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Capitalism or Socialism: Which is better?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Capitalism or Socialism or Mixed?

Capitalism
305
30%
Socialism
285
28%
Mixed-Economy
417
41%
 
Total votes : 1007

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Caelestius
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Capitalism or Socialism: Which is better?

Postby Caelestius » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:44 pm

I have read many articles, opinions and threads regarding this topic over the years. Many like to paint ideal economies (among many other topics) in stark Black or White terms rather then the "shades of gray" they truly are. I wont go in-depth, but what I gather about both systems (broadly):

Capitalism:
Pros: Diverse product selection and wide range of services, ability to climb the socioeconomic ladder, promotes technological improvement, gives consumers more control over market
Cons: Lower-classes fall through cracks (homelessness), depletion of world's resources at alarming rate, promotes materialism and profit over human life

Socialism:
Pros: No social/economic inequality, everyone acquires their share of goods/services (no falling through cracks)
Cons: Economy tends to stagnate, less product/service choices, no ability to rise up economic ladder and achieve financial independence

Mixed:
Best of both worlds?

America could be considered a mixed economy, having a large welfare system while benefiting from a diverse capitalistic system where one can rise or fall on their own merits. Is the U.S. an ideal model for the "best" economic system?

I would like to hear from YOU (NationStates) on what you prefer through votes and responses.
I'm not a driven businessman, but a driven artist. I never think about money. Beautiful things make money.
- Lord Acton

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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:48 pm

I prefer a mixed economy, but very strongly leaning to capitalist.

National defense and law creation/enforcement shouldn't be left completely to private individuals, imo.
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Glorious Homeland
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Postby Glorious Homeland » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:52 pm

Caelestius wrote:America could be considered a mixed economy, having a large welfare system while benefiting from a diverse capitalistic system where one can rise or fall on their own merits. Is the U.S. an ideal model for the "best" economic system?

Lol no, The USA is the furthest from a mixed economy of its western peers. Germany is probably the best mixed economy out there. The USA is behind the west in terms of education, income inequality, welfare and what have you. The UK is just... shit these days. France is basically an enormous quasi-public companies and large number of multinationals that are defended as if they were the personification of the French president himself, Japan is messed up economically and sociologically, and Australia is sitting pretty and hard to translate with its abundance of natural resources.

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Caelestius
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Postby Caelestius » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:56 pm

Glorious Homeland wrote:
Caelestius wrote:America could be considered a mixed economy, having a large welfare system while benefiting from a diverse capitalistic system where one can rise or fall on their own merits. Is the U.S. an ideal model for the "best" economic system?

Lol no, The USA is the furthest from a mixed economy of its western peers. Germany is probably the best mixed economy out there. The USA is behind the west in terms of education, income inequality, welfare and what have you. The UK is just... shit these days. France is basically an enormous quasi-public companies and large number of multinationals that are defended as if they were the personification of the French president himself, Japan is messed up economically and sociologically, and Australia is sitting pretty and hard to translate with its abundance of natural resources.


So you believe that Germany has the best model economical speaking, even better then the U.S. superpower?
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Panzerjaeger
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Postby Panzerjaeger » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:57 pm

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Josh Sinister
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Postby Josh Sinister » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:58 pm

Mixed Economy, of course. However, I'm uber capitalist when it comes to everything.

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Conserative Morality
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Postby Conserative Morality » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:59 pm

State Capitalism.
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Molytopiat
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Postby Molytopiat » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:05 pm

Caelestius wrote:
Glorious Homeland wrote:Lol no, The USA is the furthest from a mixed economy of its western peers. Germany is probably the best mixed economy out there. The USA is behind the west in terms of education, income inequality, welfare and what have you. The UK is just... shit these days. France is basically an enormous quasi-public companies and large number of multinationals that are defended as if they were the personification of the French president himself, Japan is messed up economically and sociologically, and Australia is sitting pretty and hard to translate with its abundance of natural resources.


So you believe that Germany has the best model economical speaking, even better then the U.S. superpower?

Patriotism is great and all, but you should step back and take a good look at your economy. Dont let the way you feel about your country effect your logical thinking.

