Illegal Script Usage "Predator": Punishments

[Sedgistan]

The 3 month bans (that weren't extended due to other violations) have been removed. If you had a nation in the WA at the time they were implemented, this would have been manually removed from the WA, and that specific nation may still be blocked. If that's the case, GHR us (referencing this post) and we'll remove that.

[WayNeacTia]

Texasa finally managed to submit a coherent appeal a few days ago; this has been granted - his WA ban has been removed, and his main nation can be restored.

Regarding removal of bans upon expiry, these will need to be done manually, and will be done at some point on the day following their expiry. Don't rely on them being removed the second they end.

I find this incredibly amusing. After reading through this quagmire I must ask, did you have any actual physical evidence to convict Texasa? I.P. records showing the so called circumvention of the API limits that apparently predator commits? Or were you just going on the good word of Tex that he was using Predator? Why was a coherent appeal required, when an apparent noncoherent confession was all that was required to convict? I am rather curious how far this was actually investigated before sentence was handed down.

On that note, after reading through this, I am also puzzled as to why only certain people were punished? Surely Everwandering Souls must have at least known of the existence of Predator. Given that The Black Riders and DEN both had operational alliance with The Black Hawks. What was Redbacks knowledge of it? Jakker? Mall for that matter? It just seems curious that Knot, Koth, and 94 Block were all punished while claiming they had no knowledge of the usage of Predator, yet not one person from The Black Hawks was touched?

I eagerly await some clarification on this.

[General Knot]

It just seems curious that Knot, Koth, and 94 Block were all punished while claiming they had no knowledge of the usage of Predator, yet not one person from The Black Hawks was touched?

You should do some more research before posting, CP.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

It just seems curious that Knot, Koth, and 94 Block were all punished while claiming they had no knowledge of the usage of Predator, yet not one person from The Black Hawks was touched?

You should do some more research before posting, CP.

Indeed. Former council member wetwork just got off a ban. Former member festavo is swerving a ban. Currently inactive and heavily demoted member chingis is serving a ban. Council member at the time of the ruling and now ex council member Kleo is serving a ban. Current council member Koth is serving a ban. Former members aurum and vandoosa just got off their ban. TBH was named in the statement. You're a wee bit off.

Red Back barely touches GP besides to take care of adminstrative stuff. In fact, the most active I've ever seen him was when this ruling came out and he wanted to know what the hell predator was, why TBH nearly got wiped out over it, and how we could stop anything like this from ever happening again (see: two formal statements on Predator in the TBH thread). Mall comes in to talk on rare occasion, but has not participated in anything raid-related since I've been a member of TBH, by my understanding preferring not to be involved as a game moderator. Jakker knew little to nothing about predator. Coe knew even less. The creator, distributors, and main users of predator were not TBH members, and while we (in hindsight foolishly) allowed members to use it, it was not endorsed or distributed by the region, access was not tied into our ranking system, and never where any of our members expected to use it to lead raids.

Now, I see you've brought my name up as well. Yes, I knew a bit about predator. Not that it was illegal, in fact that all evidence available to the users at the time pointed to it being perfectly legal. But, along with a select few others, held a certain disdain for it. Not just becuase it was a highly advanced tool and were ebul manual-preferring Luddites - but becuase even after a mod ruling saying that it was fine to use tools made by a DoS player so long as the tools were legal and player was not involved, it struck us as sketchy to be using a tool made by a player whose illegal actions already brought down one region. Perhaps we should have been firmer on that point, but we weren't - and we had no more idea that it was illegal than any other user. Nonetheless, when we first began to hear that it might be, we were among the first to assist the investigation. Now, I perhaps am among those that understand predator the best on a technical level, becuase I was part of the group that worked to find how it worked and assist the mods as such. I am intimately familiar with who's used it becuase I was given access to the logs in order to attempt to talk users into cooperation with moderation. I can go on, but I think I've said enough.

If you think I or anyone else has done something of worthy of moderation action, report it.

Otherwise, shove off.

