People's Republic of Lazarus

[The United Colonies of Earth]

Well, good luck to you guys.
My region is (semi-)open to any exiles if they need a place to stay and plot their return.

[Yao]

Cormac, nothing illegal, by the PRL's standards, occurred here.

[Onderkelkia]

Let's establish what actually happened in 2013. First, Phoenix King Feux -- at the time acting under the legal authority of the Emerald Kingdom of Lazarus via Mandate 7, the constitution agreed to even by the later purged imperialists -- purged several imperialists from the region. Then, the People's Republic of Lazarus was established under Chairwoman Harmoneia. Again, the establishment of the PRL was done entirely in accordance with Mandate 7.

First, your claim that the NPO's purge was lawful is outright inaccurate. The Constitution required approval from at least 75% of the legislature for removing its members. 30% of the legislature was removed and prevented from voting by proposing the removals in bulk rather than by voting on each individually - under that process, you could propose removing any amount of people and have the remaining members remove them. Each removal should have required the requisite majority from the entirety of the legislature other than the member who was being voted on. What happened was illegal and undemocratic.

Second, to pretend that "King Feux" was acting on behalf of Lazarus, when AMOM announced his illegal actions beforehand, is to accept the NPO's lies. It is simply incredible. It requires you to suspend all disbelief despite knowing what we do about the NPO and its motivations in Lazarus, then and now.

Technically, neither of these were done by the NPO, though the purge -- which was separate from and preceded establishment of the PRL -- was very suspiciously announced by then-Senator AMOM in "The NPO's Retort." One can possibly make an argument that the purge was conducted by the NPO but one cannot make the argument that the PRL was established by the NPO.

The institutions of the Emerald Kingdom were corrupted by the purge.

The establishment of the PRL depended on the illegal removal of 30% of the Lazarus legislature. Having defenestrated a substantial portion of those who might have disagreed with them, naturally the NPO and those defenders supporting them (i.e. Harmoneia, et al.) were able to get their way subsequently.

So the purge and the establishment of the PRL were directly tied.

Moreover, doing the two separately was better for public relations purposes than doing them together (indeed, I recall AMOM highlighting Feux announcing he was standing down as delegate right after the purge as if that was some sort of 'gotcha' moment for the NPO, as if they had pulled some successful magic trick off). It was pure theatre, as Feux has now confessed. You are basically uncritically repeating the NPO's propaganda of the time. The fact that the NPO have now backed away from that propaganda, because it no longer serves their purposes, does not suddenly make what they said then any bit truer.

You describe the "NPO's Retort" as very suspicious. It was AMOM announcing a purge of Lazarus on behalf of the NPO, just as he announced the NLO now.

The PRL was established by the people of Lazarus, led by Chairwoman Harmoneia, who had already served as Delegate four times by that point and who had at that point been a Lazarene native for nearly a decade.

As the quotes which NES brought up above illustrate, Harmoneia was functioning as a useful idiot - knowingly or not - for the NPO. Doubtless Harmoneia's long-standing defender sympathies made her respond to the idea of removing "imperialists" on the grounds of creating drama - which DYP has just admitted was his motivation, as another long-standing Lazarus native, for getting rid of Griffin - more favourably than she otherwise would have been inclined to.

Griffin was a long-serving Lazarus delegate with multiple terms. Harmoneia was perfectly happy to support the NPO's action against her.

You will also note that, while somewhat dubious, there were better grounds for the purge of imperialists in 2013. NES had, in fact, discussed perpetrating the imperialists' own coup d'etat against Lazarus, a discussion that was revealed in "The NPO's Retort."

You accuse NES of promoting NPO propaganda, yet to defend the PRL you resort to the "NPO's Retort" - because that is what the PRL was built upon.

What evidence was there against Griffin? What evidence was there against Cerebella? What evidence was there against Apollo, who was banned for being a UIAF member (when he wasn't)? NES has contested the validity of the evidence against him but, in any case, how does that apply to other people?

The reason all these people were removed, rather than a proper debate on a single case, was because the whole thing was a sham to seize legislature.

Sorry, but no. This faux neutrality that you, NES, OnderKelkia, Balder, et al., are claiming has to be dealt with. What all of you are doing is providing rhetorical support to the NPO and its puppet regime, the NLO, by attempting to conflate the NLO with the PRL, and in so doing, attempting to undermine the legitimacy of the PRL. When the legitimacy of the PRL is undermined, when this thought is planted in people's minds that it is as rogue a regime as the NLO, the NLO can appear to be "eh, not so bad." That is what you, NES, Balder, et al., are doing here, and that is unquestionably a form of support -- and a dangerous and insidious form of it. That you are clever, or think you are, does not mean that you are neutral.

Neutrality is supporting neither side. Endorsing neither the NLO nor the PRL is therefore the essence of neutrality in this situation.

