Illegal Script Usage "Predator": Punishments

[Klopstock]

The moderation team has done a strong job here. Uncovering and investigating systematic script violations by a group of players is not an easy task. And deciding how to remedy those violations is an equally challenging one as well. This was a fairly extensive effort to undermine the integrity of this game, for the second time in quick succession, by a pretty well-defined group of players. A strong response has been handed down and it's an appropriate one. Hopefully it will change NationStates' culture for the better going forward. At least for a while.

On a personal note, I'd like to note those players accepting their punishment with class and moving on. It is not going unnoticed.

[Grenartia]

If a day without R/D were to dawn, I think many 'Fendas would happily hang up their capes, and >95% of the population of NS would breathe a sigh of relief.

1. ... many of whom would get bored and promptly retire. R/D is important to the allure of NS.

2. Like it or not, the R/D game is a chaotic, strategy-based facet of NS that may not have even been envisioned by Max when he first started the game's concept. 3. It's fun and interesting, especially considering how our game lacks a bunch of bells and whistles like some of the newer, graphics-based web games have come and gone in the time of NS. Many prominent individuals who are in gameplay have at least had some part in the R/D game, and, surprisingly enough, so have many prominent RP'ers.

1. Hardly. Methinks you're overstating the "allure" of R/D. Without trying to drag the debate into another tailchasing threadjack regarding R/D and RP, most of us just want to create nations and RP.

2. A facet that the majority of us (or, at least the people I know) would rather go the way of the dodo.

3. To some, but not to all, and I'd argue not even most of the people who play.

[Ovybia]

I have to admit that I was sad to hear this news. It's going to be a different and much duller NS world without the major raiding group around but they did deserve a strong punishment for what they did. I think this punishment is too harsh because it effects people who didn't know they were breaking the rules. My opinion is anyone who willingly used the script knowing it was illegal deserves no sympathy but others, who didn't know, should not be punished for something they had no fault in.

[Neu California]

As such, we're *** deleting the regions of DEN and Cimmeria, and all of their trophy regions. *** Players should not attempt to re-found these regions; they will be taken into mod custody, and the "trophy regions" gradually released for player at an undetermined point in the future. DEN and Cimmeria will remain permanently prohibited regions. The creation or development of DEN or Cimmeria themed successor regions is equally prohibited until such time as we determine otherwise. In addition, we are *** ending all current DEN and Cimmeria occupations. ***

After some thought, I have a question, concerning the above. I moved back to a region once controlled by DEN and is now under the control of the mods (California, specifically), and now we have a WA delegate (not me). I was wondering if the delegates of these liberated regions could be given, on request (not be automatically be given, just on request) certain powers that could not be used to take control of said regions be assigned to said delegates, to help them redevelop these regions now that they're liberated. Specifically, I was thinking of allowing them access, on request, to the following authority positions: embassies, polls, and (if not seen as too powerful) communications, leaving executive, border control, and appearance (simply because it lists the former founder) under mod control for the time being

[General Knot]

http://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=604141

[FOREVERDEN]

http://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=604141

Thanks Knot!

[Talanis Collective]

I've ben a DEN member for only a short time. I joined because my first nation, dead to inactivity years past, taught me how boring just responding to issues was, and the prospect of raiding seemed interesting. Since I joined, I never actually participated in a raid, but I did join what I considered a fun, active community that played the role of conqueror well. I looked forward to logging in and reading and posting on the rmb, and eventually to joining the army for real. As such, and taking into account my first foray into this game, I must wholeheartedly and vehemently object to this heavy-handed decision to break DEN apart permanently. The very notion of perma-disbanding a region because a few people used a script that did no harm to the game, the players, or the administration of NS is, in my mind, the equivalent of dropping a nuke on a house party for breaking noise ordinances. Whatever your goal in this punishment was, you have failed. Raiders will still raid. Players will still skirt the rules. All that has been accomplished is detrimentally affecting a group of people, most of whom never even knew what predator was. I admit, before posting this I didn't skim forum rules to see if criticism of mod decisions was verboten, but given the situation, I honestly don't care. There was no justice here, no apt penalty for the infraction. There was only the sound and fury, the crushing fist where a wagging finger was all that was warranted. As the site administration, you have exercised your right to mete out "justice" and for that, I have no recourse but to express my anger and disappointment at your choice to punish the innocent alongside the guilty. At least when raiders attack a region, it can be liberated or refounded. We were conquerors. You are destroyers.

