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[DRAFT] Not a Good Sign

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Australian rePublic
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Founded: Mar 18, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:11 am

Authoritaria-Imperia wrote:
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Aussie is right, the fact that GPS is ubiquitous does kind of make street signs somewhat obsolete.

As someone who does daily home visits to folk using my satnav, I have to say the number one thing that makes life hard is houses that have names instead of numbers, as a house name gives you no indication of its relative position on a street.


Australian rePublic wrote:Sort of. It could still work, but it needs to take GPS into account

Okay. What if I create a validity requirement so that nations who get the issue all have weak Information Technology industries? I could then add something short to the introduction about the low quality of GPS navigation systems in @@NAME@@.

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Right now this issue is about twice as long as it ought to be. I suggest losing one option, and reducing the existing ones by a third or more.

Which parts would you say need shortening? I know you're the one who suggested a different introduction, and then approved my new one, but it feels long to me. Should I attempt to shorten it, or leave it as it is and cut down the options?

The other thing is the removal of an option. I'm leaning towards Option 4 — would you agree that that's the weakest link?

No. What I'm saying is why can't you they use GPS? Weak signals? Low population density? People can't afford GPS?
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Fri Jan 03, 2020 1:02 am

I might do a 4-option issue with 3 of the existing options and then one that advocates people using GPS.
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Australian rePublic
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Founded: Mar 18, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Australian rePublic » Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:15 am

Authoritaria-Imperia wrote:
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Aussie is right, the fact that GPS is ubiquitous does kind of make street signs somewhat obsolete.

As someone who does daily home visits to folk using my satnav, I have to say the number one thing that makes life hard is houses that have names instead of numbers, as a house name gives you no indication of its relative position on a street.


Australian rePublic wrote:Sort of. It could still work, but it needs to take GPS into account

Okay. What if I create a validity requirement so that nations who get the issue all have weak Information Technology industries? I could then add something short to the introduction about the low quality of GPS navigation systems in @@NAME@@.

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Right now this issue is about twice as long as it ought to be. I suggest losing one option, and reducing the existing ones by a third or more.

Which parts would you say need shortening? I know you're the one who suggested a different introduction, and then approved my new one, but it feels long to me. Should I attempt to shorten it, or leave it as it is and cut down the options?

The other thing is the removal of an option. I'm leaning towards Option 4 — would you agree that that's the weakest link?

I was thinking more along the lines of you're within 500 metres of your destination, and you don't know which exact street to vear into, because it's too close for your GPS to know where you are. Lack of visible numbers on houses makes driving impossible. The GPS will tell you when you arrive, but not which is number 63 (this is something I had to contend with when I used to deliver for UberEats). The lack of numbers makes life impossible. You don't know if you took the right turn off to take when the GPS tells you to turn left at Shell St, (or right, depending on which side of the road you drive on), so you're still not 100% sure if you're about to turn onto Shell St. Stuff like that (something I've also faced, IRL). Even though GPS exists, it's not perfect and physical street signs are required. Plus not mention the millions who have no GPS
Last edited by Australian rePublic on Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Candlewhisper Archive
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Postby Candlewhisper Archive » Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:04 am

No, I don't think you should validity lock it. GPS is common enough now that even people in third world countries may have access to it.

Instead, I'd suggest changing the underlying dilemma to one that can't be solved by GPS.

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Authoritaria-Imperia
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I've just done a pretty good-size edit. Better? :)

Postby Authoritaria-Imperia » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:08 pm

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Right now this issue is about twice as long as it ought to be. I suggest losing one option, and reducing the existing ones by a third or more.

Australian rePublic wrote:
Authoritaria-Imperia wrote:Okay. What if I create a validity requirement so that nations who get the issue all have weak Information Technology industries? I could then add something short to the introduction about the low quality of GPS navigation systems in @@NAME@@.

No. What I'm saying is why can't you they use GPS? Weak signals? Low population density? People can't afford GPS?

I was thinking more along the lines of you're within 500 metres of your destination, and you don't know which exact street to vear into, because it's too close for your GPS to know where you are. Lack of visible numbers on houses makes driving impossible. The GPS will tell you when you arrive, but not which is number 63 (this is something I had to contend with when I used to deliver for UberEats). The lack of numbers makes life impossible. You don't know if you took the right turn off to take when the GPS tells you to turn left at Shell St, (or right, depending on which side of the road you drive on), so you're still not 100% sure if you're about to turn onto Shell St. Stuff like that (something I've also faced, IRL). Even though GPS exists, it's not perfect and physical street signs are required. Plus not mention the millions who have no GPS

USS Monitor wrote:I might do a 4-option issue with 3 of the existing options and then one that advocates people using GPS.