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South Norwega
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Postby South Norwega » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:07 pm

Caelestius wrote:
Glorious Homeland wrote:Lol no, The USA is the furthest from a mixed economy of its western peers. Germany is probably the best mixed economy out there. The USA is behind the west in terms of education, income inequality, welfare and what have you. The UK is just... shit these days. France is basically an enormous quasi-public companies and large number of multinationals that are defended as if they were the personification of the French president himself, Japan is messed up economically and sociologically, and Australia is sitting pretty and hard to translate with its abundance of natural resources.


So you believe that Germany has the best model economical speaking, even better then the U.S. superpower?

Well the US certainly doesn't, as shown recently.

Germany is interesting, in that the crap Eurozone countries have driven down interest rates and its now charging along. Maybe this was their plan all along?
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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:07 pm

Molytopiat wrote:
Caelestius wrote:
So you believe that Germany has the best model economical speaking, even better then the U.S. superpower?

Patriotism is great and all, but you should step back and take a good look at your economy. Dont let the way you feel about your country effect your logical thinking.

Our economy is still better than Germany's, imo. We just have shitty employment numbers.
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Caelestius
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Postby Caelestius » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:17 pm

Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Molytopiat wrote:Patriotism is great and all, but you should step back and take a good look at your economy. Dont let the way you feel about your country effect your logical thinking.

Our economy is still better than Germany's, imo. We just have shitty employment numbers.


When you say "we", I assume you mean the U.S.

I agree that U.S. has a better economy, we are the number one wealthiest country in the world so we must be doing something right.
I'm not a driven businessman, but a driven artist. I never think about money. Beautiful things make money.
- Lord Acton

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Gothic Space Empire
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Postby Gothic Space Empire » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:19 pm

This is two questions really. One could have a welfare system while having everything else run by corporations.

I'm a pragmatist. I think the benefit of businesses comes from their competition, so in any area where competition is not possible, things should be managed by a different type of organisation.

Providing welfare is simply a way of ensuring people can eat, get medical treatment, etc. Even if virtually everything in a country is run by businesses, that's still no excuse for letting people suffer.

Actually, a third aspect of this is the strictness of the rules a business must abide by - I believe that business rules should be strict, but they should also be simple - otherwise it would make it difficult for small businesses that can't afford as much money for lawyers.

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New Genoa
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Postby New Genoa » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:20 pm

Caelestius wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:Our economy is still better than Germany's, imo. We just have shitty employment numbers.


When you say "we", I assume you mean the U.S.

I agree that U.S. has a better economy, we are the number one wealthiest country in the world so we must be doing something right.


Yes, we still have an empire, whereas the Germans really do not. ;)
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Rolling squid
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Postby Rolling squid » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:23 pm

If we could keep capitalism from turning into corporatism, it would be great. Since we can't, we're better off using either socalism or a mixed market economy with centralized election funding and heavy restrictions on lobbying.
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Caelestius
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Postby Caelestius » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:27 pm

Gothic Space Empire wrote:This is two questions really. One could have a welfare system while having everything else run by corporations.

I'm a pragmatist. I think the benefit of businesses comes from their competition, so in any area where competition is not possible, things should be managed by a different type of organisation.

Providing welfare is simply a way of ensuring people can eat, get medical treatment, etc. Even if virtually everything in a country is run by businesses, that's still no excuse for letting people suffer.

Actually, a third aspect of this is the strictness of the rules a business must abide by - I believe that business rules should be strict, but they should also be simple - otherwise it would make it difficult for small businesses that can't afford as much money for lawyers.


So you believe in a regulated, capitalist economy where major corporations have to play by the rules so the little guy (small businesses) have a fair chance. I agree, as it seems most logical in our day and age.

I also believe we should have some sort of welfare system. The question is: Should taxpayers be forced to contribute to it or should it be upheld by private donations?

Also, does the existence of a welfare system, no matter how well-intentioned, contribute to apathy and laziness?