Unlike the defender world, which supported the NPO when it was on its side and now opposes the NPO when it turned against it, our position is genuine and coherent. The LKE has consistently made the very same arguments, outlined in this post, since 2013 - our position on what happened in 2013 is unaffected by the latest events. What we say is not some ruse designed to support the NPO; it is merely continuation of exactly what we were saying previously.

What you want us to do is change our beliefs because they are politically inconvenient for the PRL. I am not going to do that.

The People's Republic of Lazarus isn't legitimate - it was illegally created through a purge conducted and announced by the New Pacific Order. The fact that the PRL has now broken off following a disagreement into government-in-exile and the NLO does not somehow transform the PRL's legitimacy.

[Great Brigantia]

You can assert anything you like about the PRL Cormac, but the fact remains that it was established in the aftermath of an illegal and NPO orchestrated purge of a third of Lazarus' citizenry, and was so established by among others most of the figures now behind the NLO. It was and is an illegally established regime created by the NPO, and the fact that the NPO has now created a new and fully subservient puppet regime doesn't retroactively change the nature of the PRL remnant who the NPO decided to ditch.

Oh my [violet], Belschaft.

1. Those purged in 2013 were purged in accordance with Mandate 7, the constitution of Lazarus at the time.

2. The People's Republic of Lazarus was established in accordance with Mandate 7, the constitution of Lazarus at the time.

Address these points with something resembling a factual counterargument, or stop claiming that they were illegal. They weren't just illegal because Belschaft pronounces them so, they have to have actually been against the law.

Cormac, nothing illegal, by the PRL's standards, occurred here.

This claim, like Belschaft's claims, is fact-free.

• Section 7.1 of Mandate 8 states that "Section Two of this document may only be added to," Section Two being the rights of Lazarenes. It further mandates: "Section Seven of this document may not be edited or revised." In other words, the requirement that Section Two can only be added to and the requirement that Mandate 8 cannot be repealed can't be amended away.
• Section 7.2 of Mandate 8 clearly states that "[t]his document may not be repealed." By deleting Mandate 8 and replacing it with the rogue NLO, without legally amending Mandate 8, Stujenske violated Mandate 8.
• Section 2.1 of Mandate 8 permits the Chairman to remove Lazarenes, but mandates that Lazarenes have the right to appeal to the People's Court. By abolishing the People's Court, which is mandated to exist by Section Two, which can only be added to but not subtracted from, and by depriving Funkadelia and all Lazarenes purged of the right to appeal to the People's Court, Stujenske violated Mandate 8.
• Section 2.2 of Mandate 8 guarantees Lazarenes the right to a fair trial. By depriving Funkadelia (and all Lazarenes purged) of a fair trial, Stujenske violated Mandate 8.
• Section 2.3 of Mandate 8 permits Lazarenes to protest "as long as they are not violating the law." By purging Funkadelia for exercising his legal right to protest, a right which according to Section 7.1 could not be removed from Mandate 8, which also could not be repealed, Stujenske violated Mandate 8.

It's entirely possible, and probable, that Stujenske has violated Mandate 8 in numerous other ways, but this is more than enough to establish that his actions, which form the foundation of the NLO regime, were illegal. Even if you point to the Chairman's power to amend Mandate 8, he didn't make such amendments, he just announced the dissolution of constitutional institutions, the removal of Lazarenes from offices to which they were constitutionally elected, and the unconstitutional purge of Lazarenes without amendment to Mandate 8.

Moreover, were he to now offer an amended Mandate 8 with Sections Two and Seven intact, in an attempt to legitimize the NLO, it would be too late -- for while he has been carrying out his coup d'etat without amending Mandate 8, the People's Congress and a citizens' plebiscite has voted no confidence in him and he has been removed as Chairman of the People's Republic of Lazarus, which means he now lacks the power to legally amend Mandate 8. Even if somehow he did legally amend it -- which, again, I stress is not possible -- he would have to leave Sections Two and Seven intact, which means that Funkadelia and all Lazarenes purged would still be entitled to appeal to the People's Court and a fair trial, because those rights cannot be removed from Mandate 8, only added to.

In no sense is the NLO legal by the PRL's standards. Nothing Stujenske has done in the last ten days is legal by the PRL's standards.

I'll respond to Onder's points in a separate post. This one is long enough.

[Solorni]

Are we sure that Harmoneia was banjected and didn't just wander off and leave accidentally?

[Topid]

I appreciate that you wrote a smart little comment, then figured out a way to say it with more attitude so deleted the old one and reposted.

Classy as always.

[Lazarite Campinia]

Belschaft attempting to become Governor in a regime he considers illegitimate

[Toronina]

Belschaft attempting to become Governor in a regime he considers illegitimate

Sounds like he holds a grudge since he did not win it.