Candlewhisper Archive wrote:No, I don't think you should validity lock it. GPS is common enough now that even people in third world countries may have access to it.

Instead, I'd suggest changing the underlying dilemma to one that can't be solved by GPS.

Okay, guys. Sorry for the period of inactivity. I've corrected the issue to be one of contradictory street signs, rather than of sparse street signs. I've mentioned GPS briefly as well, and I think the issue is no longer as solvable by GPS. Do you all agree?

@Candlewhisper Archive, I also shortened the issue and took out Option 4 (the one about mandatory signage education). I think the new length is much more appropriate.

I made some general edits too. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.
Last edited by Authoritaria-Imperia on Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Australian rePublic
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Australian rePublic » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:46 pm

A giant concert venue would stick out like dogs' balls. Maybe make it a less obvious location
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Why stylised as "rePublic"
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Authoritaria-Imperia
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Postby Authoritaria-Imperia » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:51 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:A giant concert venue would stick out like dogs' balls. Maybe make it a less obvious location

Does this not sort of emphasise the poor state of signage — that it's so bad, even big concert venues are impossible to find? I say this because the event ruined by bad signage needs to be big for it to spark a big debate.

The other thing I could do is make the singer a foreigner who is more lost than locals because he has no familiarity with the street signs. Would this work?
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:08 am

Authoritaria-Imperia wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:A giant concert venue would stick out like dogs' balls. Maybe make it a less obvious location

Does this not sort of emphasise the poor state of signage — that it's so bad, even big concert venues are impossible to find? I say this because the event ruined by bad signage needs to be big for it to spark a big debate.

The other thing I could do is make the singer a foreigner who is more lost than locals because he has no familiarity with the street signs. Would this work?

Yea, just make that clearer
Disclaimer: In-Character posts are NOT a reflection of the real world Australian government, any government departments, or any Australian states or territories. I have no authority over real world government decisions. This nation does not reflect my views, as I am trying to unlock banners
As a centrist, I have been called both an extreme leftist and an extreme right-winger.
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Why stylised as "rePublic"
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Authoritaria-Imperia
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Postby Authoritaria-Imperia » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:18 am

Australian rePublic wrote:
Authoritaria-Imperia wrote:Does this not sort of emphasise the poor state of signage — that it's so bad, even big concert venues are impossible to find? I say this because the event ruined by bad signage needs to be big for it to spark a big debate.

The other thing I could do is make the singer a foreigner who is more lost than locals because he has no familiarity with the street signs. Would this work?

Yea, just make that clearer

Done. George Crooked now has a foreign driver. Thanks for your help! :)
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:44 am

You need to clarify, in your issue, that you're refering to the street signs rather than road signs. Also, look into the clusterfrak of the 2018 Commonwealth Games where a bus driver drove in the complete opposite direction and ended up at Brisbane Airport rather than Coolangatta (my guess is that he typed in the wrong airport into the GPS). This driver was from Queensland, but an area of QLD so far away from the Gold Coast that he was unfamiliar with it. This incident will probably help with your issue
Disclaimer: In-Character posts are NOT a reflection of the real world Australian government, any government departments, or any Australian states or territories. I have no authority over real world government decisions. This nation does not reflect my views, as I am trying to unlock banners
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Why stylised as "rePublic"
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sun Jan 12, 2020 4:47 am

The Sherpa Empire wrote:**snip**
The Sherpa Empire's capital district is very rural, but that's unusual. Previous issues have often assumed that @@CAPITAL@@ is a large city.