[Evil Wolf]

Surely Everwandering Souls must have at least known of the existence of Predator. Given that The Black Riders and DEN both had operational alliance with The Black Hawks. What was Redbacks knowledge of it? Jakker? Mall for that matter?

That's some nice baseless speculation you got there. I like the added touch where you insinuate that a Moderator probably had advanced knowledge of either Predator and/or its illegal status, something that more than half the people using Predator were unaware of.

Got any reasoning or proof behind these loaded accusation or are you just firing blindly at TBH in the off chance you'll hit something?

[WayNeacTia]

Surely Everwandering Souls must have at least known of the existence of Predator. Given that The Black Riders and DEN both had operational alliance with The Black Hawks. What was Redbacks knowledge of it? Jakker? Mall for that matter?

That's some nice baseless speculation you got there. I like the added touch where you insinuate that a Moderator probably had advanced knowledge of either Predator and/or its illegal status, something that more than half the people using Predator were unaware of.

Got any reasoning or proof behind these loaded accusation or are you just firing blindly at TBH in the off chance you'll hit something?

Actually if you took the time to read my post I was only seeking clarification, not snark. I haven't speculated on anything I asked questions. Everwandering Souls was gracious enough to answer most of them before posting a rather snippy finale. If I have struck a raw nerve with someone here I apologize but given the level of snark, bellyaching and whining you have done in this thread I find your assertion that I am making baseless accusations and asking loaded questions to be amusing at best and hilariously hypocritical at worst. Perhaps I should have stuck to my original question about Texasa and in hindsight had I envisioned being mauled over simply asking a question I would have gone that route, or listened to my better judgement and avoided the forums all together. Do you care to answer my original question or does it not personally affect you enough to be bothered?

[Evil Wolf]

Do you care to answer my original question or does it not personally affect you enough to be bothered?

I, more than most, have expressed my disgust in this thread as to the manner of which Moderation conducted their investigation into Tex's claims before handing him a punishment, especially when it became immediately obvious that he was clueless as to what he was confessing to. While I appreciate Moderation's efforts in this thread to correct some of their mistakes, such as the deletion of my region and Tex's mistaken punishment, the matter remains that such mistakes should have never occurred in the first place, especially given the delicate and history making punishments that were handed out at the start of this thread.

I am disappointed that Moderation appears to not have handed a punishment out based upon evidence but merely upon a player's confession. Yes, it's true that if someone confesses to being a DOS player, as the example given in the thread goes, the Mods really have no other choice but to delete them, but this case with Predator is a bit different. Predator was an illegal script, but merely possessing it wasn't illegal, and the things Tex "confessed" to weren't illegal either. You can legally use scripts to make puppets, that's allowed. The Moderation seems to have only deleted Tex's puppet and added him to the list because they believed Predator was somehow involved, even though Predator supposedly doesn't create puppets at all and Tex (and for that matter the Moderation team) demonstrated an incredible amount of ignorance regarding what Predator actually does.

I can only imagine that there are several other players whom the Mods had no proof that those individuals used or possessed Predator who were also deleted based upon those confessions alone and with absolutely no other evidence. I of course hope this is not the case, but how they handled the matter with Tex makes me think otherwise. Given how harsh and groundbreaking this punishment was, I really, really hope that Moderation had some very good proof to justify all their punishments, and didn't just blanket punish a number of players who admitted to merely possessing Predator because they were scared by threats of even harsher punishments should they not confess. I mean, that's certainly what happened with Tex.

[Luziyca]

Texasa finally managed to submit a coherent appeal a few days ago; this has been granted - his WA ban has been removed, and his main nation can be restored.

Regarding removal of bans upon expiry, these will need to be done manually, and will be done at some point on the day following their expiry. Don't rely on them being removed the second they end.

Well, glad this issue is settled.

[Indo-Malaysia]

Is it still against the rules to call a region DEN, The Black Riders or Nugut?

[Benevolent Thomas]

Is it still against the rules to call a region DEN, The Black Riders or Nugut?

