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Controversy over Netflix's "African Queens" docuseries

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Controversy over Netflix's "African Queens" docuseries

Postby Old Tyrannia » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:03 pm

The terminally online amongst us will no doubt already be familiar with the brewing controversy over the second season of Netflix's "African Queens," a "documentary series" telling the stories of... Well, African queens. The first series featured the story of 17th century Ambundu monarch Queen Nzinga and her war of resistance against the Portuguese colonial empire. The second focuses on the famed Cleopatra VII Philopator, the final ruler of the Hellenistic Ptolemaic dynasty and the last person to rule Egypt as pharaoh prior to its incorporation into the Roman Empire. So why has the show suddenly been subject to so much controversy? That's pretty simple: a black British actress, Adele James, has been casted as Cleopatra herself, despite the famous queen being a member of the ethnically Greek Ptolemaic dynasty, descended from Alexander the Great's general, Ptolemy I Soter, who established himself as ruler of Egypt amidst the disintegration of the Macedonian Empire after Alexander's death. This has drawn the ire of Egyptians and, to a lesser extent, Greeks, who perceive the casting choice as a "blackwashing" of their own history.
The BBC wrote:A Netflix docudrama series that depicts Queen Cleopatra VII as a black African has sparked controversy in Egypt.

A lawyer has filed a complaint that accuses African Queens: Queen Cleopatra of violating media laws and aiming to "erase the Egyptian identity".

A top archaeologist insisted Cleopatra was "light-skinned, not black".

But the producer said "her heritage is highly debated" and the actress playing her told critics: "If you don't like the casting, don't watch the show."

Adele James made the comment in a Twitter post featuring screengrabs of abusive comments that included racist slurs.

Cleopatra was born in the Egyptian city of Alexandria in 69 BC and became the last queen of a Greek-speaking dynasty founded by Alexander the Great's Macedonian general Ptolemy.

She succeeded her father Ptolemy XII in 51 BC and ruled until her death in 30 BC. Afterwards, Egypt fell under Roman domination.

The identity of Cleopatra's mother is not known, and historians say it is possible that she, or any other female ancestor, was an indigenous Egyptian or from elsewhere in Africa.

Netflix's companion website Tudum reported in February that the choice to cast Adele James, a British actress who is of mixed race, as Cleopatra in its new documentary series was "a nod to the centuries-long conversation about the ruler's race".

Jada Pinkett Smith, the American actress who was executive producer and narrator, was meanwhile quoted as saying: "We don't often get to see or hear stories about black queens, and that was really important for me, as well as for my daughter, and just for my community to be able to know those stories because there are tons of them!"

But when the trailer was released last week many Egyptians condemned the depiction of Cleopatra.

Zahi Hawass, a prominent Egyptologist and former antiquities minister, told the al-Masry al-Youm newspaper: "This is completely fake. Cleopatra was Greek, meaning that she was light-skinned, not black."

Mr Hawass said the only rulers of Egypt known to have been black were the Kushite kings of the 25th Dynasty (747-656 BC).

"Netflix is trying to provoke confusion by spreading false and deceptive facts that the origin of the Egyptian civilisation is black," he added and called on Egyptians to take a stand against the streaming giant.

On Sunday, lawyer Mahmoud al-Semary filed a complaint with the public prosecutor demanding that he take "the necessary legal measures" and block access to Netflix's services in Egypt.

He alleged that the series included visual material and content that violated Egypt's media laws and accused Netflix of trying to "promote the Afrocentric thinking... which includes slogans and writings aimed at distorting and erasing the Egyptian identity".

Three years ago, plans for a movie about Cleopatra starring the Israeli actress Gal Gadot triggered a heated debate on social media, with some people insisting that the role should instead go to an Arab or African actress.

Gadot subsequently defended the casting decision, saying: "We were looking for a Macedonian actress that could fit Cleopatra. She wasn't there, and I was very passionate about Cleopatra."

Source

Casting controversies revolving around actors' race are not a novelty in the current political climate. For years, ethnic minority groups have been underrepresented in film and TV in the US and other Western nations, and efforts to reverse this in recent decades have led to debates over the casting of ethnic minority, and especially black, actors in roles that some believed should have been reserved for white people. There is, of course, significant nuance to this debate- a person might have no particular issue with the casting of Halle Bailey as Ariel in Disney's live-action "The Little Mermaid" remake, or the casting of Samuel L. Jackson as Nick Fury in the Marvel cinematic franchise, despite both characters being depicted as Caucasian in appearance in the respective source materials, but still take issue with the race-and-gender-swapping of historical Norse leader Haakon Ericsson in Netflix's series "Vikings: Valhalla." The case with "African Queens," however, may be a little more complicated than those prior examples.