I don't like the assumption that @@CAPITAL@@ is the largest city in the country. I've tried to get it changed before, whereby we have a seperate @@CAPITAL@@ and @@LARGESTCITY@@ field for whomever desires it. I tried and tried, but I don't see it happening now.
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Why stylised as "rePublic"
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Postby Bears Armed » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:40 am

Australian rePublic wrote:You need to clarify, in your issue, that you're refering to the street signs rather than road signs. Also, look into the clusterfrak of the 2018 Commonwealth Games where a bus driver drove in the complete opposite direction and ended up at Brisbane Airport rather than Coolangatta (my guess is that he typed in the wrong airport into the GPS). This driver was from Queensland, but an area of QLD so far away from the Gold Coast that he was unfamiliar with it. This incident will probably help with your issue

England has a city called Leeds, which is in [the historic county of] Yorkshire and approximately two hundred miles north of London. England also has a historic building called Leeds Castle, which is in the county of Kent (next to a village called Leeds) and approximately fifty miles south-east of London.
There have been reliably-reported cases of foreign tourists travelling from London to the city of Leeds and then asking taxi drivers to take them to Leeds Castle...
Last edited by Bears Armed on Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Authoritaria-Imperia
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Postby Authoritaria-Imperia » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:04 am

Australian rePublic wrote:You need to clarify, in your issue, that you're refering to the street signs rather than road signs. Also, look into the clusterfrak of the 2018 Commonwealth Games where a bus driver drove in the complete opposite direction and ended up at Brisbane Airport rather than Coolangatta (my guess is that he typed in the wrong airport into the GPS). This driver was from Queensland, but an area of QLD so far away from the Gold Coast that he was unfamiliar with it. This incident will probably help with your issue

Thanks for the reference. As for the street signs vs. road signs thing — I only ever refer to "street signs" or "signage". Is misinterpretation still possible…?
Australian rePublic wrote:
The Sherpa Empire wrote:**snip**
The Sherpa Empire's capital district is very rural, but that's unusual. Previous issues have often assumed that @@CAPITAL@@ is a large city.

I don't like the assumption that @@CAPITAL@@ is the largest city in the country. I've tried to get it changed before, whereby we have a seperate @@CAPITAL@@ and @@LARGESTCITY@@ field for whomever desires it. I tried and tried, but I don't see it happening now.

I'm not sure that that's a problem for this issue… Even if the capital is rural or small, a concert can be held there. The issue doesn't call the capital industrial or crowded.
Bears Armed wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:You need to clarify, in your issue, that you're refering to the street signs rather than road signs. Also, look into the clusterfrak of the 2018 Commonwealth Games where a bus driver drove in the complete opposite direction and ended up at Brisbane Airport rather than Coolangatta (my guess is that he typed in the wrong airport into the GPS). This driver was from Queensland, but an area of QLD so far away from the Gold Coast that he was unfamiliar with it. This incident will probably help with your issue

England has a city called Leeds, which is in [the historic county of] Yorkshire and approximately two hundred miles north of London. England also has a historic building called Leeds Castle, which is in the county of Kent (next to a village called Leeds) and approximately fifty miles south-east of London.
There have been reliably-reported cases of foreign tourists travelling from London to the city of Leeds and then asking taxi drivers to take them to Leeds Castle...

Yikes, that's confusing… :/
Last edited by Authoritaria-Imperia on Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:07 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:20 pm

Remember this post by CWA? Where he explains the difference between a street sign and road sign? You should do the same
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Much better!

It's still clear to me if you're talking about street signs or road signs though.

To be clear.

Street sign:

(Image)

Road sign:

(Image)
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Authoritaria-Imperia
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Postby Authoritaria-Imperia » Sun Jan 12, 2020 7:30 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:Remember this post by CWA? Where he explains the difference between a street sign and road sign? You should do the same
Candlewhisper Archive wrote:Much better!

It's still clear to me if you're talking about street signs or road signs though.

To be clear.

Street sign:

(Image)

Road sign:

(Image)

Done. Thanks for your help! :)
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Authoritaria-Imperia
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Is this thing ready…?

Postby Authoritaria-Imperia » Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:35 pm

Okey-dokey, so it's been forty-eight hours with no more feedback, and I've had the issue out for two weeks. Is this thing fit for submission now…? Or should I change "DRAFT" in the title to "LAST CALL" and give it a few days instead…?
(As I've mentioned before, I don't have a lot of experience with the issue-drafting process.)
Thanks in advance. :)
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:20 am

I would change the initial use of 'street signs' to 'street navigation and street name signs', or something like that. The rest can stay the way they are. Just change the first one
Last edited by Australian rePublic on Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Disclaimer: In-Character posts are NOT a reflection of the real world Australian government, any government departments, or any Australian states or territories. I have no authority over real world government decisions. This nation does not reflect my views, as I am trying to unlock banners
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Why stylised as "rePublic"
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:26 am

