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Fascism compared to Iron Fist Consumerists?

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Shaduru
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Fascism compared to Iron Fist Consumerists?

Postby Shaduru » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:10 pm

I would expect Iron Fist Consumerists to be some kind of ultra-capitalist nation that only cares about the market. Instead, I get a direct comparison to Fascism, which is based on anti-ultra-capitalism values and on the "Nation above all". People from fascist countries where not poor and most of the fascist movements improved the economy while improving the general life of the people. Yes, we had crazy dictators, but everything they did was in order to benefit (or to what they think was benefit) the Nation and its people. They were most definetly not Iron Fist Consumerists. A great example of a fascist with many anti-capitalist views would be Mosley. But on the wiki, it is explained as Fascism. Someone care to explain?

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Postby Mountain Goat » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:14 pm

Shaduru wrote:People from fascist countries where not poor and most of the fascist movements improved the economy while improving the general life of the people.


Citation Needed

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Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:28 pm

Shaduru wrote:I would expect Iron Fist Consumerists to be some kind of ultra-capitalist nation that only cares about the market. Instead, I get a direct comparison to Fascism, which is based on anti-ultra-capitalism values and on the "Nation above all". People from fascist countries where not poor and most of the fascist movements improved the economy while improving the general life of the people. Yes, we had crazy dictators, but everything they did was in order to benefit (or to what they think was benefit) the Nation and its people. They were most definetly not Iron Fist Consumerists. A great example of a fascist with many anti-capitalist views would be Mosley. But on the wiki, it is explained as Fascism. Someone care to explain?


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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:34 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Shaduru wrote:I would expect Iron Fist Consumerists to be some kind of ultra-capitalist nation that only cares about the market. Instead, I get a direct comparison to Fascism, which is based on anti-ultra-capitalism values and on the "Nation above all". People from fascist countries where not poor and most of the fascist movements improved the economy while improving the general life of the people. Yes, we had crazy dictators, but everything they did was in order to benefit (or to what they think was benefit) the Nation and its people. They were most definetly not Iron Fist Consumerists. A great example of a fascist with many anti-capitalist views would be Mosley. But on the wiki, it is explained as Fascism. Someone care to explain?


*Laughs in Ugandan*


Idi Amin compares more closely to the Kims of North Korea than any Fascist leader, imo.
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Shaduru
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Postby Shaduru » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:36 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
Shaduru wrote:People from fascist countries where not poor and most of the fascist movements improved the economy while improving the general life of the people.


Citation Needed


Well, fascist Italy and Germany are prime examples of that, and they are (mostly Italy) the prime examples of Fascism. I do think that everybody knows that life in those two countries improved, especially in the Fascist Italy during the Great Depression, where the changes where not felt that much (As stated in the first episode of "WWII in colours" from the History Channel).

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Shaduru
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Postby Shaduru » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:39 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Shaduru wrote:I would expect Iron Fist Consumerists to be some kind of ultra-capitalist nation that only cares about the market. Instead, I get a direct comparison to Fascism, which is based on anti-ultra-capitalism values and on the "Nation above all". People from fascist countries where not poor and most of the fascist movements improved the economy while improving the general life of the people. Yes, we had crazy dictators, but everything they did was in order to benefit (or to what they think was benefit) the Nation and its people. They were most definetly not Iron Fist Consumerists. A great example of a fascist with many anti-capitalist views would be Mosley. But on the wiki, it is explained as Fascism. Someone care to explain?


*Laughs in Ugandan*


Idi Amin was an anti-communist, but only for the first part of his regime. And I do not believe he represents any political ideology besides "Dictatorship", since what it seems that he mostly wanted was...power. Nothing else. As crude as that. And went from being anti-communist to getting supported by the USSR

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Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:42 pm

Shaduru wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
*Laughs in Ugandan*


Idi Amin was an anti-communist, but only for the first part of his regime. And I do not believe he represents any political ideology besides "Dictatorship", since what it seems that he mostly wanted was...power. Nothing else. As crude as that. And went from being anti-communist to getting supported by the USSR


I meant to say Rwandan. sorry, I always mix those two countries up

I'm sure we all remember what happened in 1990s Rwanda
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:48 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Shaduru wrote:
Idi Amin was an anti-communist, but only for the first part of his regime. And I do not believe he represents any political ideology besides "Dictatorship", since what it seems that he mostly wanted was...power. Nothing else. As crude as that. And went from being anti-communist to getting supported by the USSR