[The Candy Lane]

We were conquerors. You are destroyers.

I love when the sandcastle-kickers get dirt in their eyes. You guys were playing a different game, the punishment gives those players an opportunity to go play a different game without continuing to wreck this one.

[Zacherie]

There was only the sound and fury, the crushing fist where a wagging finger was all that was warranted.

I understand your frustration, however the punishments were warranted.

[Talanis Collective]

We were conquerors. You are destroyers.

I love when the sandcastle-kickers get dirt in their eyes. You guys were playing a different game, the punishment gives those players an opportunity to go play a different game without continuing to wreck this one.

In my short DEN stay, I've heard countless people bemoan DEN "ruining" the game, but the simple fact remains that it is untrue. There were simple ways to prevent being raided. 1) Active founder. 2) Non-exec delegate. If you region had neither, anyone in it could have founded one with a similar name and moved every active member to it. Natives always hate conquerors, but the smart ones learn to build walls. Totally destroying a region in perpetuity is far from a proportional response, even if raiding itself was the core issue, which it isn't, as I thought was perfectly clear.

[Luziyca]

I've ben a DEN member for only a short time. I joined because my first nation, dead to inactivity years past, taught me how boring just responding to issues was, and the prospect of raiding seemed interesting. Since I joined, I never actually participated in a raid, but I did join what I considered a fun, active community that played the role of conqueror well. I looked forward to logging in and reading and posting on the rmb, and eventually to joining the army for real. As such, and taking into account my first foray into this game, I must wholeheartedly and vehemently object to this heavy-handed decision to break DEN apart permanently. The very notion of perma-disbanding a region because a few people used a script that did no harm to the game, the players, or the administration of NS is, in my mind, the equivalent of dropping a nuke on a house party for breaking noise ordinances. Whatever your goal in this punishment was, you have failed. Raiders will still raid. Players will still skirt the rules. All that has been accomplished is detrimentally affecting a group of people, most of whom never even knew what predator was. I admit, before posting this I didn't skim forum rules to see if criticism of mod decisions was verboten, but given the situation, I honestly don't care. There was no justice here, no apt penalty for the infraction. There was only the sound and fury, the crushing fist where a wagging finger was all that was warranted. As the site administration, you have exercised your right to mete out "justice" and for that, I have no recourse but to express my anger and disappointment at your choice to punish the innocent alongside the guilty. At least when raiders attack a region, it can be liberated or refounded. We were conquerors. You are destroyers.

Apart from this wall of text that I find difficult to decipher, it is such a shame that this has happened to you. But the script did contain the potential to cause harm to the game and devastate far more communities. Thus, it was a good thing that Predator is stopped.

Also, DEN was once TBR. You know what happened? They were banned from recruiting by TG, so TBR decided to move to DEN so to evade that ban. It is clear that much of the individuals in DEN are at least complicit in the culture of rules violation. Thus, the punishment was justified, since they had multiple chances in the past to stop.

[Talanis Collective]

There was only the sound and fury, the crushing fist where a wagging finger was all that was warranted.

I understand your frustration, however the punishments were warranted.

Maybe, and I mean a thin maybe, for the actual rulebreakers. How was it warranted to harm the hundreds of players who never even knew what predator was by forever ending any incarnation of their region? Delete DEN, alright, it's not cool, but understandable. Ban anyone from ever reforming another incarnation? Tell me how that serves anyone. It tastes more like spite than justice to me, but that is just my opinion based on observation. Mod=God, and there is zero recourse for challenging their edict. Hopefully, I'm at least free to resent a lament it.