RE: Description. The streets are named (well, they are named if you use the Western system. If you use the Japanese system, if I'm not mistsking (and I could be), they're probably not named. But whether or not streets are named is a different issue in and of itself), Where was I? Oh yes: RE: Description, whether or not streets are named is irrelevant. The issue is a lack of adequate signage
Last edited by Australian rePublic on Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Disclaimer: In-Character posts are NOT a reflection of the real world Australian government, any government departments, or any Australian states or territories. I have no authority over real world government decisions. This nation does not reflect my views, as I am trying to unlock banners
As a centrist, I have been called both an extreme leftist and an extreme right-winger.
From Sydney, NSW. From Greek ancestry. Orthodox Christian.
Why stylised as "rePublic"
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Authoritaria-Imperia
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Postby Authoritaria-Imperia » Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:17 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:I would change the initial use of 'street signs' to 'street navigation and street name signs', or something like that. The rest can stay the way they are. Just change the first one

Wham, bam, done. :)
Australian rePublic wrote:RE: Description. The streets are named (well, they are named if you use the Western system. If you use the Japanese system, if I'm not mistsking (and I could be), they're probably not named. But whether or not streets are named is a different issue in and of itself), Where was I? Oh yes: RE: Description, whether or not streets are named is irrelevant. The issue is a lack of adequate signage

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here… could you elaborate please?
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:22 am

Australian rePublic wrote:RE: Description. The streets are named (well, they are named if you use the Western system. If you use the Japanese system, if I'm not mistsking (and I could be), they're probably not named. But whether or not streets are named is a different issue in and of itself), Where was I? Oh yes: RE: Description, whether or not streets are named is irrelevant. The issue is a lack of adequate signage


Never been to Japan, but I saw something on TV where people were walking around Tokyo, and the streets appeared to be named, with signs at intersections to tell you which street you were on.

Chinese streets are also named and marked, usually with both characters and pinyin.

Naming streets is not an East vs. West thing.
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Australian rePublic
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Postby Australian rePublic » Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:34 am

Authoritaria-Imperia wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:I would change the initial use of 'street signs' to 'street navigation and street name signs', or something like that. The rest can stay the way they are. Just change the first one

Wham, bam, done. :)
Australian rePublic wrote:RE: Description. The streets are named (well, they are named if you use the Western system. If you use the Japanese system, if I'm not mistsking (and I could be), they're probably not named. But whether or not streets are named is a different issue in and of itself), Where was I? Oh yes: RE: Description, whether or not streets are named is irrelevant. The issue is a lack of adequate signage

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here… could you elaborate please?

In your description, you said that streets are lacking names. Streets aren't lacking names, they're lacking signage


USS Monitor wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:RE: Description. The streets are named (well, they are named if you use the Western system. If you use the Japanese system, if I'm not mistsking (and I could be), they're probably not named. But whether or not streets are named is a different issue in and of itself), Where was I? Oh yes: RE: Description, whether or not streets are named is irrelevant. The issue is a lack of adequate signage


Never been to Japan, but I saw something on TV where people were walking around Tokyo, and the streets appeared to be named, with signs at intersections to tell you which street you were on.

Chinese streets are also named and marked, usually with both characters and pinyin.

Naming streets is not an East vs. West thing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes ... ing_system
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Why stylised as "rePublic"
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Thu Jan 16, 2020 12:30 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:
USS Monitor wrote:
Never been to Japan, but I saw something on TV where people were walking around Tokyo, and the streets appeared to be named, with signs at intersections to tell you which street you were on.

Chinese streets are also named and marked, usually with both characters and pinyin.

Naming streets is not an East vs. West thing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes ... ing_system


That just says they write the address backward, like "Iowa, Des Moines, Forest St 200" instead of "200 Forest St Des Moines, Iowa." It's not a whole different system, and it doesn't say anything about street names.
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Authoritaria-Imperia
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Postby Authoritaria-Imperia » Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:49 pm

Australian rePublic wrote:In your description, you said that streets are lacking names. Streets aren't lacking names, they're lacking signage

You're right. New edit done, and description shortened.
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Authoritaria-Imperia
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Ready?

Postby Authoritaria-Imperia » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:00 am

Ookay. New version, new edits (general shortening and outcome changes), and I may submit soon. Is this ready?

I've mentioned a couple times that I'm not experienced with issue-drafting, and so I'd like to get some input before I turn this in.
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