[Great Brigantia]

First, your claim that the NPO's purge was lawful is outright inaccurate. The Constitution required approval from at least 75% of the legislature for removing its members. 30% of the legislature was removed and prevented from voting by proposing the removals in bulk rather than by voting on each individually - under that process, you could propose removing any amount of people and have the remaining members remove them. Each removal should have required the requisite majority from the entirety of the legislature other than the member who was being voted on. What happened was illegal and undemocratic.

It doesn't sound like it was unambiguously illegal, depending on the wording of the clause(s) in question. Unfortunately, I can't find a copy of Mandate 7 that I can actually access, but if you can provide the wording that would be stellar. What I do know is that the argument that Feux's actions were legal was accepted by the vast majority of the interregional community, and your arguments against their legality have been rejected time and time again for two years.

Second, to pretend that "King Feux" was acting on behalf of Lazarus, when AMOM announced his illegal actions beforehand, is to accept the NPO's lies. It is simply incredible. It requires you to suspend all disbelief despite knowing what we do about the NPO and its motivations in Lazarus, then and now.

Nowhere have I said that Feux was acting on behalf of Lazarus. I have no doubt that he was acting on behalf of the NPO, then as now. If his actions were legal, though, it doesn't matter on whose behalf he was acting -- his actions, if legal, did not constitute a coup d'etat.

The establishment of the PRL depended on the illegal removal of 30% of the Lazarus legislature. Having defenestrated a substantial portion of those who might have disagreed with them, naturally the NPO and those defenders supporting them (i.e. Harmoneia, et al.) were able to get their way subsequently.

So the purge and the establishment of the PRL were directly tied.

First, Harmoneia is more than just some random defender supporting the NPO for foreign interests. Harmoneia is, as has by now been made clear, a decade-long native of Lazarus and has served as Delegate on five occasions. If you're going to actually accuse her of pursuing foreign interests to the detriment of Lazarus with a straight face, I would hate to play poker with you.

To address the rest of your argument, we first need to establish that the 2013 purge was unambiguously illegal. You have not done that.

Moreover, doing the two separately was better for public relations purposes than doing them together (indeed, I recall AMOM highlighting Feux announcing he was standing down as delegate right after the purge as if that was some sort of 'gotcha' moment for the NPO, as if they had pulled some successful magic trick off). It was pure theatre, as Feux has now confessed. You are basically uncritically repeating the NPO's propaganda of the time. The fact that the NPO have now backed away from that propaganda, because it no longer serves their purposes, does not suddenly make what they said then any bit truer.

You describe the "NPO's Retort" as very suspicious. It was AMOM announcing a purge of Lazarus on behalf of the NPO, just as he announced the NLO now.

I suspect all of that is basically true, but it is irrelevant to whether the events of 2013 constituted a coup d'etat. What is relevant here is whether the PRL is the legal, legitimate government of Lazarus, not what kind of image the NPO wanted to portray.

As the quotes which NES brought up above illustrate, Harmoneia was functioning as a useful idiot - knowingly or not - for the NPO. Doubtless Harmoneia's long-standing defender sympathies made her respond to the idea of removing "imperialists" on the grounds of creating drama - which DYP has just admitted was his motivation, as another long-standing Lazarus native, for getting rid of Griffin - more favourably than she otherwise would have been inclined to.

Griffin was a long-serving Lazarus delegate with multiple terms. Harmoneia was perfectly happy to support the NPO's action against her.

It's also entirely possible that Harmoneia, who as we've established is a longtime native of Lazarus and not some foreign defender agent as you're portraying her, thought she was doing what was best for Lazarus. Your "long-serving Lazarus delegate with multiple terms" also left Lazarus wallowing in inactivity in order to preserve a neutral ideology that benefited foreign interests, namely your interests and the interests of the user-created region in which Griffin was Founder and Kaiserin at the time, The New Inquisition. Then, when these interests seemed threatened, NES was having discussions that eventually found their way back to the NPO and Lazarus in which he raised the possibility of using Griffin as a lead in imperialists' own coup d'etat against Lazarus.

Please don't pretend that a native of Lazarus could not have reasonably come to the conclusion that removing NES and his imperialist cohort from the region was in the region's best interests.

Neutrality is supporting neither side. Endorsing neither the NLO nor the PRL is therefore the essence of neutrality in this situation.

Unlike the defender world, which supported the NPO when it was on its side and now opposes the NPO when it turned against it, our position is genuine and coherent. The LKE has consistently made the very same arguments, outlined in this post, since 2013 - our position on what happened in 2013 is unaffected by the latest events. What we say is not some ruse designed to support the NPO; it is merely continuation of exactly what we were saying previously.

What you want us to do is change our beliefs because they are politically inconvenient for the PRL. I am not going to do that.

