally telegram a nation if their issue is denied. The fact that there is no timeline means that a nation can have all these great potential raw issue issues, but they keep getting denied and never know what the reason is. So many potential issues are lost that way. By notifying either way, not only is it professional and courteous, but gives closure of that issue. If one is notified that their issue is denied, then they can go back to the forum and work out with the volunteers why it was denied and maybe an issue editor can give some insight as well.

These are just some ideas I have. I want to lessen the load of issue editors and the mods and I want help see NS bring more issues to nations. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. I know people are busy looking over all the submissions from the contest, so take your time. Perhaps these ideas don't have much merit to them, but at least I hope it sparks some conversation and an increase in transparency. Thank you for your time.

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Luna Amore
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Postby Luna Amore » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:27 am

Jakker City wrote:In fact, mods and issue editors have a huge backlog of issues that are submitted.

This has thankfully not been true for months. We used to have a backlog of near 5,000 issues. We are currently at a queue of 83, all of which have been looked at in some respect.

Jakker City wrote:There has to a way to increase pace. I rarely see issue editors/mods provide feedback on a draft in the forum. If anyone provides feedback, you should be thankful. I think feedback of any kind should be almost a guarantee. This forum can be fast moving, while still producing a quality product.

The forum will move as fast as you want it to move. The more activity, the faster it will move. I would like to be as active in Got Issues as I have been in the past, but it isn't possible for me right now. I still try and comment on the occasional draft. Thankfully there are issue authors and aspiring issue authors who are willing to comment and help each other.

Jakker City wrote:1. Formalize a system for accepting issues where you must post a draft of the issue before submitting it. If you don't make a draft beforehand that has been put on the forum and given feedback, then it is denied.

I don't know if this is technically possible, but I'm not sure it would solve any problems seeing as how the backlog is gone.

Jakker City wrote:2. Designate Forum Issue Forum Volunteers.

It's kinda how it works already. There are regulars to this forum who help out when they can. They don't have any sort of title, but I'm not sure if that would change anything.

Jakker City wrote:3. Notify nations when an issue is denied/accepted.

You do receive a telegram and the finished issue when it is added to the game. Telegramming rejected ones is a bit harder. The vast majority of submissions are completely unusable and unfixable. I've deleted probably around 4,000 issue submissions myself. If I had to send a personalized TG explaining why, we'd still have a backlog.

Jakker City wrote:Thank you for your time.

Thank you for a well-thought-out suggestion post.
Last edited by Luna Amore on Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Jakker City
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Postby Jakker City » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:33 am

Thank you for the through insight, Luna. This is by no means a criticism of any of the mods or issue editors. You all do wonderful jobs. I am simply trying to think of ways to improve what is in place. I don't have the experience to say if the current situation is an ideal or better/worse than before, so thank you again.

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Sanctaria
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Postby Sanctaria » Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:58 am

When we eventually clear the pool we have, which Luna says stands at 83, perhaps we could look at sending a regret TG every time we delete (as I can't imagine it'd be more than 3 or 4 times a day).

That isn't a promise or anything - just a suggestion I'll have to bring up with the team.
Last edited by Sanctaria on Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jakker City
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Postby Jakker City » Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:11 pm

Sanctaria wrote:When we eventually clear the pool we have, which Luna says stands at 83, perhaps we could look at sending a regret TG every time we delete (as I can't imagine it'd be more than 3 or 4 times a day).

That isn't a promise or anything - just a suggestion I'll have to bring up with the team.


Thank you for the consideration. A rejection notification doesn't have to be sent to all if it will be too much. But particularly, if the issue has any level of promise to it, the notification will allow the author to feel more encouraged to continue to work on it. There even could be a template that is sent out that includes "Feel free to resubmit on the issues forum for additional feedback." Ideally, the rejection would have specifics as to why it was rejected but something is better than nothing :)

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The Flying Castle
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Flying Castle » Tue Feb 17, 2015 1:55 pm

Oho, very good thread. I was wondering myself that once I send in an issue I write and if it gets rejected, how am I going to fix whatever happened to be wrong with it if I don't get any feedback on what the problem was.