Tina Gharavi, the series' director, wrote an article yesterday in "Variety" defending the show against criticism:
Variety wrote:Last summer, I was living in Venice Beach and had decided, due to a friend’s persistence, to visit a fortune teller. Me, ever the sceptic but game for a laugh, agreed to go along. What the fortune teller said made me roll my eyes: “I am not saying you are Cleopatra but somehow you share her story and are connected.”

Less than a month later, I got a call from a production company making Jada Pinkett Smith’s “African Queens” and was subsequently hired to direct four episodes of a drama-documentary on the life of the controversial leader. The joke was on me.

I remember as a kid seeing Elizabeth Taylor play Cleopatra. I was captivated, but even then, I felt the image was not right. Was her skin really that white? With this new production, could I find the answers about Cleopatra’s heritage and release her from the stranglehold that Hollywood had placed on her image?

Born in Iran, I am a Persian, and Cleopatra’s heritage has been attributed at one time or another to the Greeks, the Macedonians and the Persians. The known facts are that her Macedonian Greek family — the Ptolemaic lineage — intermarried with West Asian’s Seleucid dynasty and had been in Egypt for 300 years. Cleopatra was eight generations away from these Ptolemaic ancestors, making the chance of her being white somewhat unlikely. After 300 years, surely, we can safely say Cleopatra was Egyptian. She was no more Greek or Macedonian than Rita Wilson or Jennifer Aniston. Both are one generation from Greece.

Doing the research, I realized what a political act it would be to see Cleopatra portrayed by a Black actress. For me, the idea that people had gotten it so incredibly wrong before — historically, from Theda Bara to Monica Bellucci, and recently, with Angelina Jolie and Gal Gadot in the running to play her — meant we had to get it even more right. The hunt was on to find the right performer to bring Cleopatra into the 21st century.

Why shouldn’t Cleopatra be a melanated sister? And why do some people need Cleopatra to be white? Her proximity to whiteness seems to give her value, and for some Egyptians it seems to really matter.

After much hang-wringing and countless auditions, we found in Adele James an actor who could convey not only Cleopatra’s beauty, but also her strength. What the historians can confirm is that it is more likely that Cleopatra looked like Adele than Elizabeth Taylor ever did.

As production got nearer, I realized the magnitude and political nature of this job. It was important to get things right, but also to find a way of telling the story with humanism and nuance: The last thing we needed was another Cleopatra divorced from her womanhood and her power only sexualized. The HBO series “Rome” portrayed one of the most intelligent, sophisticated and powerful women in the world as a sleazy, dissipated drug addict, yet Egypt didn’t seem to mind. Where was the outrage then? But portraying her as Black? Well.

Perhaps, it’s not just that I’ve directed a series that portrays Cleopatra as Black, but that I have asked Egyptians to see themselves as Africans, and they are furious at me for that. I am okay with this.

While shooting, I became the target of a huge online hate campaign. Egyptians accused me of “blackwashing” and “stealing” their history. Some threatened to ruin my career — which I wanted to tell them was laughable. I was ruining it very well for myself, thank you very much! No amount of reasoning or reminders that Arab invasions had not yet happened in Cleopatra’s age seemed to stem the tide of ridiculous comments. Amir in his bedroom in Cairo wrote to me to earnestly appeal that “Cleopatra was Greek!” Oh, Lawd! Why would that be a good thing to you, Amir? You’re Egyptian.

So, was Cleopatra Black? We don’t know for sure, but we can be certain she wasn’t white like Elizabeth Taylor. We need to have a conversation with ourselves about our colorism, and the internalized white supremacy that Hollywood has indoctrinated us with.

Most of all, we need to realize that Cleopatra’s story is less about her than it is about who we are.

It’s almost as if we don’t realize that misogynoir still has an effect on us today. We need to liberate our imaginations, and boldly create a world in which we can explore our historical figures without fearing the complexity that comes with their depiction. I am proud to stand with “Queen Cleopatra” — a re-imagined Cleopatra — and with the team that made this. We re-imagined a world over 2,000 years ago where once there was an exceptional woman who ruled. I would like to draw a direct line from her to the women in Egypt who rose up in the Arab uprisings, and to my Persian sisters who are today rebelling against a brutal regime. Never before has it been more important to have women leaders: white or Black.