The People's Republic of Lazarus isn't legitimate - it was illegally created through a purge conducted and announced by the New Pacific Order. The fact that the PRL has now broken off following a disagreement into government-in-exile and the NLO does not somehow transform the PRL's legitimacy.

Actually, no, Onder, I don't care if you change your beliefs -- though you should support the PRL, even quite apart from any arguments regarding legitimacy. Even if you don't regard the PRL as legitimate, its restoration is vital to creating the sovereign, liberal, democratic Lazarus that all of you claim to believe is the best course for Feeders and Sinkers. Such a Lazarus will not be created under any other circumstances. But because restoration of the PRL may also restore a defender Lazarus, and a Lazarus that is an FRA member region, you will not support the PRL's restoration, and you are demonstrating exactly how much you care about Feeder and Sinker sovereignty: Not at all, if a sovereign Feeder or Sinker chooses to also be a defender Feeder or Sinker.

Let me ask you this: When and if the NPO comes knocking in Balder or The West Pacific, what possible incentive will the rest of the world have to help you in liberating those regions, if you turn your backs on Lazarus now? You don't care about the sovereignty of our regions, why should we care about the sovereignty of yours? We can either stand together or we can fall apart. You are currently opting for the latter and it would be in your best interests and the best interests of your allies to reconsider.

In any event, I don't care if you change your beliefs. I would prefer that you be quiet, though. Neutrality is not claiming to support neither side but intentionally, vocally, and frequently doing everything you can to undermine one side to benefit the other. We all know that you, NES, Rachel, and Belschaft have not regarded the PRL as legitimate and we've known it since 2013. Repeating it daily and at any opportunity while the PRL's legitimacy is of importance to its success, and the perception that the PRL is not legitimate is vital to the NPO/NLO's success, is not at all neutral. If you want to actually be neutral, do those of us who aren't neutral and would like to see a sovereign, liberal, democratic Lazarus a favor, and kindly butt out.

[Venico]

I do not and will not support the illiberal, dictatorial and illegitimate Lazarene regime calling itself the New Lazarene Order. Neither do I support the illiberal, dictatorial and illegitimate former Lazarene regime calling itself the Peoples Republic of Lazarus. Both were formed via illegal purges of the regional population, removing elements of the citizenry who disagreed with the Delegate to allow the creation of a new regime tied politically and ideologically to the New Pacific Order. Both regimes were able to find willing stooges from the regional population to prop up their coup and act as apologists.

Sounds like someone who believes in the Fraternal Confederacy of Lazarus!

[Onderkelkia]

It doesn't sound like it was unambiguously illegal, depending on the wording of the clause(s) in question. Unfortunately, I can't find a copy of Mandate 7 that I can actually access, but if you can provide the wording that would be stellar.

Is this what your defence of the PRL's legitimacy comes to?

Whether or not a wording of a clause allowed someone to vote on removal of 30% of the legislature in a single motion, thereby consciously subverting the constitutional requirement for a 75% supermajority for removing members of the legislature?

Under that approach to the matter, one member could have proposed removing the rest and voted them all out. If NES had done that, would you defend it?

You think that process legitimate?

I do not myself have a copy of the constitution (and neither, as you say, do you, and you are the one who introduced the question of legality into this discussion in that state of ignorance, so it is perfectly reasonable to for me in turn to highlight that the legality of the action was disputed in relation to this point).

It seems very likely to me that, unless the clause was expressly worded to permit voting on removing an unspecified group of members together, the NPO removing 30% of the legislature in a purge was in breach of the requirement for a 75% supermajority for expelling members from the legislature. Regardless, this procedure was an attempt to manipulate the rules and undermined the integrity of the government of Lazarus. It's hardly legitimate.

What I do know is that the argument that Feux's actions were legal was accepted by the vast majority of the interregional community, and your arguments against their legality have been rejected time and time again for two years.

Your idea that "the vast majority of the interregional community" have ever put their minds to the this issue, regarding whether voting out members of the Lazarus legislture individually or in bulk was the constitutional procedure, is fanciful. Most people will have never have been aware of the issue.

First, Harmoneia is more than just some random defender supporting the NPO for foreign interests. Harmoneia is, as has by now been made clear, a decade-long native of Lazarus and has served as Delegate on five occasions. If you're going to actually accuse her of pursuing foreign interests to the detriment of Lazarus with a straight face, I would hate to play poker with you.

The NPO were perfectly happy to accuse Griffin of this, despite the fact she had been a member of Lazarus for more than half a decade and served multiple terms as delegate (including the longest period recorded in the in-game history). Moreover, Griffin always stridently defended the neutrality of Lazarus, whereas Harmoneia took it defender under the PRL. So despite Griffin's standing in this respect, you have by implication made allegations against her.

Harmoneia's actions at the time were in thrall to Feux and the NPO, despite what even you concede was the dubious character of their behaviour.

