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[R] Holocaust Denial?

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Czervenika
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[R] Holocaust Denial?

Postby Czervenika » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:33 pm

Is Holocaust denial a reportable offense here? I know Pro-Nazi views are and I feel like that would fit here. If so, Ansarullah made some comments:
Ansarullah wrote:
Yes, which is why he invaded other countries and set up extermination camps in said countries. Of course...

Invaded? You mean defended himself? He didn't declare war on Britain or France. He wanted German lands back from Poland, and that was it.
Oh, and I find the camps part funny. I'll try to put it this way; you don't believe Jews were behind Germany losing WW1 and you most likely think Hitler made that up as an excuse to gain power. If that's the case, why would he fall for his own lie? If the Holocaust actually happened, it alone could have cost Germany the war given the amount of resources you'd need to pour into those camps to massacare 6 million+ people. That doesn't make much sense.


Ansarullah wrote:
That's the thing, from his perspective it wasn't a lie. There was a very serious element in the right wing of German politics that actually wholeheartedly believed Jews caused the German Empire to fall and lose the war, as silly as that is. Hitler was part of that group, he didn't invent it, it was already coming into form before the war was even fully over.

Is that why I see Jews use the "tell a lie enough and people will believe it" quote all the time? You don't say that about something you genuinely believe in.


This is from the Islamic Discussion thread.
Last edited by Czervenika on Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ansarullah
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Postby Ansarullah » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:34 pm

You're allowed to hold any view you want. Unless I said something like "we need another Holocaust even though the first one didn't happen" or "Kill all Jews", then that'd be reportable.
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Untecna
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Postby Untecna » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:38 pm

Ansarullah wrote:You're allowed to hold any view you want. Unless I said something like "we need another Holocaust even though the first one didn't happen" or "Kill all Jews", then that'd be reportable.

Its still a very bad thing to say and I'm quite sure its not tolerated here on NS.
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Ansarullah
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Postby Ansarullah » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:40 pm

Its still a very bad thing to say and I'm quite sure its not tolerated here on NS.

I couldn't care less what you think of my views or of me. Find me the rule that says I can't deny the Holocaust in the way I did and I'll delete everything I said or take any punishment that comes my way from a mod.
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Czervenika
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Postby Czervenika » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:40 pm

Please just let the mods deal with this as they see fit.
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Untecna
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Postby Untecna » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:42 pm

Ansarullah wrote:
The thing is Hitler really believed in his reality, which to non-Nazis is actually a lie. I won't say anything more. Holocaust is a settled fact.

Why fall for your own lie? You can call Hitler a methhead or insane all you want, but he wasn't stupid.

This might add in, I'm not sure.
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Czervenika
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Postby Czervenika » Mon Sep 27, 2021 6:54 pm

Another one:

Ansarullah wrote:
Can we just remember the Holocaust didn't just kill the jews? Different groups of people were killed in these proven killing factories. From Slavs to homosexuals, Romani peoples, to Soviet POWs.

"Holocaust" refers to Jews most of the time. Romanis I can't say but that was probably made up too (or exaggerated at minimum). Homosexuals.....well, I'm an Islamist, it doesn't take much to guess what I think of that.
POWs, that doesn't matter; it's war. Both sides massacared POWs and treated them awfully.
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Jolthig
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Postby Jolthig » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:43 pm

Advocating murder:

Ansarullah wrote:
Then quit denying you advocated genocide. You obviously support those views.

A sexuality is not an ethnicity or race or even a group.
Plus I don't want all homosexuals dead by themselves, only those who commit sodomy, but I really do not want to go there.
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Ansarullah
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Postby Ansarullah » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:45 pm

The Houthi movement but in NS.
I'll be inactive-ish for awhile due to the fact that I not only burnt my wrist on a stove, but I'm 80% sure it got infected and made me sick, so I'll probably only be on once a day.

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Frisbeeteria
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:46 pm

[violet] wrote:So to some degree we must pick and choose which laws to follow. You mention Nazis, so let's take the case of Holocaust Denial. (We could do the same thing with homosexuality.) This is illegal in some places but not others. So why not ban Holocaust Denial?