I meant to say Rwandan. sorry, I always mix those two countries up

I'm sure we all remember what happened in 1990s Rwanda


Vile and evil though they were, I'm not sure I'd call the perpetrators of the Rwandan Genocide "Fascists". They were definitely ultranationalists/supremacists, however.
Last edited by Trollzyn the Infinite on Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shaduru
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Postby Shaduru » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:51 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Shaduru wrote:
Idi Amin was an anti-communist, but only for the first part of his regime. And I do not believe he represents any political ideology besides "Dictatorship", since what it seems that he mostly wanted was...power. Nothing else. As crude as that. And went from being anti-communist to getting supported by the USSR


I meant to say Rwandan. sorry, I always mix those two countries up

I'm sure we all remember what happened in 1990s Rwanda


I do not know if they were fascist or not, but surely you mean THE genocide. I mean, as I said, the fascist dictators did what they believed was better for the country, not really what was better. It went the same way in Germany. What I am trying to disprove is that fascists were some kind of authoritarian capitalists.

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Postby Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:57 pm

Pinochet fits "Iron fist Consumerists"

Being authoritarian doesn’t make you a fascist though, fascism is particular kind of authoritarianism that relies on popular revolution, wealth redistribution, and representation of all major class groups, all for the good of their nation
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:58 pm

Shaduru wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
I meant to say Rwandan. sorry, I always mix those two countries up

I'm sure we all remember what happened in 1990s Rwanda


I do not know if they were fascist or not, but surely you mean THE genocide. I mean, as I said, the fascist dictators did what they believed was better for the country, not really what was better. It went the same way in Germany. What I am trying to disprove is that fascists were some kind of authoritarian capitalists.


I don't think anyone with even a passing knowledge of Fascism would say that it's remotely capitalistic. But as for the nation classification, don't take it too seriously. NS nations are presented more like stereotypical parodies.
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Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana
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Postby Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:00 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Shaduru wrote:
Idi Amin was an anti-communist, but only for the first part of his regime. And I do not believe he represents any political ideology besides "Dictatorship", since what it seems that he mostly wanted was...power. Nothing else. As crude as that. And went from being anti-communist to getting supported by the USSR


I meant to say Rwandan. sorry, I always mix those two countries up

I'm sure we all remember what happened in 1990s Rwanda

The Hutu government wasn’t fascist by any means, just authoritarian

Paul Kagame, Rwanda’s current president and the man who was largely responsible for stopping the ethnic violence is widely considered to be fascist, even if he doesn’t name check it, since his entire ideology is based on keeping the country together through force, erasing all identities other than "Rwandan," improving worker’s rights, etc. He’s also not a big fan of democracy and strict anti-partisan
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Postby Giovenith » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:01 pm

I'm not going to lie, I thought this was going to be a rant about how people who watch Marvel's Iron Fist are somehow fascists. You know, typical internet hot take.
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Postby Shaduru » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:01 pm

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:Pinochet fits "Iron fist Consumerists"

Being authoritarian doesn’t make you a fascist though, fascism is particular kind of authoritarianism that relies on popular revolution, wealth redistribution, and representation of all major class groups, all for the good of their nation


Took that for granted, yes. I mostly agree with what you said at your first phrase.

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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:04 pm

Giovenith wrote:I'm not going to lie, I thought this was going to be a rant about how people who watch Marvel's Iron Fist are somehow fascists. You know, typical internet hot take.


The real fascists here are the ones who cancelled Iron Fist right when it was starting to improve after the terrible first season. :p
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Postby Estado Novo Portugues » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:08 pm

Capitalism is an economic system and fascism is a political one—the two are not mutually exclusive. It's quite possible for a nation to be pro-business and support free markets while having authoritarian government policies.

The modern Russia and China are current examples. Their economies have been capitalist for quite a while, judging by all the foreign companies doing business there (Vladimir Putin even had a Mercedes-Benz as his state car). But their government systems are still very totalitarian—autocracy, media censorship, political prisons, suppression of protests, etc—and very much "everything in the state, nothing against the state" (a Mussolini slogan). I'd classify those two as Iron Fist Consumerists. Someone mentioned Pinochet's Chile, I would also add Franco's Spain.
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Postby Genivaria » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:09 pm

Shaduru wrote:I would expect Iron Fist Consumerists to be some kind of ultra-capitalist nation that only cares about the market. Instead, I get a direct comparison to Fascism, which is based on anti-ultra-capitalism values and on the "Nation above all". People from fascist countries where not poor and most of the fascist movements improved the economy while improving the general life of the people. Yes, we had crazy dictators, but everything they did was in order to benefit (or to what they think was benefit) the Nation and its people. They were most definetly not Iron Fist Consumerists. A great example of a fascist with many anti-capitalist views would be Mosley. But on the wiki, it is explained as Fascism. Someone care to explain?