Like Harmoneia, DYP was similarly a long-serving Lazarus native. He has just admitted that he was perfectly happy to throw Griffin out for the drama:

Harmoneia and DYP were entirely happy to support the purge of long time Lazarus resident and former Delegate Victoria Griffin when she was purged.

It created drama. Drama is good. Gave us something to write about for a while.

We know that Feux performed the purge for the NPO. DYP has now confirmed what his motivation as a native of Lazarus was.

It is the defender world which clings to the fantasy that the purge was about removing foreign influence - because otherwise their foolishness is exposed.

To address the rest of your argument, we first need to establish that the 2013 purge was unambiguously illegal. You have not done that.

This statement is simply an attempt to shut down debate. Legality is not the only factor to the legitimacy of the regime. Insofar as the issue of legality goes, we do not have the wording of the clause (although you have claimed that it was legal without knowing that), but it is clear to me that (unless the clause was worded in a way that expressly allowed groups to be expelled by the vote of the remaining members, which seems unlikely to me), the way that the 75% super-majority requirement was subverted was illegal. It was in any case an indefensible farce perpetrated to legitimise the NPO's interference.

I suspect all of that is basically true, but it is irrelevant to whether the events of 2013 constituted a coup d'etat. What is relevant here is whether the PRL is the legal, legitimate government of Lazarus, not what kind of image the NPO wanted to portray.

The relevance is, if what I said was true, that the distance created between the purge and the creation of the PRL was a mirage for PR purposes. If the separation of these events was solely a matter of propaganda, then that means that the creation of the PRL is in turned tied to the NPO's purge.

Your attempt to distinguish these events rests on accepting the NPO's distortions and propaganda about there being no connection between those events.

In fact, the appearance of distance between the events, with Feux standing down as delegate, was, as you have just acknowledged, essentially contrived.

It's also entirely possible that Harmoneia, who as we've established is a longtime native of Lazarus and not some foreign defender agent as you're portraying her, thought she was doing what was best for Lazarus.

You are falling over yourself to offer Harmoneia the benefit of the doubt, while denying it to Griffin, despite the fact that no specific evidence was ever presented against Griffin. You portray Griffin in the context of her links to TNI - despite the fact that she never sought to make Lazarus an imperialist region. Why then are Harmoneia's long-standing links to the defender world somehow an irrelevancy, when Harmoneia actually made Lazarus defender?

This treatment is ludicrously inconsistent.

Your "long-serving Lazarus delegate with multiple terms" also left Lazarus wallowing in inactivity in order to preserve a neutral ideology that benefited foreign interests, namely your interests and the interests of the user-created region in which Griffin was Founder and Kaiserin at the time, The New Inquisition.

Griffin had no more responsibility for the inactivity than any other member of the Lazarus government, including those who subsequently persecuted her.

The idea that she was part of some plot to keep Lazarus "in inactivity in order to preserve a neutral ideology" is bizarre and unsubstantiated. Lazarus's inactivity was not a conspiracy: many GCRs have had substantial periods of inactivity without this being a result of some sort of plot. She was working to increase Lazarus activity. Now, she may not have been successful, but that is hardly grounds for purging her from the region as a traitor.

Please don't pretend that a native of Lazarus could not have reasonably come to the conclusion that removing NES and his imperialist cohort from the region was in the region's best interests.

If reason had anything to do with it, they would have been condemning Feux based on the conversation you yourself revealed before the NPO's Retort.

Yet the people you defend were more than happy to ignore that because it was politically inconvenient. Targeting imperialists was easier.

What "imperialist cohort"? Again, I refer to Apollo, who was removed on the mistaken belief he was in the UIAF when he was not. He simply wasn't part of either the NPO clique or the defender clique, so he was targeted. Likewise, you have failed to refer to any specific evidence on either Griffin or Cerebella.

Actually, no, Onder, I don't care if you change your beliefs -- though you should support the PRL, even quite apart from any arguments regarding legitimacy.

On the contrary, you are evidently frustrated that some Independent regions are refusing to change their beliefs to go along with your latest agenda.

Even if you don't regard the PRL as legitimate, its restoration is vital to creating the sovereign, liberal, democratic Lazarus that all of you claim to believe is the best course for Feeders and Sinkers. Such a Lazarus will not be created under any other circumstances.

Until the PRL comes to terms with the nature of its creation, there is no reason to believe it respects sovereignty, liberty or democracy.

The future of Lazarus will not be served by endorsing the continuation of the PRL, a creation of the NPO which transformed Lazarus from a neutral democratic monarchy to a Communist defender dictatorship.

Furthermore, as a practical vehicle, the PRL is of little value because it is unlikely to be successful in retaking the region. It's just an illegitimate regime; the values which you claim to promote are undermined by lending any credibility to it. It does not deserve any degree of recognition - and never did.