Well, first we consider the laws of the territories that are most significant to us: the US (where we have servers), Canada (where we have servers), the UK, and Australia. Together these comprise about 75% of our traffic. Holocaust Denial is not a crime in any of these. (Hate speech generally is, but that's not the same thing.) Countries that do possess laws banning Holocaust Denial comprise about 3% of our traffic, or 5% if you include Germany.

So on balance, we don't believe we should take a law that applies to 5% of our players and impose it on the other 95%.

That said, if you deny the Holocaust, you're an idiot. But that's just my personal opinion..

(... and yes, she was warned for flaming for the 'idiot' comment ...)

In summary, not actionable. Ansarullah, this is NOT a discussion thread.

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Czervenika
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Postby Czervenika » Mon Sep 27, 2021 7:48 pm

Frisbeeteria wrote:
[violet] wrote:So to some degree we must pick and choose which laws to follow. You mention Nazis, so let's take the case of Holocaust Denial. (We could do the same thing with homosexuality.) This is illegal in some places but not others. So why not ban Holocaust Denial?

Well, first we consider the laws of the territories that are most significant to us: the US (where we have servers), Canada (where we have servers), the UK, and Australia. Together these comprise about 75% of our traffic. Holocaust Denial is not a crime in any of these. (Hate speech generally is, but that's not the same thing.) Countries that do possess laws banning Holocaust Denial comprise about 3% of our traffic, or 5% if you include Germany.

So on balance, we don't believe we should take a law that applies to 5% of our players and impose it on the other 95%.

That said, if you deny the Holocaust, you're an idiot. But that's just my personal opinion..

(... and yes, she was warned for flaming for the 'idiot' comment ...)

In summary, not actionable. Ansarullah, this is NOT a discussion thread.


Thank you for letting me know. I wasn't sure, but felt a need to report the comments just in case.
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Immortan Khan
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Postby Immortan Khan » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:04 pm

Can we get a second opinion, given NSG precedent that genuinely held beliefs doesn't prevent a poster from being hit with flaming or trolling?
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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:27 pm

May as well use this thread.

viewtopic.php?p=39017851#p39017851

Seems this user can't take a hint and continues to label people as "apostates". Pretty clear the user refuses to engage in an actual debate and has resorted to calling people names. Reads like trolling/baiting to me.
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Guy
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Postby Guy » Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:11 am

Frisbeeteria wrote:
[violet] wrote:So to some degree we must pick and choose which laws to follow. You mention Nazis, so let's take the case of Holocaust Denial. (We could do the same thing with homosexuality.) This is illegal in some places but not others. So why not ban Holocaust Denial?

Well, first we consider the laws of the territories that are most significant to us: the US (where we have servers), Canada (where we have servers), the UK, and Australia. Together these comprise about 75% of our traffic. Holocaust Denial is not a crime in any of these. (Hate speech generally is, but that's not the same thing.) Countries that do possess laws banning Holocaust Denial comprise about 3% of our traffic, or 5% if you include Germany.

So on balance, we don't believe we should take a law that applies to 5% of our players and impose it on the other 95%.

That said, if you deny the Holocaust, you're an idiot. But that's just my personal opinion..

(... and yes, she was warned for flaming for the 'idiot' comment ...)

In summary, not actionable. Ansarullah, this is NOT a discussion thread.

This argument would make sense if it made sense.

Holocaust denial is unlawful in Australia. I realise the irony of pointing this out in an argument about denying a fact, but hopefully moderation is not in the business of denying facts (even if it facilitates denial). The site's terms of use states any disputes must be settled according to the laws of Victoria, Australia, so it is clearly also the "most significant" jurisdiction.

But let's forget about the legal aspect of it. Allowing Holocaust denial places NS in the absolute fringes of even the worst of pure vile you can find on the Internet.

Holocaust denial calls millions of people liars on the basis of their ethnicity. At its core is the idea that Jewish people lie about the deaths of their closest family for political gain. It calls me a liar, and it calls my grandfather a liar. It humiliates people on a personal level, it diminishes their loss, it reenlivens their trauma. If someone posted "my grandfather died" and someone else continuously hounded them for lying about that for gain, we would ban them. This is no different. It is not legitimate political expression. It is hatred, it is defamatory, it is antisemitic. But the greatest irony is that calling someone who says those things about you 'an idiot' is apparently actionable.