[The Candy Lane]

I love when the sandcastle-kickers get dirt in their eyes. You guys were playing a different game, the punishment gives those players an opportunity to go play a different game without continuing to wreck this one.

In my short DEN stay, I've heard countless people bemoan DEN "ruining" the game, but the simple fact remains that it is untrue. There were simple ways to prevent being raided. 1) Active founder. 2) Non-exec delegate. If you region had neither, anyone in it could have founded one with a similar name and moved every active member to it. Natives always hate conquerors, but the smart ones learn to build walls. Totally destroying a region in perpetuity is far from a proportional response, even if raiding itself was the core issue, which it isn't, as I thought was perfectly clear.

Yes and in this thread we have countless raiders bemoaning the fact that they are 'getting picked on'. The simple fact remains that it is untrue. You aren't getting picked on - you chose to associate with an organization that was breaking the rules and now you are affected by the punishment. There were simple ways to avoid this. 1)have rule abiding leaders 2) use rule abiding tools. If your organization lacked both, anyone in it could have founded one with a similar purpose and moved every active member to it. Raiders hate rules and level playing fields, but apparently not as much as they hate punishment.

[Tsushima Yoshiko]

There was only the sound and fury, the crushing fist where a wagging finger was all that was warranted.

I understand your frustration, however the punishments were warranted.

Some of them were. Others were disproportionate as hell, and some of the people being punished didn't even do anything.

[Lockdownn]

so TBR decided to move to DEN so to evade that ban.

I don't think you know what actually happened. TBR was restricted from recruiting for 3 months and moved to DEN. They were, regardless of relocation, restricted from recruiting in any of their controlled regions until the ban was up.

[Talanis Collective]

Apart from this wall of text that I find difficult to decipher, it is such a shame that this has happened to you. But the script did contain the potential to cause harm to the game and devastate far more communities. Thus, it was a good thing that Predator is stopped.

Also, DEN was once TBR. You know what happened? They were banned from recruiting by TG, so TBR decided to move to DEN so to evade that ban. It is clear that much of the individuals in DEN are at least complicit in the culture of rules violation. Thus, the punishment was justified, since they had multiple chances in the past to stop.

I a little sad that one long paragraph is being called a "wall of text" that is hard to follow. While it could have used some formating that is difficult, perhaps impossible, on my current device, I felt it was passably eloquent and clear in meaning. I disagree with you, based on what I've read about predator, that it harmed anything or anyone. I It obviously broke rules, or we wouldn't be here right now, but at most it made choosing and holding targets a little easier. I fail to see how that hurt the admin side or player side in any real way. To your other point, I'll simply reiterate that, of those now suffering, only a small percentage actually did anything wrong. How many DEN members were ever in TBR? How many ran or even knew about predator? Whatever public condemnation I may face for expressing this opinion, I stand by it. This qas maximum overkill, and I am saddened by it, despite my short DEN tenure and lack of allegiance to larger raiderdom. I liked DEN. I liked its DENizens. This game is the lesser for its passing.

[Railana]

That said, it is a fait accompli. You can try to appeal all you want, but I feel the chances that you will get your region back are about as much as Jian Ghomeshi's reputation emerging unscathed after all of those allegations: essentially nil. I think that you should accept what has happened, and move on.

Somehow I doubt you'd be making this argument if it had been your region that the mods deleted.

[Talanis Collective]

In my short DEN stay, I've heard countless people bemoan DEN "ruining" the game, but the simple fact remains that it is untrue. There were simple ways to prevent being raided. 1) Active founder. 2) Non-exec delegate. If you region had neither, anyone in it could have founded one with a similar name and moved every active member to it. Natives always hate conquerors, but the smart ones learn to build walls. Totally destroying a region in perpetuity is far from a proportional response, even if raiding itself was the core issue, which it isn't, as I thought was perfectly clear.