But because restoration of the PRL may also restore a defender Lazarus, and a Lazarus that is an FRA member region, you will not support the PRL's restoration, and you are demonstrating exactly how much you care about Feeder and Sinker sovereignty: Not at all, if a sovereign Feeder or Sinker chooses to also be a defender Feeder or Sinker.

Lazarus never chose to be defender. It was turned into a defender region following an NPO coup and purge in September 2013.

That is an outrage, not something to be protected.

Let me ask you this: When and if the NPO comes knocking in Balder or The West Pacific, what possible incentive will the rest of the world have to help you in liberating those regions, if you turn your backs on Lazarus now? You don't care about the
sovereignty of our regions, why should we care about the sovereignty of yours? We can either stand together or we can fall apart. You are currently opting for the latter and it would be in your best interests and the best interests of your allies to reconsider.

This from someone who threatened to coup Balder, Osiris, TWP and TNP a couple of months ago, for their connections with Albion, LKE and TNI.

It is pretty obvious that your concerns are promoting Defender interests; they're nothing to do with any of these high-minded principles you spout.

The reason why the NPO was a threat in Lazarus is because Feux won the delegate election, and under the PRL, ended up as forum root administrator. Placed in that position, any organisation or entity can be a threat. Denying the truth about the PRL does nothing to stop the NPO elsewhere.

In any event, I don't care if you change your beliefs. I would prefer that you be quiet, though. Neutrality is not claiming to support neither side but intentionally, vocally, and frequently doing everything you can to undermine one side to benefit the other. We all know that you, NES, Rachel, and Belschaft have not regarded the PRL as legitimate and we've known it since 2013. Repeating it daily and at any opportunity while the PRL's legitimacy is of importance to its success, and the perception that the PRL is not legitimate is vital to the NPO/NLO's success, is not at all neutral. If you want to actually be neutral, do those of us who aren't neutral and would like to see a sovereign, liberal, democratic Lazarus a favor, and kindly butt out.

The notion that the PRL was legitimate is offensive. The idea that it has anything to do with a "sovereign, liberal, democratic Lazarus" is fiction.

I challenged the PRL's legitimacy whenever it was in contention prior to the latest coup. The latest coup does not change the PRL's nature.

[Great Brigantia]

As usual, you've finally posted something too long for me to bother responding to. Congratulations, Onder.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

As usual, you've finally posted something too long for me to bother responding to. Congratulations, Onder.

Naught without labor!

[Glen-Rhodes]

Looks like the NPO found a new Senator of Propaganda and Senator of "Intelligence". Congrats Bel and NES!!!

[Belschaft]

I'm not sure how much clearer I can state my opposition to the NLO. We seem to be in the strange situation where anything short of endorsing the PRL is considered aiding the NPO and it'a puppet government.

If the PRL wanted my help I might be willing to provide it, as it's the only actual resistance however flawed and illegitimate it may be. However it doesn't desire any help from me, and I feel no pressing desire to insert myself into a conflict between two illegitimate regimes on my own accord.

The PRL will have to live with their own mistakes; alas, Lazarus also has to.

[Yao]

Cormac, nothing illegal, by the PRL's standards, occurred here.

This claim, like Belschaft's claims, is fact-free.


It's entirely possible, and probable, that Stujenske has violated Mandate 8 in numerous other ways, but this is more than enough to establish that his actions, which form the foundation of the NLO regime, were illegal. Even if you point to the Chairman's power to amend Mandate 8, he didn't make such amendments, he just announced the dissolution of constitutional institutions, the removal of Lazarenes from offices to which they were constitutionally elected, and the unconstitutional purge of Lazarenes without amendment to Mandate 8.

Moreover, were he to now offer an amended Mandate 8 with Sections Two and Seven intact, in an attempt to legitimize the NLO, it would be too late -- for while he has been carrying out his coup d'etat without amending Mandate 8, the People's Congress and a citizens' plebiscite has voted no confidence in him and he has been removed as Chairman of the People's Republic of Lazarus, which means he now lacks the power to legally amend Mandate 8. Even if somehow he did legally amend it -- which, again, I stress is not possible -- he would have to leave Sections Two and Seven intact, which means that Funkadelia and all Lazarenes purged would still be entitled to appeal to the People's Court and a fair trial, because those rights cannot be removed from Mandate 8, only added to.

In no sense is the NLO legal by the PRL's standards. Nothing Stujenske has done in the last ten days is legal by the PRL's standards.

I'll respond to Onder's points in a separate post. This one is long enough.

The post of mine suggesting that the PRL is illegal you responded to is lifted word-to-word from one of your statements. God bless 'ya.

[Todd McCloud]

Are we sure that Harmoneia was banjected and didn't just wander off and leave accidentally?