The International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance says:
Holocaust denial in its various forms is an expression of antisemitism. The attempt to deny the genocide of the Jews is an effort to exonerate National Socialism and antisemitism from guilt or responsibility in the genocide of the Jewish people. Forms of Holocaust denial also include blaming the Jews for either exaggerating or creating the Shoah for political or financial gain as if the Shoah itself was the result of a conspiracy plotted by the Jews. In this, the goal is to make the Jews culpable and antisemitism once again legitimate.


I am not sure what else would make you reconsider this. It's not something I enjoy talking about. I hope I won't have to for very much longer, but there are some things that simply cannot be accepted, so I will continue.
Last edited by Guy on Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Visionary Union
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Postby Visionary Union » Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:19 am

I think it is more concerning why site moderation views holocaust denial as important discussion that belongs on this website.

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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Tue Sep 28, 2021 8:30 am

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=462608&p=39018186#p39018186

How is it that Pakistani players having their country called barbaric is offensive enough for a ban but saying that you want gay people dead isn’t even actionable? Moderation would never fucking tolerate that if he weren’t a Muslim, this is you guys tolerating Amin advocating halal rape all over again.
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Reploid Productions
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Postby Reploid Productions » Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:05 am

Punished UMN wrote:https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=462608&p=39018186#p39018186

How is it that Pakistani players having their country called barbaric is offensive enough for a ban but saying that you want gay people dead isn’t even actionable? Moderation would never fucking tolerate that if he weren’t a Muslim, this is you guys tolerating Amin advocating halal rape all over again.

You mean the guy who went straight to a 1-day ban despite no prior warning history for his massive amount of trolling throughout the thread? The "tiptoeing around 'kill the gays!'" was part of that ban. "given your posting history here" is generally mod-speak for "Good gods there are too many rulebreaking posts by this guy to bother quoting each and every one specifically."
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:06 am

Reploid Productions wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=462608&p=39018186#p39018186

How is it that Pakistani players having their country called barbaric is offensive enough for a ban but saying that you want gay people dead isn’t even actionable? Moderation would never fucking tolerate that if he weren’t a Muslim, this is you guys tolerating Amin advocating halal rape all over again.

You mean the guy who went straight to a 1-day ban despite no prior warning history for his massive amount of trolling throughout the thread? The "tiptoeing around 'kill the gays!'" was part of that ban. "given your posting history here" is generally mod-speak for "Good gods there are too many rulebreaking posts by this guy to bother quoting each and every one specifically."

That directly contradicts Fris up there explicitly saying it's not actionable, so which is it?
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Reploid Productions
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Postby Reploid Productions » Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:13 am

Punished UMN wrote:
Reploid Productions wrote:You mean the guy who went straight to a 1-day ban despite no prior warning history for his massive amount of trolling throughout the thread? The "tiptoeing around 'kill the gays!'" was part of that ban. "given your posting history here" is generally mod-speak for "Good gods there are too many rulebreaking posts by this guy to bother quoting each and every one specifically."

That directly contradicts Fris up there explicitly saying it's not actionable, so which is it?

Flares were sent up for a second opinion, Vis did a deeper dive into it, and his ruling overrode Fris' original ruling.
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Punished UMN
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Postby Punished UMN » Tue Sep 28, 2021 9:28 am

Reploid Productions wrote:
Punished UMN wrote:That directly contradicts Fris up there explicitly saying it's not actionable, so which is it?

Flares were sent up for a second opinion, Vis did a deeper dive into it, and his ruling overrode Fris' original ruling.

Thank you.
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Sedgistan
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Postby Sedgistan » Tue Sep 28, 2021 10:07 am

Guy wrote:<snip>

Please start a Discussion thread on this - both points you raised (i.e. including the legal situation). If the law is different to when Violet's post was made 9 years ago, we can flag it for admin to look at as well.


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