Yes, we still have an empire, whereas the Germans really do not. ;)


Exactly! Germany is relatively small compared to some of the REAL superpowers out there (including America).
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- Lord Acton

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The Deleted Chris
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Postby The Deleted Chris » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:27 pm

Capitalism tempered by government to prevent monopolies and maintain a competitive market.

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Occupied Deutschland
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Postby Occupied Deutschland » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:28 pm

It depends on how far to either side you swing. If your capitalism here means the free market is in charge of providing everything including police (ala an-cap) then No. But if it's a mixed economy up to the point where the government supplies Law & Order, Jurisprudence and National Defence...Hells to the yeah!
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New Manvir
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Postby New Manvir » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:36 pm

Stalinism. No justification is necessary, unless you'd like to visit a gulag.

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Socialism is an economic system characterised by social ownership of the means of production and co-operative management of the economy. "Social ownership" may refer to cooperative enterprises, common ownership, state ownership, citizen ownership of equity, or any combination of these. There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them. They differ in the type of social ownership they advocate, the degree to which they rely on markets or planning, how management is to be organised within productive institutions, and the role of the state in constructing socialism.

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Gothic Space Empire
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Postby Gothic Space Empire » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:45 pm

Caelestius wrote:Also, does the existence of a welfare system, no matter how well-intentioned, contribute to apathy and laziness?

I don't think so. Some lazy people might try to take advantage, but it didn't make them lazy. Apathy is an attitude problem. If people see jobs as nothing but a way to get money, and only minimum wage jobs are available to them, they don't have much incentive. If jobs were instead seen as a means to be a valued member of a happy society, it'd be a lot more appealing.

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Servantium
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Postby Servantium » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:49 pm

The Deleted Chris wrote:Capitalism tempered by government to prevent monopolies and maintain a competitive market.

Oppressive monopolies wouldn't exist in a pure capitalist society.

Anyways, Capitalism is the best system because it's the only one that doesn't involve initiation of force to function.

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The Deleted Chris
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Postby The Deleted Chris » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:55 pm

Servantium wrote:
The Deleted Chris wrote:Capitalism tempered by government to prevent monopolies and maintain a competitive market.

Oppressive monopolies wouldn't exist in a pure capitalist society.

Anyways, Capitalism is the best system because it's the only one that doesn't involve initiation of force to function.


Yes, but since I live in the real world, I see no reason to accept libertarian utopias any more than I would socialist.

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Caelestius
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Postby Caelestius » Wed Dec 08, 2010 5:58 pm

Gothic Space Empire wrote:
Caelestius wrote:Also, does the existence of a welfare system, no matter how well-intentioned, contribute to apathy and laziness?

I don't think so. Some lazy people might try to take advantage, but it didn't make them lazy. Apathy is an attitude problem. If people see jobs as nothing but a way to get money, and only minimum wage jobs are available to them, they don't have much incentive. If jobs were instead seen as a means to be a valued member of a happy society, it'd be a lot more appealing.


How would you get them to view jobs in such a way? Alot of people would prefer not working to survive, especially if they get government hand-outs. Wouldn't it take some sort of propaganda to convince people they should love their jobs, even the low-income, minimum wage ones?
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Maurepas
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Postby Maurepas » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:00 pm

Mixed Economy, Capitalism is great, but there needs to be regulation to keep the playing field level so that things like these:
http://www.cracked.com/article_18845_6- ... _multiline

Shouldn't exist, and for social programs to help people who end up getting the short end of it.

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Servantium
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Postby Servantium » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:05 pm

The Deleted Chris wrote:
Servantium wrote:Oppressive monopolies wouldn't exist in a pure capitalist society.

Anyways, Capitalism is the best system because it's the only one that doesn't involve initiation of force to function.

Yes, but since I live in the real world, I see no reason to accept libertarian utopias any more than I would socialist.

Who said anything about utopia? I'm pretty sure I didn't. I'm not saying that monopolies won't happen, I'm saying that oppressive monopolies CAN'T happen in a capitalist system.

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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:07 pm

Lackadaisical2 wrote:I prefer a mixed economy, but very strongly leaning to capitalist.

National defense and law creation/enforcement shouldn't be left completely to private individuals, imo.


This.

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