Yes and in this thread we have countless raiders bemoaning the fact that they are 'getting picked on'. The simple fact remains that it is untrue. You aren't getting picked on - you chose to associate with an organization that was breaking the rules and now you are affected by the punishment. There were simple ways to avoid this. 1)have rule abiding leaders 2) use rule abiding tools. If your organization lacked both, anyone in it could have founded one with a similar purpose and moved every active member to it. Raiders hate rules and level playing fields, but apparently not as much as they hate punishment.

I suppose the hundreds of innocent members should have used their psychic powers to divine that there was rulebreaking going on? I never made any of the claims you leveled at me above, and I refuse to be your straw man. Your words are inflammatory and patently untrue, and I will not be drawn into a flame war. Good day.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Yes and in this thread we have countless raiders bemoaning the fact that they are 'getting picked on'. The simple fact remains that it is untrue. You aren't getting picked on - you chose to associate with an organization that was breaking the rules and now you are affected by the punishment. There were simple ways to avoid this. 1)have rule abiding leaders 2) use rule abiding tools. If your organization lacked both, anyone in it could have founded one with a similar purpose and moved every active member to it. Raiders hate rules and level playing fields, but apparently not as much as they hate punishment.

I suppose the hundreds of innocent members should have used their psychic powers to divine that there was rulebreaking going on? I never made any of the claims you leveled at me above, and I refuse to be your straw man. Your words are inflammatory and patently untrue, and I will not be drawn into a flame war. Good day.

If DEN had hundreds of members, I will eat every hat I own.

[Grenartia]

I love when the sandcastle-kickers get dirt in their eyes. You guys were playing a different game, the punishment gives those players an opportunity to go play a different game without continuing to wreck this one.

In my short DEN stay, I've heard countless people bemoan DEN "ruining" the game, but the simple fact remains that it is untrue. There were simple ways to prevent being raided. 1) Active founder. 2) Non-exec delegate. If you region had neither, anyone in it could have founded one with a similar name and moved every active member to it. Natives always hate conquerors, but the smart ones learn to build walls. Totally destroying a region in perpetuity is far from a proportional response, even if raiding itself was the core issue, which it isn't, as I thought was perfectly clear.

Except, you know, there's not always a similar name avaliable. There's also not always an easy way to move all the active members somewhere else, when there's no way to contact them all at once. Then there's the issue of the history of the region that was invaded being lost forever. At least with this current setup, natives finally have some measure of fucking justice, they can get their home regions back. All I hear from you is the same old tripe raiders constantly spout to shift responsibility away from themselves.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I suppose the hundreds of innocent members should have used their psychic powers to divine that there was rulebreaking going on? I never made any of the claims you leveled at me above, and I refuse to be your straw man. Your words are inflammatory and patently untrue, and I will not be drawn into a flame war. Good day.

If DEN had hundreds of members, I will eat every hat I own.

Not all by far of the ... IIRC about 1000 nation... in DEN were puppets. Puppets went to Nugut (pop about 1600, no reason to keep them in DEN). Don't underestimate how many pilers and new recruits DEN had. Remember, they maintained two simultaneous occupations with massive endo counts entirely within their own organization. Just counting pilers, I'd say theyprobably had 150-200. Add in updaters and people who failed to pile, and there were probably over 200 at any given time. If you're counting over time, as people came and went, that number only goes up. Someone in DEN could probably give you forum registration numbers as well.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

I understand your frustration, however the punishments were warranted.

Maybe, and I mean a thin maybe, for the actual rulebreakers. How was it warranted to harm the hundreds of players who never even knew what predator was by forever ending any incarnation of their region? Delete DEN, alright, it's not cool, but understandable. Ban anyone from ever reforming another incarnation? Tell me how that serves anyone. It tastes more like spite than justice to me, but that is just my opinion based on observation. Mod=God, and there is zero recourse for challenging their edict. Hopefully, I'm at least free to resent a lament it.