Source

Gharavi's response actually highlights some of the reasons why the casting in "African Queens" may actually be a more concerning sign than the other examples of race-casting controversies that I brought up previously. The first thing that should be highlighted is that "African Queens" is being presented as a documentary, or at least, a "docudrama." That means that it purports to be informative, and should therefore be held to a higher standard with regards to historical accuracy than a series or film explicitly marketed as entertainment only. This is the first issue that arises with Gharavi's comparison between her new series and the 1963 classic "Cleopatra," which featured white British-American actress Elizabeth Taylor as the titular character. The second is, of course, that Taylor's "Cleopatra" was released in the 1960s, an entirely different social era in which concerns about white actors playing ethnic minority roles were yet to gain mainstream traction. The big reason many people angered by Netflix's new documentary weren't angry about "Cleopatra" when it was released may well be that they weren't alive at that time.

The third issue is that contrary to Gharavi's assertions in her "Variety" article, Cleopatra may well have looked more like Elizabeth Taylor than Adele James. Cleopatra was, as mentioned above, a member of the ethnically Greek Ptolemaic dynasty. The latter was infamously endogamous, which is a nice way of saying that they were big on incest. The wider Greek population in Ptolemaic Egypt, who formed a semi-formal ruling caste above the majority of indigenous ethnic Egyptians, were also largely endogamous and generally married amongst themselves, remaining culturally and socially removed from the Egyptian population. Gharavi also notes that Cleopatra had ancestors from the "West Asian" Seleucid dynasty, which was actually another Hellenistic Greek dynasty descended from another of Alexander's generals, Seleucus I Nicator. In other words, from what we know Cleopatra was probably primarily ethnically Greek, with some Persian ancestry through the Seleucids. Whilst Greeks are generally not as light-skinned as Elizabeth Taylor, they are undoubtedly European and one would be unlikely to mistake a Greek for a sub-Saharan African. There is an element of uncertainty, however, in that Cleopatra's mother's identity is unknown; this makes it at least possible that she was "black," i.e. of recent sub-Saharan African ancestry. That would be a longshot, though- and despite Gharavi's assertions, from what we know of the self-image of the Hellenistic monarchs, Cleopatra's family would very much have identified themselves as "Greek," though perhaps not entirely to the exclusion of being "Egyptian" in some sense as well.

There are plenty of little historical misconceptions scattered throughout Gharavi's article. The real meat of the issue, though, is alluded to in the following part of Gharavi's article: "While shooting, I became the target of a huge online hate campaign. Egyptians accused me of “blackwashing” and “stealing” their history. Some threatened to ruin my career — which I wanted to tell them was laughable. I was ruining it very well for myself, thank you very much! No amount of reasoning or reminders that Arab invasions had not yet happened in Cleopatra’s age seemed to stem the tide of ridiculous comments."

Here is why I find this documentary so concerning as to be worthy of an NSG thread. It would be one thing if the documentary simply cast a mixed-race actress as Cleopatra because a suitable Egyptian or Greek actress was unavailable, or deliberately pursued a "race-blind" approach to casting. But from what I've seen about this documentary, it seems to be explicitly making the case that not only was Cleopatra actually "black," but so were the ancient Egyptians as a people- as Gharavi indicates with her line about the Arab invasions "not having happened yet." This is in line with an Afrocentrist revisionist version of history in which the ancient Egyptians were a black sub-Saharan African people, who were exterminated or assimilated by the invading Arabs from the 7th century onwards. In this version of history, modern Egyptians are largely the descendants of the Arab "invaders," and therefore "imposters." In reality genetic studies using material from ancient Egyptian mummies have generally shown that the Egyptians of today are, genetically speaking, more or less the same people as the Egyptians who built the pyramids- indeed, it seems that modern Egyptians generally have more sub-Saharan African gene markers than their ancient counterparts, suggesting that the greater part of the sub-Saharan African heritage of modern Egypt was introduced after the pharaonic age had ended. The material evidence in the form of ancient Egyptian art corroborates this, as the Egyptians typically present themselves as darker in coloration than the Greeks to the north, and lighter than the Nubian people of the Kingdom of Kush to the south.