Hahahahaha! Not really no.
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Postby Shaduru » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:11 pm

Estado Novo Portugues wrote:Capitalism is an economic system and fascism is a political one—the two are not mutually exclusive. It's quite possible for a nation to be pro-business and support free markets while having authoritarian government policies.

The modern Russia and China are current examples. Their economies have been capitalist for quite a while, judging by all the foreign companies doing business there (Vladimir Putin even had a Mercedes-Benz as his state car). But their government systems are still very totalitarian—autocracy, media censorship, political prisons, suppression of protests, etc—and very much "everything in the state, nothing against the state" (a Mussolini slogan). I'd classify those two as Iron Fist Consumerists. Someone mentioned Pinochet's Chile, I would also add Franco's Spain.


I do believe that Fascism, especially British Fascism/Nazism (with the antissemistism) involves many anti-capitalist measures. I do not think you can call countries like Russia and China capitalists because of their free Market. But what about OUR countries? Salazar? What do you think?

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Postby Shaduru » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:13 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Shaduru wrote:I would expect Iron Fist Consumerists to be some kind of ultra-capitalist nation that only cares about the market. Instead, I get a direct comparison to Fascism, which is based on anti-ultra-capitalism values and on the "Nation above all". People from fascist countries where not poor and most of the fascist movements improved the economy while improving the general life of the people. Yes, we had crazy dictators, but everything they did was in order to benefit (or to what they think was benefit) the Nation and its people. They were most definetly not Iron Fist Consumerists. A great example of a fascist with many anti-capitalist views would be Mosley. But on the wiki, it is explained as Fascism. Someone care to explain?

Hahahahaha! Not really no.


I am talking about Germany And Italy mostly. Is there any opposition here? I need to know which fascist countries (not just dictatorships) had very poor people.

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Postby Pangurstan » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:15 pm

Iron fist consumerists is medium economic freedom, so not really ultra-capitalist. It’s the basic “oppressive dictatorship” classification.
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Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana
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Postby Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:16 pm

Shaduru wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Hahahahaha! Not really no.


I am talking about Germany And Italy mostly. Is there any opposition here? I need to know which fascist countries (not just dictatorships) had very poor people.

Well there are many, particularly Mobutu’s Zaire, that were poor, but they are beginning to economically boom right before they got overthrown (usually by a NATO backed group)
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Postby Shaduru » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:17 pm

Pangurstan wrote:Iron fist consumerists is medium economic freedom, so not really ultra-capitalist. It’s the basic “oppressive dictatorship” classification.


It says they REALLY focus on the economy, not caring about anything else. It sounds like some "oppressive materialistic Dictatorship", not an " oppressive Dictatorship "

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Shaduru
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Postby Shaduru » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:19 pm

Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:
Shaduru wrote:
I am talking about Germany And Italy mostly. Is there any opposition here? I need to know which fascist countries (not just dictatorships) had very poor people.

Well there are many, particularly Mobutu’s Zaire, that were poor, but they are beginning to economically boom right before they got overthrown (usually by a NATO backed group)


Can we please exclude Africa? I mean, some of the rulers that people here called "fascists" where only authoritarian and...Africa was poor either with Fascism, communism or capitalism.

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:20 pm

Estado Novo Portugues wrote:Capitalism is an economic system and fascism is a political one—the two are not mutually exclusive.


Except Fascism specifically rejects Capitalism and Socialism in favor of a Third Alternative (basically mixed-economy, a bit of both), so no, that isn't true. Certain political systems reject certain economic systems. Communism, for example, is both political and economic in nature due to it's inherently anti-Statist nature.

Shaduru wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Hahahahaha! Not really no.


I am talking about Germany And Italy mostly. Is there any opposition here? I need to know which fascist countries (not just dictatorships) had very poor people.


I really can't back up your argument here because I'm not certain of the socioeconomic status of the average Italian or German under their respective Fascist regimes, but I do know the Nazis eliminated the joblessness problem in Germany through conscription of the unemployed which was a really smart move on their part.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Mon Jan 13, 2020 7:24 pm

Shaduru wrote:
Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana wrote:Well there are many, particularly Mobutu’s Zaire, that were poor, but they are beginning to economically boom right before they got overthrown (usually by a NATO backed group)


Can we please exclude Africa? I mean, some of the rulers that people here called "fascists" where only authoritarian and...Africa was poor either with Fascism, communism or capitalism.


I don't think there ever were any Fascist African states tbh. Fascism requires nationalism and there's a distinct lack of ethnically, culturally, linguistically, & religiously homogeneous countries in Africa.

Every African dictator I can think of was almost always a self-serving autocrat that used quasi-nationalist rhetoric to ensure obedience and loyalty, excluding legitimate monarchies (like Ethiopia) and Gaddafi who was a Socialist.
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