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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:06 pm

Jakker City wrote:rejection notification

One of the problems with rejection feedback is how to be ... diplomatic about it. For instance, how do you politely say:
  • Please learn the rudiments of grammar and/or spelling before you attempt to submit issues.
  • Sorry, giant tentacle robot fights are a really dumb idea for an issue.
  • One of the hallmarks of this game is humor. Please develop a sense of.
  • I'm not sure how you managed to come up with 8 options for dealing with leftover orange peels, but perhaps you should broaden your focus.
  • We already have about fifty issues where you megalomaniacally take over the world. We don't really need another one.
  • Please write NationStates issues in English. Most of us don't read Welsh. (Ysgrifennwch materion NationStates yn Saesneg. Nid yw'r rhan fwyaf ohonom yn darllen Cymraeg.)
  • Not everyone wants to be a dictator / theocrat / oligarch. Maybe some options should point towards not killing all your citizens?
  • No, we can't evaluate your RPs and only give this to you if you play Future Tech.
  • Nationstates issues generally require more than a single option, thanks.
  • Pardon, but did your cat tapdance on your keyboard, or did you actually intend to write that?

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Jakker City
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Postby Jakker City » Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:30 pm

Thank you for the response, Fris. I do agree that there should be some level of political correctness with how you reply, but I think it is important for someone to know if their issue was poor for whatever reason. Personally, I would rather get the honest truth, so I know what to work on.

What might be the easiest solution would be to create a vague template to send to rejects that says your issue submission (insert what it was) has been rejected at this time. Feel free to keep working on it using our issues guides. You may post your issue on the forum for additional feedback. Thank you for taking the time to write an issue for NationStates.

And then if the nation does submit it on the forum that could possibly be where a mod/issue editor gives more insight into why it was rejected if other players cannot.
Last edited by Jakker City on Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Railana
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Postby Railana » Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:55 pm

Personally, I just want to know if my issue submission was rejected or not. If you don't have time to add personal feedback, I can live with that; it's somewhat annoying not knowing whether it was thrown out or just hasn't been looked at yet. I'm sure a number of others feel the same way.
Last edited by Railana on Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:12 pm

Railana wrote:Personally, I just want to know if my issue submission was rejected or not.

I understand this viewpoint. From our perspective, one possible solution would be to automatically send a generic telegram (perhaps with the issue content) when an IE deletes an issue. That would require new code, and our admins are pretty much buried under higher priority issues. I will, however, bring forward the suggestion.

What I don't see is individual telegrams from the deleting IE describing the problems. It's a lot of work, with a reasonable expectation of multiple "But why??!?! My issue was PURRFECT!!!" replies. Better to do it as a generic with a suggestion to post in Got Issues for player/mod feedback.

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Jakker City
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Postby Jakker City » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:48 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Railana wrote:Personally, I just want to know if my issue submission was rejected or not.

I understand this viewpoint. From our perspective, one possible solution would be to automatically send a generic telegram (perhaps with the issue content) when an IE deletes an issue. That would require new code, and our admins are pretty much buried under higher priority issues. I will, however, bring forward the suggestion.

What I don't see is individual telegrams from the deleting IE describing the problems. It's a lot of work, with a reasonable expectation of multiple "But why??!?! My issue was PURRFECT!!!" replies. Better to do it as a generic with a suggestion to post in Got Issues for player/mod feedback.


That sounds perfect, Fris. I understand that the admins are quite busy as always. Thanks again for taking time out to observe our concerns! :D :hug:

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Sierra Lyricalia
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Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:23 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Jakker City wrote:rejection notification

One of the problems with rejection feedback is how to be ... diplomatic about it. For instance, how do you politely say:
  • Please learn the rudiments of grammar and/or spelling before you attempt to submit issues.
  • Sorry, giant tentacle robot fights are a really dumb idea for an issue.
  • One of the hallmarks of this game is humor. Please develop a sense of.
  • I'm not sure how you managed to come up with 8 options for dealing with leftover orange peels, but perhaps you should broaden your focus.
  • We already have about fifty issues where you megalomaniacally take over the world. We don't really need another one.
  • Please write NationStates issues in English. Most of us don't read Welsh. (Ysgrifennwch materion NationStates yn Saesneg. Nid yw'r rhan fwyaf ohonom yn darllen Cymraeg.)
  • Not everyone wants to be a dictator / theocrat / oligarch. Maybe some options should point towards not killing all your citizens?
  • No, we can't evaluate your RPs and only give this to you if you play Future Tech.
  • Nationstates issues generally require more than a single option, thanks.
  • Pardon, but did your cat tapdance on your keyboard, or did you actually intend to write that?