Of course, in reality Egypt was not perfectly homogenous, and it's likely that then, as now, there was an element of the Egyptian population who could have passed as sub-Saharan African- particularly in Upper Egypt, where there was likely intermixture with the Nubian population to the south. Likewise, Lower Egyptians would likely have a greater proportion of Near Eastern ancestry given their proximity to the Levant, and some may have been quite fair. Famously, Pharaoh Ramesses II is believed to have had red hair. But Egypt was not some lost black civilisation. Gharavi complains about "Amir in his bedroom in Cairo," but Amir might have good reason to feel angry. The Afrocentrist narrative that Gharavi's documentary is pushing essentially appropriates his people's history whilst accusing them of being imposters with no true claim to the legacy of their ancestors. It's similar to racially motivated theories by colonial era Europeans that the African metropolis of Great Zimbabwe must have been built by non-Africans, or anti-Semitic conspiracy theories that Ashkenazi Jews are in fact imposters descended from the Turkic Khazars rather than the ancient Hebrews. There is a significant difference in that those "theories" were developed by socially dominant groups to maintain their ideology of superiority, whilst the Afrocentrist narrative about ancient Egypt instead emerged from the desire of a historically marginalised and oppressed people to associate themselves with a recognisable and glorious history as a form of self-affirmation; but regardless of motivation, the Afrocentric narrative is inescapably a distortion of history driven by politics and racism. Ancient Egypt is the heritage of everyone, but it is also particularly the heritage of the Egyptian people, and it is morally unacceptable for another group to attempt to appropriate that history.

So what we are left with is a situation where a major streaming platform with over 230 million subscribers worldwide as of January this year is now producing documentaries that seem to be promoting racist conspiracy theories. To me, this is both hard to believe and extremely worrying.
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Postby Northern Seleucia » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:05 pm

It's netflix, not surprised. Still wrong, but hardly surprising
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Postby Big Bad Blue » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:07 pm

Of course we all recall the outrage from Egypt when Yul Brynner was cast as Pharaoh in The Ten Commandments. Not. So now they're melting like snowflakes because a Black actress is cast as Cleopatra? Fuck 'em.

As for the white supremacist authoritarians who are no doubt behind this whole manufactured controversy as they are behind Black Disney princesses, they think Jesus was Caucasian and spoke English so fuck 'em too.
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Hamilton was fine because it was meant as an art piece, not as a documentary.
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Postby San Marlindo » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:22 pm

Netflix execs are audiences are mostly made up of Americans, who - generally speaking - cannot find Egypt on a map of Africa, much less regurgitate any info about the nuances of its history. The execs are probably the ones who pushed this casting decision through.
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Postby Saterun » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:23 pm

Even though Cleopatra's father was Greek, mystery still surounds her mother's side. So we really don't know exactly which genetics Cleopatra had, and so can't make a final judgment on what her skin color was.
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Postby San Marlindo » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:23 pm

Big Bad Blue wrote:As for the white supremacist authoritarians who are no doubt behind this whole manufactured controversy as they are behind Black Disney princesses, they think Jesus was Caucasian and spoke English so fuck 'em too.


[citation needed]
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:40 pm

Interesting. Haven’t seen the term “black washing” applied before…well that I can remember at the moment.

The problem the director violated was making a documentary. Implies truth.

Was Cleopatra black or lightly black? Doubtful. IIRC the Ptolemy’s didn’t marry outside that much if at all. There is even a claim her mother was though inbreeding.

I think much of the claims are by the Afrocentric author John Henrick Clarke who I believe was behind the claims of King Tut was really black. I didn’t believe that as I remember seeing a fresco somewhere showing a tanish Tut fighting Nubians.

I think they found some paintings in Pompeii of Cleopatra and she had the Greek look going.

Anyway; as mentioned documentaries? Docuseries? Yes there should be an effort for the portrayal of people.

Movies? People need to get over themselves. It’s a performance. OMFG Ariel is black!!! Blah blah blah. All that should matter is her singing and acting.
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Postby Nilokeras » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:40 pm

This kind of terminally online outrage always amuses me because it's so incredibly selective. Casting posh English people as Romans or any number of fudges/historical inaccuracies goes more or less uncommented on - like the show portraying the Ptolemaic court as being very 'Egyptian' - but the minute someone darker than oatmeal gets cast in something it becomes worth writing ten paragraph OPs about.