They don't prosecute people for having feelings. But raider laments about losing their regions ring juuuuuust a tiny bit hollow (not always, but often). Anyway, from what I gather here lenient and measured punishment was tried before and apparently failed spectacularly.

Punitive damages are most important for violations of the law that are hard to detect. (Source)

[G-Tech Corporation]

If DEN had hundreds of members, I will eat every hat I own.

Not all by far of the ... IIRC about 1000 nation... in DEN were puppets. Puppets went to Nugut (pop about 1600, no reason to keep them in DEN). Don't underestimate how many pilers and new recruits DEN had. Remember, they maintained two simultaneous occupations with massive endo counts entirely within their own organization. Just counting pilers, I'd say theyprobably had 150-200. Add in updaters and people who failed to pile, and there were probably over 200 at any given time. If you're counting over time, as people came and went, that number only goes up. Someone in DEN could probably give you forum registration numbers as well.

If memory serves, I recall two piles once hitting sixtyish each, with a full-court push. If we assume those poles were all DEN, eh, maybe you get over a hundred. But that's a tough call to credit though, given I'd presume many other orgs without an active operation were happy to pile there too. I'm not seeing two hundred though, let alone more.

[Talanis Collective]

In my short DEN stay, I've heard countless people bemoan DEN "ruining" the game, but the simple fact remains that it is untrue. There were simple ways to prevent being raided. 1) Active founder. 2) Non-exec delegate. If you region had neither, anyone in it could have founded one with a similar name and moved every active member to it. Natives always hate conquerors, but the smart ones learn to build walls. Totally destroying a region in perpetuity is far from a proportional response, even if raiding itself was the core issue, which it isn't, as I thought was perfectly clear.

Except, you know, there's not always a similar name avaliable. There's also not always an easy way to move all the active members somewhere else, when there's no way to contact them all at once. Then there's the issue of the history of the region that was invaded being lost forever. At least with this current setup, natives finally have some measure of fucking justice, they can get their home regions back. All I hear from you is the same old tripe raiders constantly spout to shift responsibility away from themselves.

I find that this is degenerating into a pro/ant raider argument, which was never my intent. For my part and that of the other non-leadership, I accept no blame because nothing blameworthy was done. Your views on raiders are apparently as poor as my view toward your rhetoric. You complain that protecting or refounding aren't easy and decry the destruction of their history, yet you care nothing for DEN's history or the literal impossibility of refounding with a similar name. What was taken legitimately through in-game mechanics from those conquered regions could always be reclaimed, especially if their community took even the most miniscule initiative at preservation. DEN's history, name, and community were annihilated by administration with no recourse. That is pure, unbiased truth, not conjecture. Perhaps to hypocrites and anti-raiding zealots, this seems an equal and just thing, but this loss is objectively more severe and permanent than any raid. Like I said, I have no strong tie to raiderdom. I liked DEN and its members. I will miss it, and I find the moderation action disproportionate to the offence. I have no more to say on the issue.

[Liberonscien]

These punishments are way too hard and its really showing how defender biased the moderation team is. People that had almost nothing to do with Predator or had stooped using predator was hit with main deletions and WA bans, regions with DEN in them that were not even controlled by this new version of DEN has been killed.This is all a big overreaction when people who have cheated and worked with DOS players has in the past got off easier. This has just confirmed what i have been thinking for a long time, the moderation team is so defender biased its not even funny.

This made me smile, because defenders say exactly the same thing about raider bias on the part of the mods. The smile comes because one good definition of compromise is that both sides are equally unhappy with the people in the middle. Do you suppose that the mods are actually doing a good job of walking that fine line if everybody thinks they lean towards the other side?

And for those of us, like me, that have no alignment, don't see the mods as having an alignment.