This list should be stickied to the top of the forum. Not least because whoever comes up with that magic bullet ninth orange peel option is a friggin' rock star. :p
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:40 am

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:This list should be stickied to the top of the forum. Not least because whoever comes up with that magic bullet ninth orange peel option is a friggin' rock star. :p
And now I'm seriously tempted to try writing a multi-option issue on the subject...
:D
H'r'rmm, the GA has its officially-approved 'Joke Proposals' thread and the SC has seen occasional joke proposals with threads of their own too, but what's the Modly policy on joke drafts in this section of the forums?

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^_^
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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:14 am

Bears Armed wrote:what's the Modly policy on joke drafts in this section of the forums?

Feel free to launch a [JOKE ISSUES] thread.
Last edited by Frisbeeteria on Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:16 am

Frisbeeteria wrote:
Bears Armed wrote:what's the Modly policy on joke drafts in this section of the forums?

Feel free to launch a [JOKE ISSUES] thread.

Thank you. I'll do that when I've done enough more work on this concept to consider it worth posting, probably tomorrow or the day after, if nobody else does so before then.

EDIT (Sunday 22nd February): Still working on this, almost ready... DONE.
Last edited by Bears Armed on Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Nation of Quebec
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Postby Nation of Quebec » Thu Feb 19, 2015 10:43 am

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:
Frisbeeteria wrote:One of the problems with rejection feedback is how to be ... diplomatic about it. For instance, how do you politely say:
  • Please learn the rudiments of grammar and/or spelling before you attempt to submit issues.
  • Sorry, giant tentacle robot fights are a really dumb idea for an issue.
  • One of the hallmarks of this game is humor. Please develop a sense of.
  • I'm not sure how you managed to come up with 8 options for dealing with leftover orange peels, but perhaps you should broaden your focus.
  • We already have about fifty issues where you megalomaniacally take over the world. We don't really need another one.
  • Please write NationStates issues in English. Most of us don't read Welsh. (Ysgrifennwch materion NationStates yn Saesneg. Nid yw'r rhan fwyaf ohonom yn darllen Cymraeg.)
  • Not everyone wants to be a dictator / theocrat / oligarch. Maybe some options should point towards not killing all your citizens?
  • No, we can't evaluate your RPs and only give this to you if you play Future Tech.
  • Nationstates issues generally require more than a single option, thanks.
  • Pardon, but did your cat tapdance on your keyboard, or did you actually intend to write that?


This list should be stickied to the top of the forum. Not least because whoever comes up with that magic bullet ninth orange peel option is a friggin' rock star. :p


I fully agree with this. We should have a stickied list of unacceptable issues and reasons why your issue wasn't accepted.
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Golgothastan
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Postby Golgothastan » Thu Feb 19, 2015 11:50 am

We have six stickies in this forum. It might be worth trying to consolidate a couple of them.

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Esterild
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Postby Esterild » Mon May 04, 2015 9:56 pm

I'm late to the party, but I just wanted to chime in and say it would be great to know whether submitted issues have been rejected - even if there is no accompanying feedback. A boilerplate telegram that suggests asking the Got Issues? forum would probably be a good idea. Thank you!

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Golgothastan
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Postby Golgothastan » Tue May 05, 2015 12:31 am

Esterild wrote:I'm late to the party, but I just wanted to chime in and say it would be great to know whether submitted issues have been rejected - even if there is no accompanying feedback. A boilerplate telegram that suggests asking the Got Issues? forum would probably be a good idea. Thank you!