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Postby Old Tyrannia » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:46 pm

Nilokeras wrote:This kind of terminally online outrage always amuses me because it's so incredibly selective. Casting posh English people as Romans or any number of fudges/historical inaccuracies goes more or less uncommented on - like the show portraying the Ptolemaic court as being very 'Egyptian' - but the minute someone darker than oatmeal gets cast in something it becomes worth writing ten paragraph OPs about.

At least I am capable of writing ten paragraph OPs. You are apparently not even able to read one.
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Postby Technoscience Leftwing » Sat Apr 22, 2023 12:55 pm

A familiar phenomenon. In 1937, the film "Treasure Island" was created in the USSR. However, Stalin demanded an ideological component from the films, and therefore the plot of Stevensonhad to be greatly changed: instead of the son of the owner of the hotel, the daughter acts there (protection of women's rights!), And instead of profit, the organizers of the expedition aim to help the Irish rebels (protection of national minorities and national self-determination, revolutionary motives ).

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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:01 pm

If it wasn't cast as a documentary that explicitly is pushing Afrocentrist nonsense this would be a non-issue, but the fact that it is doing that is deeply insulting to both Greeks and Egyptians. The latter especially because Afrocentrists routinely try to erase and co-opt their history in some hilariously racist ways.
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:04 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:If it wasn't cast as a documentary that explicitly is pushing Afrocentrist nonsense this would be a non-issue, but the fact that it is doing that is deeply insulting to both Greeks and Egyptians. The latter especially because Afrocentrists routinely try to erase and co-opt their history in some hilariously racist ways.

I agree.
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Postby The Archregimancy » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:05 pm

I really don't know if I have the energy to reply to this.

That's not a criticism of OT as OP; just that I'm worn down by my attempts to address this issue over the last few weeks on other platforms. God knows that we seem to have far more experts in Egyptology (and specifically Ptolemaic Egypt), genetics, and the Diadochi mysteriously appearing across the English-speaking North Atlantic than I'd ever imagined possible. And I'm writing that as someone who copyedited most of the Ptolemaic Egypt interpretive display texts at the new Grand Egyptian Museum.


Saterun wrote:Even though Cleopatra's father was Greek


Not necessarily. Ptolemy XII Auletes was certainly Hellenistic, and certainly spoke Classical Greek, but 'Hellenistic' and 'Greek' are not identical cognates in this time period. We know that Ptolemy XII's father was Ptolemy IX, but we have absolutely no clue who his mother was, and several - though not all - of the contemporary and near-contemporary sources state that he was an illegitimate son of his father. We can state with a reasonable degree of certainty that Ptolemy XII wasn't a sub-Saharan African, but we can't say with certainty that he was 'Greek' as we understand the term today; he was six or seven generations (depending on which line of a frequently incestuous family tree we count down) removed from Ptolemy I, the founder of the Ptolemaic Egyptian state.

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Postby The Grand Fifth Imperium » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:05 pm

was the "top archaeologist" referred to in the BBC article Dr. Zahi Hawass, by any chance?
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Postby Nilokeras » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:16 pm

Old Tyrannia wrote:
Nilokeras wrote:This kind of terminally online outrage always amuses me because it's so incredibly selective. Casting posh English people as Romans or any number of fudges/historical inaccuracies goes more or less uncommented on - like the show portraying the Ptolemaic court as being very 'Egyptian' - but the minute someone darker than oatmeal gets cast in something it becomes worth writing ten paragraph OPs about.

At least I am capable of writing ten paragraph OPs. You are apparently not even able to read one.


I read the OP. I wasn't particularly impressed by the one sentence embedded in the middle that waffles about Cleopatra's family's self-perception, in the midst of a lot of stuff about race.

Like, put it this way - would there be a controversy still if they kept the casting exactly the same, but depicted the Ptolemaic court as culturally Greek?

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Postby Tyskeland » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:20 pm

Just because you don’t make a actor in a shot black doesn’t mean a company is Racist, I wish people knew this. I don’t give a care in the world if Cleopatra was Black or White, I just want to watch a show.
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The Kaisers News - German-Russian joint military drills will occur in the Baltic Sea - Kaiser Thomas Schürer returns from his week long diplomatic trip to Washington DC, securing steel and military trade deals with the United States - 2023 BRIGS meeting to be held in London next week

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Northern Seleucia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5326
Founded: Aug 29, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Northern Seleucia » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:22 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:If it wasn't cast as a documentary that explicitly is pushing Afrocentrist nonsense this would be a non-issue, but the fact that it is doing that is deeply insulting to both Greeks and Egyptians. The latter especially because Afrocentrists routinely try to erase and co-opt their history in some hilariously racist ways.