Yeah, it's reflected in her nation's dossier

[Onderkelkia]

As usual, you've finally posted something too long for me to bother responding to. Congratulations, Onder.

I responded to each of your arguments in turn. The size of each response is roughly appropriate to the section of text it was responding to (in a couple of cases it's shorter). Therefore, the fact that my response is a significant amount of text reflects the number of points which you made in your previous post.

[Fatdul]

As it seems relevant to the discussion, I have braved the "Chairman wants you logged in" javascript of the old Emerald Kingdom / PRL forums to find a copy of Mandate 7:

Mandate 7
The Constitution of Lazarus

Preamble

Recognizing the inherent responsibility of authority in Lazarus, we lay forth the following government to be known as The Lazarus Mandate, along with such policies that will ensure efficient management and orientation of those nations that find themselves amongst the community of Lazarus, reborn or immigrant.

The Delegate

The Delegate serves as the sovereign of the region and as such, holds sole power regarding regional affairs. The Delegate, however, can delegate such power to others. On the first week of March, the Emerald Council will elect a member to the office of Delegate. Election periods will be a nine-day period that is to be held starting in the first week of March. Three days will be devoted to nominations and campaigning. The following three will be devoted to more campaigning and platform presentations and the final three will be dedicated to voting. At any point more than two months after the election or re-election of the Delegate, the Delegate seat may be challenged. A challenge must be seconded by two other Council members for it to be recognized and the election period to start. Upon the resignation or absence of the Delegate from the forums or Nationstates site for more than 7 days, their nominated successor shall become the Delegate and assume all their powers and responsibilities.

The Emerald Cabinet

At his or her sole discretion, the Delegate may create any Cabinet Office and appoint any citizen to it. The Delegate must nominate a successor whom will be a member of the Cabinet, at the start of their term. All appointments made by the Delegate must be confirmed by a simple majority vote of the Council. Delegation of power to said office is to the extent that the Delegate deems appropriate. Offices may create subordinate positions within their authority, and with the approval of the Delegate, may entrust powers to the subordinate positions and nominate members to fulfill the duties allocated to them.

The Emerald Council

To become a citizen of Lazarus one must complete an application form satisfying the requirements set by the Delegate whom may then grant or reject it. Only nations that have held citizenship in Lazarus for over 30 days are entitled to apply to the Emerald Council. An application is made to the Council in their forum area where they may ask questions of the applicant, especially regarding their past record and future ambitions. After the applicant receives two nominations from existing Council members an admission vote is initiated. This requires a simple majority support of the Council for the application to be approved. The Council retains the right to expel members from the Council and/or region by a 75% vote. Council members have the right to propose any Motion, Law or Mandate amendment they desire, except Treaties which must be proposed by the Delegate, and they all require a 75% vote. All votes without specified time limits last a maximum of a week. Abstentions and absences are not counted as participating voters.

The Emerald Nobility

The Delegate will be recognized as the head of the Emerald Family and King|Queen of the region under their own custom title. The Delegate may bestow special titles of nobility to citizens that are found deserving of special recognition for service to Lazarus. The Emerald Family shall consist of the current Delegate and any members that have been recognized as Delegate in the past. All Lazarene citizens will be recognized with Baronetcy. This is not to suggest that titles are reserved exclusively for Lazarenes. Nobility ranking will consist of the following though special titles may be granted to members by the Delegate not labeled below:

• Baron/Baroness
• Viscount/Viscountess
• Earl/Countess
• Marquess/Marchioness
• Duke/Duchess

In the event that the sitting Delegate, past Delegates, or members with titles of nobility are expelled from the region for misconduct, they will no longer be recognized as a member of the royal family and or have all titles of nobility removed.

The Emerald Legion

The Emerald Legion shall be the official military of Lazarus. It shall be overseen by the Delegate and consist of volunteer conscripts from amongst the native forum members.

If the Delegate so chooses, he/she may appoint one general, to be known as General of the Emerald Legion, who shall be responsible for assisting in missions, the creation of and changes to regulations, and recruiting for the Emerald Legion. In order to be considered for the position of General of the Emerald Legion, a nation must be part of the Emerald Council.

Members of the Emerald Legion are obligated to endorse the Delegate whenever their World Assembly nation is present in Lazarus, in order to keep the delegacy secure.

This of course includes the relevant wording:

The Council retains the right to expel members from the Council and/or region by a 75% vote.

The follow-up question would be who were the members of the Emerald Council prior to the vote and who was expelled.

[Onderkelkia]

As it seems relevant to the discussion, I have braved the "Chairman wants you logged in" javascript of the old Emerald Kingdom / PRL forums to find a copy of Mandate 7:

[...]

This of course includes the relevant wording:

The Council retains the right to expel members from the Council and/or region by a 75% vote.

The follow-up question would be who were the members of the Emerald Council prior to the vote and who was expelled.