I don't want to overcomplicate things, but I've already worked on a couple of issues from the Deleted folder: in other words, they were rejected, then I decided they were worth salvaging. Also, one issue that I deleted has, I think, been checked out by another editor. So in those cases, someone might have received a telegram telling them their issue has been rejected, only for it to possibly end up going through!

I believe this is the sort of thing that may be discussed to improve the process, but just bear in mind that it's going to be hard to create something completely definitive.

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Postby Unibot III » Tue May 05, 2015 4:28 am

Perhaps don't allow people to respond to rejection letters.
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Postby Eaischpnaeieacgkque Bhcieaghpodsttditf » Tue May 05, 2015 6:57 pm

What about just a telegram saying that "Congratulations! your issue has been accepted and is being looked at as you read this" or "We are sad to inform you that your issue, after a heated debate, was not what we are looking for right now, maybe next time" and have it set up similar to regional entrance telegrams that you can make. That way it is uniform, easy to set up, and hopefully not hard to use. If that won't work, I'm sorry for putting it up. Just an idea though.

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Golgothastan
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Postby Golgothastan » Wed May 06, 2015 2:17 am

Eaischpnaeieacgkque Bhcieaghpodsttditf wrote:What about just a telegram saying that "Congratulations! your issue has been accepted and is being looked at as you read this" or "We are sad to inform you that your issue, after a heated debate, was not what we are looking for right now, maybe next time" and have it set up similar to regional entrance telegrams that you can make. That way it is uniform, easy to set up, and hopefully not hard to use. If that won't work, I'm sorry for putting it up. Just an idea though.

Don't be sorry for floating ideas. :)

I am not speaking for the other Editors, who have had to deal with thousands more submissions than I have, but I am not completely opposed to the idea of some basic automated feedback. But I also worry that giving out bad or misleading information is worse than giving out no information at all. To use your examples:
  • the phrasing of the "rejection" seems almost to encourage the player to resubmit the issue, when 90% of deleted issues are definitely completely unsalvageable
  • the rejection also seems absolute when, as mentioned, things can be - and occasionally are - retrieved from the deleted pile
  • the "acceptance" telegram just seems to promise false hope to those whose issue takes a long time to edit or never makes it into the game, and to serve no point to those whose issue is accepted and whom will hence receive a formal congratulation telegram anyway

Again not speaking for the other Editors, but I have a couple of times been in TG contact with authors of issues about how to improve them, and that's something I'd be willing to continue to do. But I wonder whether keeping the system informal, including by posting in this forum, might be better than setting some kind of artificial automation that isn't actually that reliable or helpful.

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Luna Amore
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Postby Luna Amore » Wed May 06, 2015 8:56 am

Eaischpnaeieacgkque Bhcieaghpodsttditf wrote:What about just a telegram saying that "Congratulations! your issue has been accepted and is being looked at as you read this" or "We are sad to inform you that your issue, after a heated debate, was not what we are looking for right now, maybe next time" and have it set up similar to regional entrance telegrams that you can make. That way it is uniform, easy to set up, and hopefully not hard to use. If that won't work, I'm sorry for putting it up. Just an idea though.

The basic layout of the issue submission process is:
All drafts are dropped into a single queue. From there editors can do one of three things:
- delete the draft
- take the draft into their personal pool for editing
- move the draft into a second pool for drafts that have been looked at, are potential issues, but have no editor assigned.

Drafts can (and have) move freely between all three. Golgo has been picking drafts out of the deleted bin, and I suspect this is going to be happening more often since there isn't a backlog. We only get 1-5 a day so editors can now leisurely look over the last 50 or so deleted drafts to see if maybe something slipped by. This wasn't possible (or recommended) when we had thousands of drafts and I was deleting hundreds of drafts at a time.

Some issues sit in editor's bins for a while too. I just recently took one out of Salusa's bin that was submitted back in 2004. That's obviously an extreme case, but it isn't unusual for an issue to sit in an editor's bin for months.

Any auto-TG system would need to take this into account.
Last edited by Luna Amore on Wed May 06, 2015 9:03 am, edited 2 times in total.


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