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Mtwara
Diplomat
 
Posts: 612
Founded: Aug 31, 2014
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Mtwara » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:27 pm

The way the world's going I'm surprised that Cleopatra wasn't portrayed by a man.

But seriously, I feel like the name "African Queens" implies sub-Saharan African women, and I would expect it to cover history that most people are unaware of. 99% of people must already know who Cleopatra is and making the second series about her instead of somebody else sounds cheap and lazy to begin with.
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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58536
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:37 pm

Nilokeras wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:At least I am capable of writing ten paragraph OPs. You are apparently not even able to read one.


I read the OP. I wasn't particularly impressed by the one sentence embedded in the middle that waffles about Cleopatra's family's self-perception, in the midst of a lot of stuff about race.

Like, put it this way - would there be a controversy still if they kept the casting exactly the same, but depicted the Ptolemaic court as culturally Greek?


The controversy is around the afrocentrist gobbledegook about Egypt being black prior to the Arab invasions, which is peddled by African American far-right groups. It's also noteworthy that blackwashing north africans especially should indeed be viewed as controversial because of the existence and prevalence of that ideology.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Old Tyrannia
Game Moderator
 
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Founded: Aug 11, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Old Tyrannia » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:39 pm

Nilokeras wrote:
Old Tyrannia wrote:At least I am capable of writing ten paragraph OPs. You are apparently not even able to read one.


I read the OP. I wasn't particularly impressed by the one sentence embedded in the middle that waffles about Cleopatra's family's self-perception, in the midst of a lot of stuff about race.

Like, put it this way - would there be a controversy still if they kept the casting exactly the same, but depicted the Ptolemaic court as culturally Greek?

The depiction of the Ptolemaic court isn't especially relevant to the core issue I'm trying to raise here. Would it be more historically accurate to depict Cleopatra as a Hellenistic monarch and her court as predominantly Greek in culture? Probably, but the conflation of Ptolemaic Egypt with other parts of ancient Egyptian history is run-of-the-mill bad history, which would illicit an eyeroll from me and little else. Racist pseudohistory creeping its way into mainstream culture is much more concerning.
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Cannot think of a name
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45100
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Cannot think of a name » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:40 pm

The Archregimancy wrote: God knows that we seem to have far more experts in Egyptology (and specifically Ptolemaic Egypt), genetics, and the Diadochi mysteriously appearing across the English-speaking North Atlantic than I'd ever imagined possible.

Sort of like how there were suddenly a ton of experts on the West African slave trade and the Dahomey tribe when The Woman King came out. Most of them really upset that the film didn't accurately portray their eventual colonization by the french...70 some years after the movie was set that depicted their war with the Oyo people.

I suspect like now opportunistic people of a certain type are grabbing and running problems noted by scholars of the actual subjects and then drowning out said scholars.

I am not a scholar and this is the first I've heard of this so my opinion one way or another is kind of worthless so I approach like every other time 'the internet' is super mad about a black person being cast...'eh.'
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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 58536
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:44 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:
I suspect like now opportunistic people of a certain type are grabbing and running problems noted by scholars of the actual subjects and then drowning out said scholars.


So long as we're talking about selective criticism, this one makes me crack a smile. How many people who waffle about culture issues in general have a PHD you reckon? turnabout is fair play to some extent and if you really, really want to make it so only professors should be heard on the topic, I can guarantee you the "certain types" you're complaining about would take that deal in a heartbeat to shut the masses of progressives up once and for all.

Or, we can accept that its a fairly normal and not sinister thing for people to parrot this kind of shit to discuss it. I think Arch's comment is fair because if people argue with *him* about it, it's a little ridiculous and they should just give way because if he's actually egregiously wrong, his peers will turn up soon enough to call him out. But otherwise, it's just the way of things.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Stone Age Electricians
Envoy
 
Posts: 223
Founded: Apr 14, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Stone Age Electricians » Sat Apr 22, 2023 1:54 pm

My thoughts on the matter don't matter, neither does any of the above or below.
ONLY COMPLIANCE with the New Woke Order matters.

No opinion but Woke opinion ! Hooray ! I'm so happy for finally realising I'm a male, and a white, chauvinistic colonist pig for that matter !
Please, please make me gay and black and trans !

Cancel EVERYTHING in art and history and language that does fit the New Woke Version of reality!

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