Why on earth would anyone want to tarnish their reputation by calling their region one of these names?

[Indo-Malaysia]

Is it still against the rules to call a region DEN, The Black Riders or Nugut?

Why on earth would anyone want to tarnish their reputation by calling their region one of these names?

Perhaps a *Nazgul Dentist would like to eat chicken nuggets.

*This sentence is a reference to all three of those regions

[Anerastreia]

Is it still against the rules to call a region DEN, The Black Riders or Nugut?

Of course it is. There is a permanent prohibition on those.

[Lyra and Bon Bon]

Is it still against the rules to call a region DEN, The Black Riders or Nugut?

Why on earth would anyone want to tarnish their reputation by calling their region one of these names?

Well Evil Wolf is still banging on about wanting his totally-not-affiliated-in-any-way-with-DEN region 'The DEN' back, so it does appear there are some that desperately want to use 'DEN' if it were allowed

[Ayvari]

Why on earth would anyone want to tarnish their reputation by calling their region one of these names?

Well Evil Wolf is still banging on about wanting his totally-not-affiliated-in-any-way-with-DEN region 'The DEN' back, so it does appear there are some that desperately want to use 'DEN' if it were allowed

Yeah, because it's his trophy. Evil Wolf isn't DEN and doesn't have their interests at heart.

[Guy]

Well Evil Wolf is still banging on about wanting his totally-not-affiliated-in-any-way-with-DEN region 'The DEN' back, so it does appear there are some that desperately want to use 'DEN' if it were allowed

Yeah, because it's his trophy. Evil Wolf isn't DEN and doesn't have their interests at heart.

It's his trophy because of the association with the name of the invader group DEN. Let's be honest here -- I'd be very much surprised if he didn't grab the region in the first place for that name, and that is likely what the region "The Den" will continue to be associated with.

Having said that, as long as it's not used in a similar fashion as the group DEN would have, I'm not terribly bothered by it.

[Indo-Malaysia]

Yeah, because it's his trophy. Evil Wolf isn't DEN and doesn't have their interests at heart.

It's his trophy because of the association with the name of the invader group DEN. Let's be honest here -- I'd be very much surprised if he didn't grab the region in the first place for that name, and that is likely what the region "The Den" will continue to be associated with.

Having said that, as long as it's not used in a similar fashion as the group DEN would have, I'm not terribly bothered by it.

A bit off-topic, but I still find this weird:

Powell created The Den as a military for a defender region (It was solar.. something, I forgot the name. Look on RaiderCon 16). A decade on, and its known as a 'massive' raiding organisation.

[Drop Your Pants]

A bit off-topic, but I still find this weird:

More like miles off topic.

[Eluvatar]

Also, as far as I know, incorrect. DEN formed from the exodus of members from Solarius after the bulk of the region's army and the government of the region came to disagree on military policy. (Sources: Ananke's NS Gameplay History, multiple quotes citing General Powell).

[Solorni]

Yeah, because it's his trophy. Evil Wolf isn't DEN and doesn't have their interests at heart.

It's his trophy because of the association with the name of the invader group DEN. Let's be honest here -- I'd be very much surprised if he didn't grab the region in the first place for that name, and that is likely what the region "The Den" will continue to be associated with.

Having said that, as long as it's not used in a similar fashion as the group DEN would have, I'm not terribly bothered by it.

Don't forget though that Evil Wolf runs a region of people pretending to be wolves for various purposes. So it is entirely possible he took the den on this basis.

[Xoriet]

It's his trophy because of the association with the name of the invader group DEN. Let's be honest here -- I'd be very much surprised if he didn't grab the region in the first place for that name, and that is likely what the region "The Den" will continue to be associated with.

Having said that, as long as it's not used in a similar fashion as the group DEN would have, I'm not terribly bothered by it.

Don't forget though that Evil Wolf runs a region of people pretending to be wolves for various purposes. So it is entirely possible he took the den on this basis.

I thought Evil Wolf was a little girl. His TNP statistics indicate this.