Thank you for providing this.

My understanding is that the members who were expelled constituted at least 30% of the Council.

On that clause, there is no basis on which any of them could have been legally excluded from voting on the matter.

[Gerzam]

As usual, you've finally posted something too long for me to bother responding to. Congratulations, Onder.

Onder has made fair points thus far and has taken the time to address your arguments point by point, which is a courtesy far too often denied by many when one makes a long argument opposing their stances. There is nothing obligating you to respond, of course, but I find it rather odd that you would not address a substantial response to your claims if defending the PRL's legitimacy is indeed so crucial to seeing that most elusive democratic and free Lazarus which you claim to support come into being.

[Fatdul]

As it seems relevant to the discussion, I have braved the "Chairman wants you logged in" javascript of the old Emerald Kingdom / PRL forums to find a copy of Mandate 7:

[...]

This of course includes the relevant wording:


The follow-up question would be who were the members of the Emerald Council prior to the vote and who was expelled.

Thank you for providing this.

My understanding is that the members who were expelled constituted at least 30% of the Council.

On that clause, there is no basis on which any of them could have been legally excluded from voting on the matter.

I ask who were members of the Council and who were expelled because the Council did not consist of all citizens. Entry to the Emerald Council appears to have been fairly restricted, actually.

[Funkadelia]

I think I need to clear a lot of misconceptions that people have about the People's Republic. I am sure that even after I post this, a few posters are still going to take their lies and half truths as absolute facts, but it seems that many people are unaware of the circumstances, and the plan for Lazarus' future.

I know it sounds corny or whatever, but I'm writing this from the bottom of my heart. It's painful to admit, but it needs to be done.

In the wake of this coup and the occupation of Lazarus by the New Pacific Order, it has caused most of us Lazarenes to look in hindsight at what happened during the People's Republic. I am willing to admit, with shame, that I was manipulated by the NPO to do what they wanted. I can say that I resisted some of their overt attempts to dictate my policy while I was Chairman, but some members of the NPO feigned friendship with me in order to manipulate me, my opinions, and the actions of the Lazarene government. I am not in a position to speak on behalf of Harmoneia, but I imagine that she was also manipulated by NPO members, especially Milograd. Milograd is very good at making himself look good, but, as we have seen now over the past four years or so, his intentions are always for his own and/or for the NPO's benefit. Today, Milograd gloats about how we and defenders in general were naive. I don't think it's wrong to trust, I think it's wrong to obtain it in order to abuse it.

At the same time, however, I feel very guilty for allowing the NPO subvert the sovereignty of Lazarus. I will recognize that many have warned of this in the past, but from my perspective, I was led to believe that members such as Feux and Stujenske (those who actually stuck around, unlike Milograd) were truly Lazarenes, and simply members of both The Pacific and Lazarus. Feux especially had put significant amounts of time into the region, and he and I (or so I had thought) were friends, so I genuinely believed that he had the best intentions for the region. Why would I not believe that? Again, I understand that from the point of view of someone who I have been at odds with in the past that it was obvious that Feux, Milograd, et. al. were not exactly on the up and up. However, from the point of view of most Lazarenes, these members invested great efforts into making Lazarus a better and stronger region. It is clear to us all now that this was a carefully thought out and executed plan to claim the region as their personal trinket. I apologize to everyone, especially the natives of Lazarus, for allowing myself to be blinded enough to not realize the reality of the situation.

When the region is returned to native control, there are extensive plans to strengthen democratic institutions in the region. Over the past couple of weeks, People's Congressman Gulliver and I have been drafting a new constitution for Lazarus. It will be a demoratic government with an elected Delegate, Vice Delegate, and Speaker of the legislature. The legislature will also vote on who will become the equivalent of the "endorsees," to ensure nonpartisan high endorsement, high influence nations are always in the region in case something like this should happen again. There will also be an independent court system.

I have tried to be totally forthcoming and honest in writing this post, and I hope that this clears up some concerns about the direction of the People's Republic.

[Onderkelkia]

Thank you for providing this.

My understanding is that the members who were expelled constituted at least 30% of the Council.

On that clause, there is no basis on which any of them could have been legally excluded from voting on the matter.

I ask who were members of the Council and who were expelled because the Council did not consist of all citizens. Entry to the Emerald Council appears to have been fairly restricted, actually.

Indeed, I'm aware that it did not consist of all citizens and had a restrictive entry process, but those who were ejected - including Griffin, NES and Cerebella - were council members. I don't myself have the exact list of all members of the council at the time of the purge (as I was not a member of the council or Lazarus at all, whereas NES or Griffin may have more details), but my understanding is that those ejected were 30% of the membership.

[Unibot III]

Belschaft attempting to become Governor in a regime he considers illegitimate

Oh dear Campinia, legitimacy has hardly ever been a precondition for Belschaft.