[Evil Wolf]

It's his trophy because of the association with the name of the invader group DEN. Let's be honest here -- I'd be very much surprised if he didn't grab the region in the first place for that name, and that is likely what the region "The Den" will continue to be associated with.

My motivations aren't really relevant to this ruling, seeing as I was not part of the Predator cheaters, nor has anyone claimed that The Den was part of DEN's sphere of influence since it came under my control, oh, about a half a decade ago. If anything, it's been a LWU region longer than it's been a DEN region.

Having said that, as long as it's not used in a similar fashion as the group DEN would have, I'm not terribly bothered by it.

Now, that's a curiously worded sentence, Guy. By that do you mean you'd not want it used as a successor region (which is illegal) or do you mean that you'd be very put off if someone started a non-DEN raider group in there?

May I remind you that, legally, there is nothing stopping me or LWU from doing just that so far as it is not a violation of the "non-successor" decree given at the start of this thread.

I thought Evil Wolf was a little girl.

Pfft, everybody knows that I'm a Japanese Schoolgirl who translates everything into English using Google and BabelFish. It's common knowledge, Xor.

[WayNeacTia]

I am still confused about all of this. The script was deemed illegal by a mod who ran it I am assuming? A mod with defender ties nonetheless? Punishments were carried out by another senior mod from a defender aligned region? How was the script ran by the mod in the first place? From what I have read it seems that it requires some password for access? Did that mod contact the creator of said script for access? Was said creator willing to grant access even though they are banned from the site? Does none of this even seem remotely suspicious to anyone?

[Ayvari]

I am still confused about all of this. The script was deemed illegal by a mod who ran it I am assuming? A mod with defender ties nonetheless? Punishments were carried out by another senior mod from a defender aligned region? How was the script ran by the mod in the first place? From what I have read it seems that it requires some password for access? Did that mod contact the creator of said script for access? Was said creator willing to grant access even though they are banned from the site? Does none of this even seem remotely suspicious to anyone?

I do not know what you read to come up with this. It may be the silliest interpretation of events yet.

- Script was created by Halcones.
- Script is inaccessible without Halcones' say-so.
- Script was used for a year and a half or so.
- Script raised concerns when people still used it after Halcones was DoS.
- Script was brought to the Mods.
- Script was deemed illegal by Mods/Admins.
- Script users were punished.

No Moderators were implicated in the investigation or reveal of the users of Predator.

[WayNeacTia]

I am still confused about all of this. The script was deemed illegal by a mod who ran it I am assuming? A mod with defender ties nonetheless? Punishments were carried out by another senior mod from a defender aligned region? How was the script ran by the mod in the first place? From what I have read it seems that it requires some password for access? Did that mod contact the creator of said script for access? Was said creator willing to grant access even though they are banned from the site? Does none of this even seem remotely suspicious to anyone?

I do not know what you read to come up with this. It may be the silliest interpretation of events yet.

- Script was created by Halcones.
- Script is inaccessible without Halcones' say-so.
- Script was used for a year and a half or so.
- Script raised concerns when people still used it after Halcones was DoS.
- Script was brought to the Mods.
- Script was deemed illegal by Mods/Admins.
- Script users were punished.

No Moderators were implicated in the investigation or reveal of the users of Predator.

Is Eluvatar not a mod? They claim the script violates the API rate and does not set a user agent. How would they have been able to figure this out without running the script first?

[Reploid Productions]

I do not know what you read to come up with this. It may be the silliest interpretation of events yet.

- Script was created by Halcones.
- Script is inaccessible without Halcones' say-so.
- Script was used for a year and a half or so.
- Script raised concerns when people still used it after Halcones was DoS.
- Script was brought to the Mods.
- Script was deemed illegal by Mods/Admins.
- Script users were punished.

No Moderators were implicated in the investigation or reveal of the users of Predator.

Is Eluvatar not a mod? They claim the script violates the API rate and does not set a user agent. How would they have been able to figure this out without running the script first?

Eluvatar is not a moderator. He's a techie. Biiiig difference.